How would YOU get more EVs on the road

stesaurus

SteM wrote: »

Who said a public transport system that suited everyone? They're your words. I just suggest having a public transport system that is usable.

So you're suggesting essentially killing the public transport system in Dublin in order to increase EV uptake? It's as unrealistic a proposal as me proposing a 95% subsidy for new EV sales imo. We should be trying to get taxis out of bus lanes, not trying to get more vehicles into them.

Look we're going around in circles here of missing each other's point. I don't want to kill off public transport.
All I'm saying is it is a hell of a lot easier to move the vast majority of motorists from ice to EV rather than public transport.
Allowing EV's to use bus lanes would encourage uptake no doubt about it. Numbers are still tiny and there wouldn't be any real impact for the short term. After EVs reach critical mass then remove that privilege.

In an ideal world there would be a mixed approach with private vehicles nowhere near city centres but we are a few generations away from that possibility.

Calahonda52

zilog_jones wrote: »

There need to be better rights for charging installations for tenants and those with only street parking.

I also think there should be more effort from commercial entities to install public chargers, even if they're not free, e.g. at car parks, petrol stations, etc. Obviously the budget isn't there for the ESB, and we're not going to get very far if we rely solely on them.

Free motor tax would also help - even if it doesn't make that much difference financially, it's always something people are looking at when buying cars and would be a significant incentive.



I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but all passenger cars (post 2008) pay motor tax based on CO2 emissions - hybrids are not treated any differently, they just have lower emissions based on the standard tests, and they're not cheating on them like diesels are

They are occupying charging spots all day for the free parking and not even charging: 50% of the charging spots in Malahide are occupied Monday to Friday by two PHEVs: one a Volvo T8 [161 D 29500] with a e-range of 11 miles in the dart station. the other a 330e BMW [162 D 16564] with an e-range of 40km in the village.

That is complete bo$$ox, especially since the e cars app say the spaces are available.


As for not cheating/standard tests.... more oxo

bk

s.welstead wrote: »

All I'm saying is it is a hell of a lot easier to move the vast majority of motorists from ice to EV rather than public transport.

Actually 81% of shoppers in Dublin City Center get their by walking, cycling and public transport.

Along the quays, buses carry almost 10 times as many people per hour as cars do and in fact there are now almost as many cyclists on the quays per hour as there are cars!

Many people have already made the shift from cars to public transport as shown by the canal counts which have shown a steady decline in the number of cars entering the canals over the last 20 years, with walking, cycling and public transport trending up every year.

This trend will get even stronger with the plans (quays car ban and College Green car ban) to greatly reduce cars in the city center due to the Luas Cross City.

Given the medieval nature of Dublin City streets and the massively growing population, there simply isn't the space on our streets for cars of any type. Instead the space needs to be given over to more efficient means of transport.

EV's are great and all, but they simply aren't a solution to the horrible congestion of Dublin City Center.

newacc2015

I don't think the Government should be aggressively subsidising car ownership. If they want an uptake in EV, make ICE less attractive. Slap a massive tax on new ICE cars, more heavily tax fuels ie diesel and petrol, higher road tax, ban diesels from cities etc( I think owning a dirty diesel should be banned anyway, most people with modern Diesels dont need them).

Instead of making EV as attractive as a ICE with giveaways, just make ICE less attractive

pwurple

I think incentives for ev in city center is a great idea. Zero emissions, less noise. Would make cities more pleasant for everyone. Is there such thing as an ev bin lorry? So noisy!

The market loves a bit of certainty. Firm up how long the charging will be free, so that people won't feel like eejits buying a car and then the public charging being removed. Say 5 years free, then under review.

Company incentives for chargers. Where i work currently has heaps of chargers, and the ev's followed. We now have to call eachother to get a charge slot. (And the power is provided by their wind turbine... warm fussy feeling) Those chargers were provided by nissan though. A tax rebate on the install would be nice.

listermint

pwurple wrote: »

I think incentives for ev in city center is a great idea. Zero emissions, less noise. Would make cities more pleasant for everyone. Is there such thing as an ev bin lorry? So noisy!

