How would YOU get more EVs on the road

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

I agree with most of what you have said there. They are all positive things but if you put yourself in the mind of a current ICE driver who knows nothing of EV and you want to buy a new car what do you buy.... EV wont be on your radar just because you have bus lane access and 5yrs of free charging and the issues around the charging infrastructure (public and apartments) will mean nothing to those people. You find those issues out AFTER you buy an EV.

You have to head them off at the pass, which is the point at which they are buying and parting with their cash.

I dont have much knowledge of Norway and their bus lanes but I do know that the government put ALOT of cash incentives into promoting EV. I doubt bus lanes were the deciding factor. Part of it for sure, but not the primary reason. The big bang is cash... what does it cost me to buy an ICE and how much for an EV.... thats the ONLY thing that Average Joe will look at, imo.

I'm not talking about huge tax increases on ICE... just a gradual increase over several years that plants the seed with new buyers that this ICE I'm buying today is "on the way out" and is going to cost more and more to run.

I cannot agree , that loading even more cost on irish motorists is the way to go ., if anything you could have a serous " backlash" and in a world of Trumo and Brexit, the " forgotten " tend to get angry

Its easy to see and communicate the advantages of EVs to consumers, Gov sponsored TV, radio and paper advertisements etc .

Bus lane access is more valuable , not as a " real " incentive , but as a very public visible one

a defined free FCP plan is likewise a visible an communicable benefit m whereas up to now , its always been " sure charging can come in anyway " etc etc


BIK is a very clear communicable benefit to company car drivers, you think they miss that !!!

purchase grants are largely invisible, because typically prices are quoted net of these grants and the punter just sees a "car " price

Low band motor tax is not any further an incentive, zero rating it has negligible effects on running costs


You need bold visible incentives , but this is not the time to disincentive ICE , you can only do that when there is suitable choices

The area where disincentives to ICE especially diesel can begin, first , is in urban centres, thats where Id start. EVs are already a credible alternative, but any "general " disincentive is not politically possible

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I cannot agree , that loading even more cost on irish motorists is the way to go ., if anything you could have a serous " backlash" and in a world of Trumo and Brexit, the " forgotten " tend to get angry

Only new sales and gradually. Someone buying a new car cant be claiming to be the forgotten!

BoatMad wrote: »

Its easy to see and communicate the advantages of EVs to consumers, Gov sponsored TV, radio and paper advertisements etc .

Yea, I agree. I posted this as one of my top 2 in post 20 of this thread. EV's are not being pushed. Its only growing by word of mouth.

BoatMad wrote: »

Bus lane access is more valuable , not as a " real " incentive , but as a very public visible one

Im not sold one way or the other on bus lane use and it would primarily be a Dublin based thing which Im not qualified to speak for.

Are the Norway cities like Dublin? Maybe they have better infrastructure and PT that allowed it to work. I dont know, I'll leave the Dublin based people on the forum to comment.

BoatMad wrote: »

BIK is a very clear communicable benefit to company car drivers, you think they miss that !!!

I agree. BIK just requires Revenue to make a statement.
They should clarify it.

BoatMad wrote: »

You need bold visible incentives , but this is not the time to disincentive ICE , you can only do that when there is suitable choices

So, not even a small disincentive? One that will increase each year. Just enough to send the message that diesel is on the way out?

Plus do all the marketing and other things you have said to make EV more palatable.

BoatMad wrote: »

The area where disincentives to ICE especially diesel can begin, first , is in urban centres, thats where Id start. EVs are already a credible alternative, but any "general " disincentive is not politically possible

You are probably right that politically (particularly with this government) its difficult.

DrPhilG

The thing that got me into an EV was the calculations that I did regarding the running costs.

Not any incentives, not even the low road tax.

Wrote down my diesel spending, compared it to the costs of "fuelling" the Leaf and took a sharp breath at the figures.

Annual savings:
Insurance dropped by 12% saving me €70
Tax dropped by 35% saving me €70
Fuel costs dropped by 90% saving me €2100

The previous year my wife has suggested going electric and I dismissed it based on range. She does remind me of that on occasion...

Shefwedfan

KCross wrote: »

I agree. BIK just requires Revenue to make a statement.
They should clarify it.

Not sure what you mean by this?

