Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

Laura4193

Hi,

I'll try to keep this as short as possible. I get a monthly ticket on my leap card from work for the bus and rail. I had only moved to Maynooth when I started the job and told them I'd more than likely be getting the train from Maynooth. A couple of months later and I started getting on at Kilcock as it was handier for parking.

I never thought anything was wrong, certainly didn't think I was dong anything wrong. Kilcock is a very small station, no Iirsh Rail staff, no smart card machine, just a ticket vending machine with the smart card top up facility on it.

Last week an inspector scanned my card on the train and told me it wasn't valid for Kilcock as I was out of the "Short Hop Zone". He then slapped me with €100 fine plus the full fare of €8.10.

I then offered him my personal leap card which had sufficient credit but he refused. My card was confiscated but he told me to go in and ask for the manager and explain that Kilcock would be included in the zone in June and that it wasn't "user-friendly".

I subsequently did that two days later and turns out the manager told me that in fact the inspector had told him I was told to come in to pay ALL my fares that I "avoided" which would be over €1,000.

Hand on heart I did not intentionally avoid fares, I don't have to pay anyway my job does for me! I was genuinely clueless to this "zone" thing.

Now on looking into the Rail Safety Act I can see you have to have intent to avoid paying the fare, me offering my personal leap card shows I didn't but whats the odds of that holding up?

Bottom line is I can't afford it. This is why my job pays for me, I earn less than €20,000 a year.

Anyone know where I stand on this or what I can do?

GM228

Make an appeal, if that isn't succesfull either just pay or take your chances in court.

Generally offering to pay something afterwards does not show you didn't have intent as the intent would have applied at the moment you joined the train, not when you are allegedly caught.

Problem with intent is there is little case law to define it or give guidance on how it is tested. But here's the thing, you told your employer you would be travelling from Maynooth, you then decided to travel from Kilcock which is further away without checking your ticket was valid......

Other than that we can't give legal advise here, if you intend to challenge it I suggest you consult a solicitor. Best of luck.

Marcusm

It's hard to see what genuine basis you would have for an appeal.

Losty Dublin

Did you check to see if your pass covered you to travel from Kilcock or not, OP?

L1011

You've made things much worse by telling the inspector you were doing it repeatedly. They'll have records of the tag offs in the mornings and tag ons in the evening without matching ones and calculate all of those as skipped fares. Having a Leap card outside the Leap zone doesn't seem like it'd wash as intent to pay.

Thought this was in a transport forum so may have overstepped the legal advice rule here, at least before editing anyway

sdanseo

The much more reasonable question is, if you were tagging on and off appropriately, why did the system not deduct money from the card instead of using the monthly short hop pass? And if there was no credit, surely you would then see this on the barrier displays?

Sounds like Irish Rail made it very difficult for you in your circumstances to realise you were doing wrong. Speaking hypothetically, wouldn't a judge have to be satisfied beyone reasonable doubt that you intended to steal?

Would offering to pay back the difference in fares over a period of time (without the fines) do any good I wonder?

L1011

sdanseo wrote: »

The much more reasonable question is, if you were tagging on and off appropriately, why did the system not deduct money from the card instead of using the monthly short hop pass? And if there was no credit, surely you would then see this on the barrier displays?

They weren't, as there are no Leap readers in Kilcock.

If you tag off without a tag on with an SHZ ticket it assumes you entered via an unmanned SHZ station and lets you through - I do it daily as I use the second entrance/exit from Connolly that brings you in behind the barriers surreally.

Laura4193

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did you check to see if your pass covered you to travel from Kilcock or not, OP?

No Losty Dublin, that's the colossal mistake I made. I just genuinely believed my ticket covered me. I thought it was just unlimited bus and rail.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

You've made things much worse by telling the inspector you were doing it repeatedly. They'll have records of the tag offs in the mornings and tag ons in the evening without matching ones and calculate all of those as skipped fares. Having a Leap card outside the Leap zone doesn't seem like it'd wash as intent to pay.

Thought this was in a transport forum so may have overstepped the legal advice rule here, at least before editing anyway

I know, I just believed at the time they would see how honest I was being and know I was being genuine. Unfortunately compassion isn't a trait they own.

Laura4193

sdanseo wrote: »

Would offering to pay back the difference in fares over a period of time (without the fines) do any good I wonder?