The market loves a bit of certainty. Firm up how long the charging will be free, so that people won't feel like eejits buying a car and then the public charging being removed. Say 5 years free, then under review.

Company incentives for chargers. Where i work currently has heaps of chargers, and the ev's followed. We now have to call eachother to get a charge slot. (And the power is provided by their wind turbine... warm fussy feeling) Those chargers were provided by nissan though. A tax rebate on the install would be nice.

Even if Charging isn't free.

How many people on the street know it's 120 to tax and 4 euro to fill it....

..

...

unkel

€2 to fill it!

mickdw

newacc2015 wrote: »

I don't think the Government should be aggressively subsidising car ownership. If they want an uptake in EV, make ICE less attractive. Slap a massive tax on new ICE cars, more heavily tax fuels ie diesel and petrol, higher road tax, ban diesels from cities etc( I think owning a dirty diesel should be banned anyway, most people with modern Diesels dont need them).

Instead of making EV as attractive as a ICE with giveaways, just make ICE less attractive

That's idiotic. I don't like diesels but there are a large portion of drivers who absolutely need one. You think motoring isn't expensive enough?
Personally a phev will suit me and I plan I getting one but full electric is years away for most given range issues.

Balmed Out

mickdw wrote: »

That's idiotic. I don't like diesels but there are a large portion of drivers who absolutely need one. You think motoring isn't expensive enough?
Personally a phev will suit me and I plan I getting one but full electric is years away for most given range issues.

Close to getting one for a 60km each way commute. I think they are far more attractive for people with a commute who can make fuel savings. I have a fast charger enroute and work open to allow me get a charger there if needs be.

Obviously many do need a longer journey and diesel is a necessity but for the majority of diesel drivers they are completely not needed. I cant see the motor tax not going up for them.
What kind of range do you think would suit most? Even on a 24kw leaf with a 6.6kw charger you get about 120km range and can charge about 40km an hour at home. Cant see that not suiting most people.

KCross

mickdw wrote: »

That's idiotic. I don't like diesels but there are a large portion of drivers who absolutely need one. You think motoring isn't expensive enough?
Personally a phev will suit me and I plan I getting one but full electric is years away for most given range issues.

The higher taxes should be on diesel. Petrol PHEV should get an exemption for those where BEV doesnt suit.

The problem with that is the lack of choice but by the time the government here do anything hopefully there will be alot more available including more BEV where 200+ km is possible all year round.

josip

1. Find out all the TDs who have children/grandchildren in creches or school.
2. Measure the PM 2.5/10 and NOx outside those creche/school gates during drop off and collection.
3. Sit back and wait for the legislation to be passed.

DrPhilG

josip wrote: »

1. Find out all the TDs who have children/grandchildren in creches or school.
2. Measure the PM 2.5/10 and NOx outside those creche/school gates during drop off and collection.
3. Sit back and wait for the legislation to be passed.

I reckon you'd have a visit by some burly men in suits once stage 1 was complete, lol.

josip

DrPhilG wrote: »

I reckon you'd have a visit by some burly men in suits once stage 1 was complete, lol.

They don't wear leather jackets any more?