DrPhilG

So to summarise, the simplest way I can see to increase EV usage is to promote that potentially huge (although varies depending on the individual) saving, whilst at the same time minimising the downsides by keeping FCPs free for another few years and funding upkeep and expansion of the network.

newacc2015

mickdw wrote: »

That's idiotic. I don't like diesels but there are a large portion of drivers who absolutely need one. You think motoring isn't expensive enough?
Personally a phev will suit me and I plan I getting one but full electric is years away for most given range issues.

There is some drivers who need them. But there is a lot of Diesels being brought by people, who feel like they have to buy one everyone is buying them. Plus the tax and fuel is cheaper. There a lot of people buying Diesels to potter to the shops, that is not what a modern diesel is for.

If driving was expensive enough already, I dont think most households in the middle of towns and cities would have 2 cars in their driveways when there are plenty of alternatives eg cycling, public transport etc. I don't know of any other country in Europe, where most households own two cars.

There is massive cost to society of everyone owning a car. Losses to the economy due to congestion, building and maintaining new roads, diesel is a dirty fuel and causes breathing issues etc. We should be passing these costs onto drivers.

Most commuters are not driving 200km round trips. An EV would be suitable for most peoples car

josip

DrPhilG wrote: »

So to summarise, the simplest way I can see to increase EV usage is to promote that potentially huge (although varies depending on the individual) saving, whilst at the same time minimising the downsides by keeping FCPs free for another few years and funding upkeep and expansion of the network.

But they can't do that, because that saving will decrease as the uptake increases and the government redistributes motoring-related taxes in order to maintain revenue.
It would be political suicide to advertise this and subsequently increase the costs as the tax-take diminishes.

bk

GarIT wrote: »

Inconvenient to obtain, inconvenient to top-up.

It should just be replaced with contactless payment terminals at this point.

You can set up auto-topup, basically it automatically topups by €30 when your balance drops below €10 on your card. It is a one time setup and you never have to actively top up your card again. It is fantastic.

The ability to use contactless debit cards and smart phone payments is coming to the Leap system in the next year, along with the plan to completely remove cash payments and a flat fare for all dublin bus journeys shortly after that.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

I agree. BIK just requires Revenue to make a statement.
They should clarify it.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by this?

Officially getting free electricity to charge your car at work is a BIK. Revenue dont collect the money but some companies (mine included) use it as an excuse to not put in work chargers. A simple statement from revenue saying there is no BIK on the electricity used on a work charger for private use would cost them nothing and remove another roadblock.

BoatMad also suggested removing BIK for the car itself. Not a bad idea either but that could be expensive. It would need to be time or number of EV's limited.

slave1

Getting back to infrastructure, it can be dodgy at times, in our limited EV experience a few chargers have been out of action,the one in Ballinasloe must be out a month now so no DC charger to cover Athlone-Galway at present

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

The bus lane incentive would be very useful solely in Dublin , but could be a key incentive for a limited period. IN reality with the current takeup, the number of EVs in Buslanes would be small .
However with the current anti-car perspective of the DCC Manager, this option has been ruled out completely , which is a pity

I'm so glad to hear that he has more sense then some people on this forum!

Too many people already sneak into bus lanes, can you imagine the chaos if EV's were left in. People wouldn't know they are EV's, speically newer ones like the Ioniq and quickly follow them in.

We need to be increasing the number of bus lanes and making them more effective by:

- Building dedicated high quality cycle lanes so cyclists don't have to use the Bus lane
- Banning Taxis from bus lanes, at least the core city center ones
- Automatic enforcement cameras on Dublin Bus buses, to automatically capture and ticket people using bus lanes.

The absolutely last thing public transport needs is more cars in the already congested bus lanes.

A reminder that bus lanes carry almost 10 times as many people per hour as the car lane beside it and that those passengers produce less CO2 per person then even an EV driver.

KCross

josip wrote: »

But they can't do that, because that saving will decrease as the uptake increases and the government redistributes motoring-related taxes in order to maintain revenue.
It would be political suicide to advertise this and subsequently increase the costs as the tax-take diminishes.

For most people, the main fuel saving cost is electricity at home on night rate.

The government cant directly change that cost. Its driven by market forces (gas, oil prices) and has to go through the CER which is outside direct government control.

