Metro/Tram Service in Cork City

BlinkingLights

The issue as I see it is that the South Ring N40 is peaking at 100,000 journeys a day on some sections and that's only thing to get worse.

You can't realistically build more road capacity into the city but you could put in a decent public transit system to move traffic off the roads and keep things sane.

Also if you want high density city centres, you have to have trams (Dublin needs a metro at this stage) as otherwise you can't get people in and out. It's physically impossible to have a busy city centre that is totally car dependent as you can't park them nor can you get them in and out efficiently.

At this stage Dublin should have probably at least two metro lines and a Luas to every major suburb.

Cork should have at least two tram lines. Without that there isn't going to be a dense city centre full of office jobs as people won't be able to get to them

We are skimping on public transport infrastructure and it is going to kill progress here in the medium term never mind the long term!

This isn't about Dublin vs Cork and frankly the snipes and jibes are infantile and parochial.

Neither city has adequate transport infrastructure.

The three smaller cities need proper transit too. BRT and at the very least frequent buses.

At present public transport here is a joke. In the smaller cities it just doesn't work and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where the assumption is the transport system doesn't work so people don't use it or plan their lives around it and then it doesn't get the passenger numbers and planners assume no demand and cut resources further.

An element of it is summed up by that "dart to Dingle" post.

Ireland doesn't understand cities and the public is generally hostile to them and begrudges their development. We've always had people mocking jackeens, ripping Cork apart at any and every opportunity and we have a history of basically sabotaging urban Ireland

Why is Cork missing public transport?
Why is Dublin city centre such a mess?
Why was Limerick allowed to have some of the worst sink estates I've ever seen?
Why has Galway got totally inadequate road networks?

Because Irish politics is driven by begrudgery and idealising rurality.

It remains one of the least urbanised developed countries and that is nothing to be proud of. it just means we can't plan and when petrol, diesel and other fossil fuels become unaffordable (which will happen eventually) vast swathes of housing here become inaccessible or economically unviable.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Ireland doesn't understand cities and the public is generally hostile to them and begrudges their development.

So you, as someone from Ireland, don't understand cities?
The vast majority of people on this thread are for the development, so what exactly do you have that backs up the general hostility theory?

BlinkingLights

munstermagic11 wrote: »

So you, as someone from Ireland, don't understand cities?
The vast majority of people on this thread are for the development, so what exactly do you have that backs up the general hostility theory?

That every urban area in Ireland is a planning disaster and has been since the 50s. That's been driven by policies of suburbanization, ribbon development, unsustainable settlement patterns and a complete refusal by the political system to do anything sensible about it.

This isn't a dictatorship and clearly there's a strong demand for scatter development - it's why our commutes are enormous, it's why public transport here is expensive, it's broadband is on average so poor, it's why lakes are full of raw sewage.

We have no serious city development with any kind of vision.

People vote for this.

Candlewick

There has been a lot of short sightedness from the point of view of forward planning.

Ludo

BlinkingLights wrote: »

People vote for this.

How exactly? It is not a priority and isn't likely to be any time soon.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BlinkingLights wrote: »

it's broadband is on average so poor

I'm no expert on city development, and have no intention to pretend otherwise.
However, on average, Internet access in Ireland is not poor. We are probably towards the (maybe upper) middle in terms of European ranking, and while we are not South Korea (very few are) we are punching above our weight Internationally (hence why so many Tech giants are here).

BlinkingLights

Ludo wrote: »

How exactly? It is not a priority and isn't likely to be any time soon.

In more socially developed and urbanised countries that actually have local government with a role in transport funding and planning and real accountability to the citizens of a city or town, it is a priority.

In Ireland urban issues become national political footballs and simply don't get done.

We won't ever get any progress on these issues when local government doesn't have any legal authority over anything - everything is centralised into national agencies : CIE, Transport for Ireland, TII, OPW (Cork Flooding), and various government departments.

What do city councils even do here anymore?

The proposal in Cork is to merge the city council with a vast rural area the size of nearly half of Northern Ireland because it's also called Cork. The result will be even worse lack of focus on urban areas and on rural areas giving you the worst form of mediocrity.

In most of Europe (most of the world in fact) public transport is a huge part of local government. It's also a key electoral issue in many places.

I genuinely don't think Ireland's systems or political parties understand or care about urban spaces.

I mean they even abolished town councils entirely instead of providing meaningful reform and ensuring that every town has one. It's absolutely bizarre to have no urban councils of any type in towns and villages. How exactly do they expect towns to organise themselves without any political/administrative structure?

The city/county mergers are just more of that. Notions of efficiency by removing democratic accountability. So your local priorities are being set by a bunch of people who may have never set foot in your city or town and may begrudge it every cent of investment as they only really care about their own constituency.