isnottheword

- An official change in the tax code to ensure that BIK doesn't come into play for the provision of EV chargepoints in the workplace - to encourage employers to offer free charging or charging at industrial rates (in the cases of large employers as they don't pay the residential prices we pay for electricity).
- For major employers above a certain scale, planning permission to be subject to the provision of EV chargepoints.
- A very sympathetic fee paying regime to be implemented.....ONLY to encourage more efficient use of the existing infrastructure. It can be increased (and you can be sure it will!) once there is significant EV take-up.
- Tax free until 20% market penetration. I appreciate that we're not going to stop .gov gathering up taxes. If they don't take it in motor tax, then they will implement in some other way. However, a stay can be placed on it - until the numbers of EV's on the road go up.
- The additional 'nightrate' ground rent to be abolished. This shouldn't be in place regardless of EV's in any event.
- Shore up the integrity of the existing infrastructure by ensuring that ecars map is updated in real time - so that users can have faith in the mapping/reporting....removing the uncertainty when it comes to trip planning.
- Better siting of EV chargepoints.
- All chargepoints to be marked out properly - painted and signed.
- Chargepoints to be positioned in places where fines can be imposed for those that abandon EV's (i.e No longer charging at all) OR for those that 'ICE' charging bays.
- All new builds to have wiring in place for charging points.
- All new shopping centres to have a planning stipulation that insists on provision of charging points.
- More public charging points. At this embryonic stage, .gov have to take a hit on the cost of that. When the sea-change happens, then economies of scale will kick in. I don't think any private entity will ever make a fortune from chargepoints. There will always be a level of state-subvention required.
- A far higher standard of Service Level Agreement (SLA) to be put in place with regard to the repair and servicing of public charging points. I think everyone appreciates that there's no standard at all right now. Whilst I appreciate that Ecars are taking the approach that they don't have the finances, .gov have to step in and finance.
- existing subsidies of €5k + €5k VRT discount are perfectly adequate. Leave as is.
- gently increase the tax on new diesel vehicles year on year. Someone suggested this is 'idiotic' - I don't agree. The reality is that there are far more people who could drive EV right now than is accepted.
- 'chargebump' functionality to be built into the ecars app - in order to promote greater cooperation between EV drivers in their use of the public infrastructure without their being any data protection/privacy issue (i.e. without them having to disclose their phone number).



Things not to do ....
- Allow EVs on bus lanes. Buses need to be given every opportunity to run more efficiently. Secondly, if you go down this road, you have to re-educate drivers as to what's possible. Before you know it, there will then have to be a re-education process when they ban EV's from bus lanes again (as ultimately there WILL be greater EV take-up - it's just a matter of when).
- Provide a 'grant' or 'free' install for home chargepoints. If ever there's a grant provided in Ireland for the installation of something, contractors simply tack it on to the price of the install. Chargepoints should be purchased in bulk by some state body and sold at a reasonable cost onwards to consumers - with them taking responsibility for install using their local RECI registered sparks. Chargepoint install is not a specialist operation - any registered competent electrician can install. Furthermore, there is no earthly way an install costs anywhere near the claimed €1000.


Lastly, technological development in terms of increased range at an affordable level is not a policy decision. Notwithstanding that, it's clear as night and day that it's in the works - given the uplifts we've already seen year-on-year in achievable range - and launches imminent over the next 24 months for greater range still.

KCross

isnottheword wrote: »

- The additional 'nightrate' ground rent to be abolished. This shouldn't be in place regardless of EV's in any event.

I agree with most of what you've written. A good wish list.

What is the above one though? I dont understand that one!

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

I agree with most of what you've written. A good wish list.

What is the above one though? I dont understand that one!

The higher standing charge applied for those who use night rate electric? That's what I guessed he/she meant, may be wrong.

isnottheword

DrPhilG wrote: »

The higher standing charge applied for those who use night rate electric? That's what I guessed he/she meant, may be wrong.

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. It's in the esb's interests (even before the advent of EV's) to encourage offsetting electricity use to off-peak times. Why disincentivise people from going that direction.

zilog_jones

Calahonda52 wrote: »

They are occupying charging spots all day for the free parking and not even charging: 50% of the charging spots in Malahide are occupied Monday to Friday by two PHEVs: one a Volvo T8 [161 D 29500] with a e-range of 11 miles in the dart station. the other a 330e BMW [162 D 16564] with an e-range of 40km in the village.

That is a failure of the owners of these cars, and a failure of the public charging infrastructure in that there are no repercussions for people who abuse the system. PHEVs are not the problem here. Someone could do a 10km commute with a BEV and do the same.