As EVs become more popular there will be a reduction in taxes from petrol/diesel but a small portion of that will be offset by an increase in electricity usage where there is VAT and an increased yearly dividend from the ESB. There is also the benefit of the money staying in the country rather than going to the oil producing nations so the extra money will be spent locally. I'm saving about €1800/yr on fuel but I still spend it all so the economy is quids in.

The government will still get VAT, VRT and motor tax. The main revenue they will have to replace is the partial loss of tax on petrol/diesel. And yes, that will have to be replaced from somewhere.

bk

Getting back to the original topic.

I'd like to see tax on Diesel being increased so that the retail price of Diesel matches the retail price of petrol.

Driving along last week, I noticed that you see the price of Diesel being 10c per litre cheaper then the price of petrol on those big signs outside of every petrol station. That most have a psychological effect on people to help re-inforce the idea that Diesel is cheap.

I know that in general the government is very slow to increase taxes in motorists for political reasons, but if they could even get petrol and diesel level, I think it might help dispel the idea of cheap diesel and people might be more inclined to at least look more favourably at petrol hybrids, which would at least be better in terms of NOX and PM emmisions.

pwurple

I don't think there is anywhere in Ireland with car-pooling lanes, are there? That's what i've seen in california, EV's are allowed use the car-pooling lanes even when single occupancy. I was surprised to see how high the take-up was there actually. Their temperatures are quite high, Ireland is actually a perfect environment for EV's given our temperate climate. 

Based on the adoption curve, places like Norway and California are at Early Majority stage. Norway is at 50% new car purchases EV at the moment. 
I think in Ireland we are just going from Innovators into early adopters at this stage. 
People really underestimate what prevents that surge of early adoption rising. It's nearly always uncertainty.  A car is a substantial purchase, people will not part with their money if they think it's a possible dead duck. Some uncertainty can be addressed by govt policy defining what it's going to cost to own and operate one, not for 6 months, or some undefined time, but 5 years, 10 years, here it is in black and white. This is your tax, here are the costs for charging. This is why the asinine uncertainty created at the end of 2015 about the infrastructure was a set back. 

goz83

Deedsie wrote: »

What disincentive is there with a leap card. They are extremely convenient. Public and active transport have to be to the core of our transport strategy for urban areas.

EV's are great but we are far too reliant on private cars. Its a bit ridiculous. The public transport is a problem, but where people choose to live is a bigger problem.

93% of Irish people live in a house, just 7% live in apartments. The lowest numbers in Europe. Everyone chooses to live outside towns and cities. It is totally backwards.

Towns and cities across Ireland have been turned into car parks for private motorists. It is a moronic, inefficient, unsustainable way to manage our transport and society. We need to get more people living in town and city centres and near where they actually work, increase active transport and provide proper public transport.

This isnt just for Dublin, we have the same issues are all across the country.

There is no need for them. Technology has surpassed them. The rest of the post was pointless.

Deedsie wrote: »

There are massive issues with the private motor car in urban areas. Noise pollution, traffic congestion, stress.

Urban centres need to limit the number of cars that enter the city or town core. Only way you will get people to live there again.

Agreed. More EVs will be less noise. Inhaling less noxious fumes will be less stress. Congestion remains an issue, but our cr@ppy PT network encourage private car use.

bk wrote: »

Too many people already sneak into bus lanes, can you imagine the chaos if EV's were left in. People wouldn't know they are EV's, speically newer ones like the Ioniq and quickly follow them in.

I made the same point earlier. Sheeple.

bk wrote: »

We need to be increasing the number of bus lanes and making them more effective by:

- Building dedicated high quality cycle lanes so cyclists don't have to use the Bus lane
- Banning Taxis from bus lanes, at least the core city center ones
- Automatic enforcement cameras on Dublin Bus buses, to automatically capture and ticket people using bus lanes.

The absolutely last thing public transport needs is more cars in the already congested bus lanes.

A reminder that bus lanes carry almost 10 times as many people per hour as the car lane beside it and that those passengers produce less CO2 per person then even an EV driver.

I don't agree with banning Taxis outright from using bus lanes. I would only go as far as to ban them if they don't have a fare, but even then, they may be on the way to pick up a fare. It would be pointless taking a taxi in Dublin if they couldn't use the bus lanes.

isnottheword

pwurple wrote: »

I don't think there is anywhere in Ireland with car-pooling lanes, are there? That's what i've seen in california, EV's are allowed use the car-pooling lanes even when single occupancy. I was surprised to see how high the take-up was there actually.