BlinkingLights

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I'm no expert on city development, and have no intention to pretend otherwise.
However, on average, Internet access in Ireland is not poor. We are probably towards the (maybe upper) middle in terms of European ranking, and while we are not South Korea (very few are) we are punching above our weight Internationally (hence why so many Tech giants are here).

We rank 24th in the world for average speed and 31st for peak speed and we are slipping backwards as other countries are getting much more FTTH roll out due to having better planning.

Large businesses don't use residential internet access services and locate in business parks with direct fibre access. The state of Ireland's residential internet access is totally irrelevant​ to them. Tech giants couldn't care less what Eir or Virgin provide to Mrs Murphy other than where they're selling directly to Irish end users. For their offices, all they want is a bundle of fibres and onward connectivity to the US and Europe.

Ireland went through a considerable period of having ridiculous broadband​. What's changed things has been a technology shift to more distributed networks - small cabinets providing service to 100 homes rather than big exchanges connecting thousands.
We weren't able to connect a large % of homes to ADSL because we live in scatter and ribbon development which is why we languished for so long.

Broadband aside, that's still why public transport is not viable in a lot of areas - low density quasi urban ribbons and ultra low density badly planned sprawl is extremely expensive to service and oftentimes totally impractical as the clusters of end users are so scattered.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Tech giants couldn't care less what Eir or Virgin provide to Mrs Murphy other than where they're selling directly to Irish end users. For their offices, all they want is a bundle of fibres and onward connectivity to the US and Europe.

It does matter to them when Eir/Vodafone/Virgin are the last mile provider.

So 24th in the world for average speed and 31st for peak speed, which is about what I suspected. That's not poor, esp considering our economic issues for the last decade.

So back to the discussion on the metro/tram in Cork; what are the costs of the project and it running expenses? Is it affordable, viable, required, profitable (or close to break even), and ran efficiently?

BlinkingLights

Justice Large Person wrote: »

It does matter to them when Eir/Vodafone/Virgin are the last mile provider.

If you're a big user like a multinational or large Irish company you'll be on direct fibre connectivity via whoever you want. It's not going to be a case of using small office or residential broadband.

j8wk2feszrnpao

BlinkingLights wrote: »

If you're a big user like a multinational or large Irish company you'll be on direct fibre connectivity via whoever you want. It's not going to be a case of using small office or residential broadband.

Of course.
But Ireland's (regular end users) broadband on average is not poor. Your own stats showed that.

And your response to the thread topic and the questions posed? What's the cost of implementing the tram/metro? How we fund it? etc.....

(Not looking to have an argument. Simply looking for answers to the criticism and many stating this is a need for the city).

BlinkingLights

We fund it like we fund anything else. It's a piece of essential infrastructure. We fund extremely expensive non profit making road projects all the time, yet for some reason a piece of public transport infrastructure seems to have to pass a similar business plan test to opening a restaurant or a supermarket in Ireland.

We aren't spending enough on public transport / mass transit infrastructure at all.

You realise even in the USA almost all public transport systems run at a loss because they're consider to be essential to make cities work.
The same applies on the continent.

These systems mean increased quality of life, reduced environmental impact, increased ability to develop a city centre.

If you don't have working mass transit the classic dense downtown business district and thriving city centre is basically impossible as you cannot manage to get people in and out in cars and park them.

Plenty of small and medium cities all over Europe manage to get trams up and running. The only reason we can't is because of a political decision that this isn't worth doing.

Finding the funds for this ahead of the M20 for example would benefit hundreds of thousands of people and should be a far higher priority than a motorway to Limerick but, we prioritise long distance roads ahead of everything else.

We have the resources and access for funding. We are deciding this isn't a priority

j8wk2feszrnpao

So you don't know how much it will cost, ok. We had a contributor who stated that "A luas line is about €40m per kilometer in Dublin". I have no idea how true that is, but those are the type of details required to have a serious discussion on a metro in Cork.

The road infrastructure could claim to be partly paid/financed by motor tax, levy on fuel, VAT from cars/insurance, tolls,.... If you want to divert that away from roads, ok; but not everyone (and nothing to do with politics) would agree. Certainly not anyone from Limerick would see no benefit of a metro in Cork, or the haulage industry, etc....

You mention cities all over Europe, but they also typically pay higher tax rates. Are you in favor for a jump in tax to pay for this? Maybe we do need to pay more if we require a certain standard in services.

And yes I know it doesn't have to profitable in itself, but the cost of running it would need to be considered (little point in it making a huge loss).

BlinkingLights

It works out at €22.9m/km in Paris and a lot of the Cork routes are potentially reusable old railway lines. You could be looking at something like intelligent signalling and single track sections allowing two way sections in the city centre - used extensively in narrow cities like Bilbao etc.

It's roughly 20km from Carrigaline via the City Centre to Ballincollig.