Also there is the expectation that charging points at train stations are for commuters, i.e. people who are going to be parked there for the day. It's not a great situation considering the lack of infrastructure.

goz83

boobycharlton wrote: »

Ridiculous that people are actually looking for bus lane use, free tolls and free city centre parking. Just because your car is less environmentally​ damaging doesn't give you divine right to clog up already overburdened urban areas. If people really gave a fcuk about the environment they'd use PT.

Everything possible should be done to discourage private car use in cities.

I agree with the sentiment of your post. EVs should not be allowed in bus lanes. But there are numerous issue with our PT network.

If PT was cheap, clean, reliable and properly connected, more would use it. Instead, it's often cheaper for me to drive a large petrol car 10 klms into the city and pay for 2 hours of parking if more than myself and the wife are going in. Then you have to put up with noisy school kids, scrotes smoking hash, or generally vandalising the bus (route dependant) or the constant threat of strikes and closures. The whole leap card thing is a complete disincentive for occasional bus users too.

The powers that be are already discouraging private cars in the city. It's not a pleasant experience to drive in DCC because of all the one way streets, no turn right/left, buses or taxis only, which add huge amounts of time onto a journey if you're trying to get from one side of the city to the other.

slave1 wrote: »

So, the dealers are part of the problem, I don't know if it's their mindset (no on-going maintenance at the same level so less long term revenue stream) or just lack of investment in training but they are brutal.
UK no better, the guys don't know the difference between a 3.3 or 6.6 Leaf...

They're not great in the UK, but they are miles ahead of the Irish dealers.

The dealers I contacted actually made an effort to contact me back.

Hyundai in Swords still haven't called me. At the time I took a short test drive, I was an enthusiastic person, very likely to buy.

GarIT

100% free electric cars. I read that is was trialled in India and planned for a wider rollout. The state pays for the car completely and a large tax is added onto the electricity that you use to charge the car to pay the value back. e.g you'd get a totally free car and would be paying €0.40-0.50 per unit of electricity until the car is paid off.

BMW have announced they will cease all petrol car production in 2030. Some countries have considered banning the sale of new petrol or diesel cars in 2025. We should follow their lead and ban the sale of new fossil fuel based private vehicles by 2030.

In the meantime, we should have increasing targets, dealers must pay something like €5k on every vehicle being sold if more than 95% of their sales to private customers have used fossil fuels. That 95% should be decreased by 5% per year.

BoatMad

Ive been involved in making representations to ministers , CER etc


my own view is that at present the uptake of EVs is driven by two factors

(A) early adopters , people that would buy an EV almost irrespective of the incentives

(B) Those that see it as a way of reducing driving costs, i.e. running costs.


The reality is that the cost of motoring in ireland is already one of the highest in Europe , so expecting a Government in the short to medium term ( i.e. 5-10 years ) to disincentive ICE cars is politically unsustainable . not going too happen.

My view is as follows

retain free public charging for 5 years or until 10,000 EVs are on the road
legally empower apartment and other owners that have access to car parking to request ( and pay for ) a charging point.
expand the FCP network at key usage points to multiple unit , mainly around Dublin

I dont think lower tolls or motor tax is going to make any real difference

Things that would make a difference
Time limited access to Bus lanes, it was very successful in Norway
remove BIK from company EVs where such EVs are below a value threshold
remove BIK from company provided electricity
offer a discounted night rate for EV use to encourage home charger takeup
make permanent the current free home charger install

retain the VRT reduction, and SEAI grant , indexed to entry level and mid range EVs

NO incentives to PHEVS with under 50 km range , these should be treated as ICE and not allowed to charge at FCPs. ( only SCPs)

The bus lane incentive would be very useful solely in Dublin , but could be a key incentive for a limited period. IN reality with the current takeup, the number of EVs in Buslanes would be small .
However with the current anti-car perspective of the DCC Manager, this option has been ruled out completely , which is a pity


introducing a pricing regime to " control" access to FCPs is exactly the wrong thing to do at the present why add a disincentive
. Controlling unfair user activity can be done by time limiting and several other non-price based measures . I would suggest that a 30 minute session would be the maximum allowed at an FCP in any hour , easily enforced by the smart card.