Remarked on that myself when I was out there last year. Then again, it's a workable solution that they implement during rush hour (either car pool or EV) - morning and afternoon/evening - but then they have motorway lanes 3-5 wide. Wouldn't work for us in most instances.

zilog_jones

There's not enough traffic on most motorways here to justify HOV lanes, and with roads like the M50 there's just not enough space to add more lanes.

discostu1

Some very interesting ideas and suggestions. My own thoughts are that there are no "EV Champions" in the press Media. We live in a very image fixated world and people can be influenced but there is no one out there saying I drive an EV. Whether there is any "Celebtrity" who drives one or not I dont know.
I agree that a positive ad campaign from Government/Motor industry might help and in fairness Nissan have thrown some money at it.
I am very new to this game but I feel a bit like 2006/2007 when I was looking at buying a house ..it was obvious to me that the market was crazy and couldnt last but all the "experts" told me that I was wrong. I feel the same about the EVs , financially for most people like me this is literally a no brainer.
P.S I didnt buy a house til the end of 2009 and it was a lot cheaper

SafeSurfer

From an environmental point of view I would like to see incentives for converting existing cars to EVs. Subsidising conversions would mean s lot more of the government spend being retained in Ireland than going to foreign auto manufacturers.

Also from a business point of view VAT on petrol should be reclaimable when used in a hybrid. Currently only VAT on diesel can be reclaimed.

isnottheword

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From an environmental point of view I would like to see incentives for converting existing cars to EVs. Subsidising conversions would mean s lot more of the government spend being retained in Ireland than going to foreign auto manufacturers.

Doesn't sound like a feasible option to be honest. Batteries are all being recycled - I'm sure the rest of the car will be also (in the same way as ICE cars are).

SafeSurfer

isnottheword wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From an environmental point of view I would like to see incentives for converting existing cars to EVs. Subsidising conversions would mean s lot more of the government spend being retained in Ireland than going to foreign auto manufacturers.

Doesn't sound like a feasible option to be honest. Batteries are all being recycled - I'm sure the rest of the car will be also (in the same way as ICE cars are).

Why the need to make a new electric car at huge expense if a perfectly good diesel or petrol car can be converted for less? If I could convert my diesel land rover to electric and be subsidised to do so and pay about 90% less motor tax I would do it. I won't be rushing to buy any of the limited number of evs available in Ireland for quite hefty price tags.

Alu

Here's an interesting paper which examines the effect of Norwegian EV incentives..

http://www.svt.ntnu.no/iso/Anders.Skonhoft/Environmental%20Science%20and%20Policy%20814.pdf

Theirs is a carrot rather than a stick (taxes targeting the polluters) approach based on investment in charging infrastructure, access to bus lanes, lower tax etc. for EVs. The effect, as we know, was massive switch to EV - currently 50% of sales.

Like Ireland, most of the Norwegian population live in and around the capital so mostly short journeys suited to current gen. EVs. However, statistics indicate that the majority of EV purchased in Norway were as second cars - reducing usage of and dependancy on public transport.

Of course the paper only examines sales and policy to date - upcoming models (with better range and more seats/ luggage capacity) should offer more options for single car households and families.

stesaurus

SafeSurfer wrote: »

From an environmental point of view I would like to see incentives for converting existing cars to EVs. Subsidising conversions would mean s lot more of the government spend being retained in Ireland than going to foreign auto manufacturers.

Also from a business point of view VAT on petrol should be reclaimable when used in a hybrid. Currently only VAT on diesel can be reclaimed.

That's actually an excellent suggestion. I'd love to convert a old classic to EV. There's a guy over on SpeakEv converting a 911 which is a great idea. Put some classics back on the road with modern technology.

unkel

Big business in the states these days.

I remember there was a 928 done in California at least a decade ago. And a very recent episode of Wheeler Dealers they did up a Maserati Biturbo that had been converted to EV in the early 90s :eek:

Calahonda52

isnottheword wrote: »

Doesn't sound like a feasible option to be honest. Batteries are all being recycled - I'm sure the rest of the car will be also (in the same way as ICE cars are).