You're looking at about €500m to so a two line system with 10km do Ballinncollig and 10 to Carrigaline - at normal northern European construction prices.

Limerick to Cork motorway would cost probably about €1bn and will likely have far less benefit in terms of impact to day to day life of populations or people and won't generate revenue at all.

A Cork City two line tram and a smaller system in Limerick City could be done for the same price and would benefit FAR more people.

I would rather see modest upgrade to the N20 to make it safer and a huge investment into the two cities transit networks and maybe look at doing an M20 later.

Cork will choke on its own traffic soon and Limerick will follow while we have a fixation on lashing money on a long distance motorway that would be impossible to justify given the populations involved and volume of traffic on the N20 by most European standards.

The priority in Munster should be getting the cities future proofed and working as major hubs. Not slashing money on very lightly used motorway.

That road will probably get built while Cork will be dealing with 100,000+ cars on the N40 every day and Ireland will be whacked with major fines for failing to make progress on pollution and CO2 output

Candlewick

I would rather see modest upgrade to the N20 to make it safer and a huge investment into the two cities transit networks and maybe look at doing an M20 later.

Good point BlinkingLights!!

whisky_galore

professore wrote: »

I would settle for a working reliable bus service.

LOL.:pac:

BlinkingLights

whisky_galore wrote: »

LOL.:pac:

Well that would be nice anywhere in Ireland.

Dublin Bus isn't great by international standards, yet in comparison to services to what's being provided in Cork (when it's not on strike) it's a phenomenally good service.

If Bus Eireann is reformed, one of the things that should absolutely happen is Cork Bus with control and management being transferred to an agency of Cork City and County Councils with full local autonomy to control routes.

Something like a Cork Area Transit System (CATS) might make sense where the management of routes, the planning, the franchising etc all happens with proper local control, much like any other city in Europe or the US.

namloc1980

According to the Indo today's Capital Plan announcement includes a Luas for Cork! Could it happen??

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/varadkars-116bn-masterplan-revealed-four-new-luas-lines-an-atlantic-corridor-and-500000-new-homes-36609590.html

whisky_galore

I'll believe it when I'll see some shovels out, or maybe not...

(see Event Centre)

hufpc8w3adnk65

Could be great if planned out

snotboogie

RTE are reporting 

Improved bus corridors that include cycle-lanes will be built in Cork and Galway.

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0216/941116-govt-project-2040-plan/
Which is essentially a step down from BRT, never mind light rail.

namloc1980

snotboogie wrote: »

RTE are reporting 

https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0216/941116-govt-project-2040-plan/
Which is essentially a step down from BRT, never mind light rail.

RTE behind the curve as usual. They're the last place you should go to for up to date news.

Ludo

namloc1980 wrote: »

RTE behind the curve as usual. They're the last place you should go to for up to date news.

Bet they turn out to be right though.

Brussels Sprout

Found these in the 2018-2027 document:

In line with the National Transport Authority’s
Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area
2016-2035, undertake appraisal, planning and
design of LUAS network expansion to Bray,
Finglas, Lucan, Poolbeg and a light rail corridor
for Cork in the later stages of the period of the
Cork Transport Strategy which is being finalised.

A Cork Transport Strategy is also being finalised by
the relevant Local Authorities in partnership with
the NTA which includes proposals for a revised bus
system for Cork and enhancements to the commuter
rail service in Cork including additional stations and
rail fleet. This transport strategy will also evaluate the
potential of a Bus Rapid Transit or Light Rail corridor
to serve the increased population growth as envisaged
by the NPF and subject to the necessary development
consolidation by the Local Authorities to support the
appraisal, planning and design for provision of such a
high capacity corridor in the later stages of the period
of the strategy. BusConnects programmes will be
delivered for Galway and Cork to include new bus
fleets; bus lanes with segregated cycling; revised bus
service networks; and park-and-ride facilities.
As the other cities develop transport strategies,
investment will be available for transport related
projects.

Cork BusConnects
Current Status: Cork Transport Strategy being
developed in partnership with the NTA.
Estimated Cost: €200 million
Estimated Completion Date: 2027
A revised bus network for Cork City is being
developed as part of the Cork Transport Strategy.
Cork BusConnects will comprise the delivery of
crucial bus corridors, enhanced services, cashless
fares and account-based ticketing. As part of
this programme delivery, a network of park and
ride sites, serviced by the more efficient bus
network, will be put in place. Cork BusConnects
has enormous potential to radically transform the
bus system in Cork, making it much more efficient,
reliable and attractive to new passengers.

run_Forrest_run

as long as there will be a stop at the Event Centre it'll be all grand :rolleyes:

AugustusMinimus

I see they are aiming for the population of Cork to grow by 100,000 in the next 20 years. If most of this could be focused on the docklands and other brownfield sites it would be excellent.