GarIT

Deedsie wrote: »

What disincentive is there with a leap card. They are extremely convenient.

Inconvenient to obtain, inconvenient to top-up.

It should just be replaced with contactless payment terminals at this point.

BoatMad

Deedsie wrote: »

What disincentive is there with a leap card. They are extremely convenient. Public and active transport have to be to the core of our transport strategy for urban areas.

EV's are great but we are far too reliant on private cars. Its a bit ridiculous. The public transport is a problem, but where people choose to live is a bigger problem.

93% of Irish people live in a house, just 7% live in apartments. The lowest numbers in Europe. Everyone chooses to live outside towns and cities. It is totally backwards.

Towns and cities across Ireland have been turned into car parks for private motorists. It is a moronic, inefficient, unsustainable way to manage our transport and society. We need to get more people living in town and city centres and near where they actually work, increase active transport and provide proper public transport.

This isnt just for Dublin, we have the same issues are all across the country.

The public transport argument is an entirely separate argument, and incentives for EVs are not bound up with a zero sum game argument for PT.

Spatially PT will always be an issue in Ireland, this is the least densely populated western country in Europe, PT will only be an answer for large metropolitan areas and yes in those areas it needs to be improved. That is entirely seperate to the EV issue

Outside of those areas there is no issue with the Motor car , as long as we convert ICE to EV. The car has and will remain a KEY requirement for those populations

There is nothing inherently wrong with private transport , attempts to paint it as some sort of devil activity and propose massive social re-engineering to remove it are just the outpourings of fanatics.

The key is to convert a sizeable promotion of private motoring to EVs, the issue of the mix of PT to private motoring is an entirely different argument

BoatMad

GarIT wrote: »

Inconvenient to obtain, inconvenient to top-up.

It should just be replaced with contactless payment terminals at this point.

absolutely , the Leap card has been surpassed by bank card technology and is redundant , the whole thing could be done with RF based payment systems , including bank cards and apple pay and so forth

( Leaving aside the nonsense that large parts of Bus Eireann cant accept the card ) , I can travel on Wexford Bus ( a private operator ) with the Leap card and I cant use it on Bus eireann for the same journey ( and they wonder why BE is failing !!!!!)(

GarIT

Deedsie wrote: »

You could have one posted to you with your picture on it. Online application takes 10 mins. Top up anywhere with an android phone.

The amount of the population the are would be put off by having to do it online is a disincentive. As is topping it up, something like 40-45% of people have an android phone.

GarIT

BoatMad wrote: »

absolutely , the Leap card has been surpassed by bank card technology and is redundant , the whole thing could be done with RF based payment systems , including bank cards and apple pay and so forth

( Leaving aside the nonsense that large parts of Bus Eireann cant accept the card ) , I can travel on Wexford Bus ( a private operator ) with the Leap card and I cant use it on Bus eireann for the same journey ( and they wonder why BE is failing !!!!!)(

The current system is especially off-putting for tourists. At this stage, we should be able to touch a debit or credit card from anywhere in the world with contactless or a phone with Android or Apple pay to pay.

BoatMad

GarIT wrote: »

The current system is especially off-putting for tourists. At this stage, we should be able to touch a debit or credit card from anywhere in the world with contactless or a phone with Android or Apple pay to pay.

+1. LEAP was a disaster from the beginning

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

The reality is that the cost of motoring in ireland is already one of the highest in Europe , so expecting a Government in the short to medium term ( i.e. 5-10 years ) to disincentive ICE cars is politically unsustainable . not going too happen.

Only disincentivise new diesels gradually over the next 5 years. Doing nothing isnt a reasonable option either if they have any interest in meeting our climate change targets. Fines from Europe will be difficult for the government to explain if they sit on their hands and do nothing.