What follows I offer as some, perhaps quite simplistic observations, which are food for though, as opposed to starting an argument:D

This is in the same discussion arena as whether one should keep an existing ICE car or buy a new " less emissions" one.

Its an exercise I have done for years in National Schools as part of my Steps to Engineering work.

The issue, in part, revolves around the embedded carbon in the new car.
The argument can also look at full lifetime Carbon footprint stuff but that is a bit complicated for me, not to mind the 11 year olds!

Same idea here: what is the embedded carbon in a ICE to EV conversion as opposed to scrapping the ICE and buying new, not second hand but new.
Also the LCCA for a n EV using elec from fossil fuels versus non carbon fuels, such as wind, but has embedded carbon also, as do PV farms.
Shipping wood pellets or wood chips from South America for Moneypoint does not tick any eco friendly transport boxes!


Also interesting from a policy issue is the no VRT on EV's at the moment.
Both Gov and SIMI both want all new ICE cars as they yield the most tax revenue at the point of purchase.
Clearly the hybrids and PHEVs cause a loss on road tax so thats another number crunching exercise.

Keep well.

josip

I doubt if converting the national fleet of ICEs to EVs retrospectively would be more economic than scrapping/recycling old ICEs and building a new EV from scratch in a purpose built factory with highly automated assembly lines.

How can it be a viable business proposition for Ireland with a population of 4 million to put in place the infrastructure to repurpose a wide range of models from all the global manufacturers to EV?

It might be interesting for a mechanic with spare time on the Discovery Channel to do it as a pet project, but for anyone else, it would be a waste of money.

stesaurus

I don't think anyone was suggesting converting the entire current fleet of ice to EVs. There could be some incentives though for people willing to convert an old polluter and giving it a new lease of life. It wouldn't be a money saver for someone either, more a passion project.

unkel

It's for one off classic cars that are in high demand and will command a high price, so justifying the huge conversion costs. Iirc the Maserati would have been worth about $5k-$10k tops in decent condition and it sold for $25k or so converted.

KCross

Alu wrote: »

Here's an interesting paper which examines the effect of Norwegian EV incentives..

http://www.svt.ntnu.no/iso/Anders.Skonhoft/Environmental%20Science%20and%20Policy%20814.pdf

Theirs is a carrot rather than a stick (taxes targeting the polluters) approach based on investment in charging infrastructure, access to bus lanes, lower tax etc. for EVs. The effect, as we know, was massive switch to EV - currently 50% of sales.

Like Ireland, most of the Norwegian population live in and around the capital so mostly short journeys suited to current gen. EVs. However, statistics indicate that the majority of EV purchased in Norway were as second cars - reducing usage of and dependancy on public transport.

Of course the paper only examines sales and policy to date - upcoming models (with better range and more seats/ luggage capacity) should offer more options for single car households and families.

Interesting paper. Like most government incentive schemes there are always downsides and people who abuse it.... e.g. give a grant and the manufacturers/suppliers increase the price.

One thing that stood out for me in that report is that they based one of their main conclusions for emissions on the world average electricity mix. The world average has a mix of 40% coal fired power stations. It seems odd to me they didnt give the local Norway figures since Norway is what the entire paper is about. Norway's electricity is almost entirely hydroelectric so their conclusions are false for Norway.

I dont think those conclusions would apply to Ireland either because AFAIK we dont have anything near 40% coal in our electricity mix.

I wonder is there a political agenda in the paper? I think there is.



The figures around noise were interesting. Summary... at 50kmh the tyres make as much noise as the engine. At 90kmh the tyre noise exceeds the engine. They still said that in slow city driving there is a benefit.


Their final remarks.... "Our main conclusion is that the Norwegian EV subsidy policy should be ended as soon as possible, and that this policy certainly should not be implemented by other countries."

They recommend increasing taxes on personal transport and invest in public transport.

unkel

They're right. €10k subsidy on a new EV is ridiculous. Terrible value for money for the government too. The likes of me paying €3k per year in motor tax and excise plus VAT on my fuel, now they give me €10k to swap my ICE for an EV and from now on I only pay €150 per year in motor tax plus excise and VAT on my fuel?

They are going to lose out big time, with nothing much to show for it except another EV on the road and a harmless petrol car off the road. Much better to severely penalise diesel (stick rather than carrot). It is diesels off the road we need, not so much EVs on the road

I'm saying thanks anyway for the €10k