Cork hasn’t been fully ruined yet by sprawls thankfully. Hopefully this is an opportunity to raise population density before a light rail system become justifiable.

marno21

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I see they are aiming for the population of Cork to grow by 100,000 in the next 20 years. If most of this could be focused on the docklands and other brownfield sites it would be excellent.

Cork hasn’t been fully ruined yet by sprawls thankfully. Hopefully this is an opportunity to raise population density before a light rail system become justifiable.

Given the amount of time it takes to get these things done in Ireland, hopefully the Rapid Transit (be it bus or light rail based) system gets into planning and design at least soon. Especially so that route corridors etc can be protected.

JupiterKid

A light rail/tram system running east-west from Mahon Point via the city Centre, UCC and onto Ballincollig perhaps passing the CUH and CIT would be brilliant, but even a guided dedicated busway along this route would be great.

I just hope that these plans materialises for Cork’s sake. The city really has a lot of potential to grow.

Still, the M20 is also needed - badly. Cork actually had a very good LUTS plan from the 1970s which was largely implemented by 2000, but over the past 15 or so years the city and county lost out on major infrastructural investment that went elsewhere. The time to correct that neglect is long overdue.

MrDerp

I'm struggling with the crayons on this one. There's very few suburban -> urban routes with room for a bus lane, let alone 2-way light rail on top of it. Some major CPO might be required.

This might only make sense as (gulp) two disconnected lines without a tunnel or some clever new bridges.

The south docklands would have to be in scope as the only residential high density in the city, and from here surely you'd take the easy off-street alignment as far as CityGate, with a depot in the docklands area. From there, however, I think the entry to the city is problematic.

Perhaps?
- CityGate [Old Backrock Line]
- Skehard Rd [Line]
- Blackrock [Line]
- Pairc Ui Chaoimh (Marina)
- Marina Park
- Monahan Rd
- South Link* OR Custom House Quay**

South link feels like a dead end without a tunnel. Could go up Copley st and Sullivan's quay to South Gate bridge, then to event centre but no way to hard turn west from here. Gets messy if it continues to St Finbarr's too in terms of fully closing roads to traffic.

From Custom House Quay [Change here for Irish rail, via new footbridge to Horgan's Quay]
- South Mall (via lapps quay)
- Grand Parade
- Washington St (Is left turn possible? Traffic restrictions?)
- UCC (Western Rd)
- Victoria X
- CUH (Serious garden CPO trimming required length of Wilton Rd)
- Bishopstown
- Curraheen P&R
- Ballincollig (promised later)

*From Kennedy park turn through marina terrace and cut through Shalom park. CPO areas either side of south link (OB Bathrooms, Modern Tyres etc and bits of crap on the other side) Cross the link or attempt a simple under pass with a portal from shalom park to other side (horrific to build, but link has to be crossed somewhere), or do it on stilts!

** Signalised junction at Albert Rd, Victoria Rd, CPR junction. Custom house quay via new combined pedestrian and tram bridge

This looks very messy to me due to the lack of 4-lane thoroughfares to work with. I could see a big hoo-haa from the chamber of commerce around the city centre chopping this in two, and there's a general lack of space for P&R throughout the eastern sections. It's a topologically possible East West route but it would require some serious CPO and traffic management. Would the frequency be anything like Luas for Cork use? Or would it be a little more manageable?

I also don't see a clean way to include both CUH and CIT, although a turn from Curraheen P&R into CIT might offer a nice depot solution. A link road to Curraheen P&R from N71 would also be ideal. This would have great potential to take citybound traffic from N71 and N22 out of scope.

The lack of space (realistic within topology constraints) for a P&R / Depot or even Terminus anywhere from Douglas to Mahon is a pain. A tram system at street level will clearly compromise some serious arteries. I could easily see a line ending at South Link / Lapps Quay and secondary line ending at Grand Parade or earlier! But this straight-through would get people reliably from Kent Station to CityGate / UCC / CUH / CIT. If Curraheen is chosen for the new acute hospital, better again.

marno21

MrDerp wrote: »

I also don't see a clean way to include both CUH and CIT, although a turn from Curraheen P&R into CIT might offer a nice depot solution. A link road to Curraheen P&R from N71 would also be ideal. This would have great potential to take citybound traffic from N71 and N22 out of scope.

I am delighted someone else has come out with this.

By the time this system is up and running, there will be a North Ring Road hopefully built from Blarney through to Ballincollig ending at J1 on the N40 (soon to be M40). There is quite a lot of space here for a park and ride, and with there being a possibility of a new motorway M71 from Ballinhassig to meet the M40 at J1, it would be ideal for a park and ride.

If a light rail service did come about, you could see severe restrictions on cars on streets to facilitate the service. The reason there is no room for bus lanes is due to the road space given over to cars