BoatMad wrote: »

My view is as follows

retain free public charging for 5 years or until 10,000 EVs are on the road
legally empower apartment and other owners that have access to car parking to request ( and pay for ) a charging point.
expand the FCP network at key usage points to multiple unit , mainly around Dublin

I dont think lower tolls or motor tax is going to make any real difference

Things that would make a difference
Time limited access to Bus lanes, it was very successful in Norway
remove BIK from company EVs where such EVs are below a value threshold
remove BIK from company provided electricity
offer a discounted night rate for EV use to encourage home charger takeup
make permanent the current free home charger install

retain the VRT reduction, and SEAI grant , indexed to entry level and mid range EVs

NO incentives to PHEVS with under 50 km range , these should be treated as ICE and not allowed to charge at FCPs. ( only SCPs)

Most of that is just keeping what we have in place or reducing the impact of some of the downsides of EV ownership. It wont improve uptake enough.

Notwithstanding the improvements in BIK, which would be welcome.

We need EV to be seen to be a better choice (financially and otherwise) when someone goes to buy their new car. I cant see how that can be done without making new diesel more expensive. All the other stuff about bus lanes and cheaper tax is just tinkering.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

Only disincentivise new diesels gradually over the next 5 years. Doing nothing isnt a reasonable option either if they have any interest in meeting our climate change targets. Fines from Europe will be difficult for the government to explain if they sit on their hands and do nothing.





Most of that is just keeping what we have in place or reducing the impact of some of the downsides of EV ownership. It wont improve uptake enough.

Notwithstanding the improvements in BIK, which would be welcome.

We need EV to be seen to be a better choice (financially and otherwise) when someone goes to buy their new car. I cant see how that can be done without making new diesel more expensive. All the other stuff about bus lanes and cheaper tax is just tinkering.

Bus lane access had a big impact in urban areas in Norway . its now being scaled back as a result of the success of EVs. it was such a visible benefit that it generated considerable interest .

politically, significant disincentives to ICE in ireland are virtually impossible., certainly in the short -medium term ( < 10 years )

BIK would be a huge benefit too low mileage business buyers, who are paying 30% of the new value in tax every year at present. Targeted at BMW 3 series types etc . I do not see it as an incentive to get a 100K Teslas without BIK

a commitment to a fixed term free FCP regime, would give potential users clarity.

EV increase will come as range extends and more importantly more choice is available ( and as the users become more aware )

once we start to see significant EV takeup, then it would be politically acceptable to actively disincentivise ICE , especially diesels , starting with restrictions in urban areas first

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

Bus lane access had a big impact in urban areas in Norway . its now being scaled back as a result of the success of EVs. it was such a visible benefit that it generated considerable interest .

politically, significant disincentives to ICE in ireland are virtually impossible., certainly in the short -medium term ( < 10 years )

BIK would be a huge benefit too low mileage business buyers, who are paying 30% of the new value in tax every year at present. Targeted at BMW 3 series types etc . I do not see it as an incentive to get a 100K Teslas without BIK

a commitment to a fixed term free FCP regime, would give potential users clarity.

EV increase will come as range extends and more importantly more choice is available ( and as the users become more aware )

once we start to see significant EV takeup, then it would be politically acceptable to actively disincentivise ICE , especially diesels , starting with restrictions in urban areas first

I agree with most of what you have said there. They are all positive things but if you put yourself in the mind of a current ICE driver who knows nothing of EV and you want to buy a new car what do you buy.... EV wont be on your radar just because you have bus lane access and 5yrs of free charging and the issues around the charging infrastructure (public and apartments) will mean nothing to those people. You find those issues out AFTER you buy an EV.

You have to head them off at the pass, which is the point at which they are buying and parting with their cash.

I dont have much knowledge of Norway and their bus lanes but I do know that the government put ALOT of cash incentives into promoting EV. I doubt bus lanes were the deciding factor. Part of it for sure, but not the primary reason. The big bang is cash... what does it cost me to buy an ICE and how much for an EV.... thats the ONLY thing that Average Joe will look at, imo.

I'm not talking about huge tax increases on ICE... just a gradual increase over several years that plants the seed with new buyers that this ICE I'm buying today is "on the way out" and is going to cost more and more to run.