Unfortunately, the figure of over €1,000 is the full fares price of all the times I've been doing this unknowingly in the last few months. The fine of €100 would be slapped on top of that.

Only thing with this is Irish Rail would have to "assume" any tag off without a tag on was me boarding at Kilcock. But surely they can't base on assumptions?

LXFlyer

I am struggling to understand why you would not even check what the fares were from Kilcock or whether your ticket was valid before travelling from there.

Kilcock has never been within the Dublin Suburban fares zone, and will only move into it in June following an NTA fare review.

You've not paid the correct fare for months from what you're saying here - I'm sorry but you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What do you expect?

Everyone else pays the correct fare - you didn't and it is your responsibility to have the correct ticket for your journey.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Only thing with this is Irish Rail would have to "assume" any tag off without a tag on was me boarding at Kilcock. But surely they can't base on assumptions?

They've an admission and very strong evidence from the tag data.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

I am struggling to understand why you would not even check what the fares were from Kilcock or whether your ticket was valid before travelling from there.

Kilcock has never been within the Dublin Suburban fares zone, and will only move into it in June following an NTA fare review.

You've not paid the correct fare for months from what you're saying here - I'm sorry but you have to take responsibility for your own actions. What do you expect?

Everyone else pays the correct fare - you didn't and it is your responsibility to have the correct ticket for your journey.

I assumed my card covered all stations like an unlimited travel ticket, I wasn't aware what exact ticket was on it as I had mentioned in my original post my employer got it for me, I had nothing to do with purchasing the ticket.

You're making it sound like I had something to gain from staying on an extra stop? It made zero financial difference to me, once again my employer pays for my travel.

It was a genuine mistake, one that had I of known at the time I would have stayed getting on and off at Maynooth.

I'm not familiar with that train line area and it's "zones" regardless as I've only moved out there in the last year.

Maybe you couldn't read my original post fully from your ivory tower.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

I assumed my card covered all stations like an unlimited travel ticket, I wasn't aware what exact ticket was on it as I had mentioned in my original post my employer got it for me, I had nothing to do with purchasing the ticket.

You're making it sound like I had something to gain from staying on an extra stop? It made zero financial difference to me, once again my employer pays for my travel.

It was a genuine mistake, one that had I of known at the time I would have stayed getting on and off at Maynooth.

I'm not familiar with that train line area and it's "zones" regardless as I've only moved out there in the last year.

Maybe you couldn't read my original post fully from your ivory tower.

With respect - if I am using a public transport service I would make sure what the fares were or whether my ticket was valid or not beforehand - that's pretty normal behaviour.

I've read all your posts and frankly it does beggar belief that you didn't bother checking the fares. If we follow your logic, are you saying that you believed you could walk into any railway station in the country and use the ticket to travel to any other railway station across the entire country??

Come on be realistic - I'm sorry but you have to take some responsibility in life for your actions. You didn't bother to check the fares, and have paid the wrong fare for months by your own admission. You may not have intended to, but the fact remains that you have not paid the valid fare for months.

It has nothing to do with ivory towers - it is all to do with taking responsibility for your own actions in life - it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket, and you didn't bother to check whether you did or not.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect - if I am using a public transport service I would make sure what the fares were or whether my ticket was valid or not beforehand - that's pretty normal behaviour.

I've read all your posts and frankly it does beggar belief that you didn't bother checking the fares. If we follow your logic, are you saying that you believed you could walk into any railway station in the country and use the ticket to travel to any other railway station across the entire country??

Come on be realistic - I'm sorry but you have to take some responsibility in life for your actions. You didn't bother to check the fares, and have paid the wrong fare for months by your own admission. You may not have intended to, but the fact remains that you have not paid the valid fare for months.

It has nothing to do with ivory towers - it is all to do with taking responsibility for your own actions in life - it is your responsibility to have a valid ticket, and you didn't bother to check whether you did or not.

I'll be the first to admit I didn't bother checking, that was my mistake. I assumed I was covered. I would have checked if it had of been money from my own pocket but with work willing to pay any figure I had thought the ticket would have covered a vast area, certainly one more stop!

If there had of been a smart card reader at the station beeping back at me telling me my ticket was invalid I would never of gotten the train to or from that stop.

I was not PURPOSELY evading a fare. And according to the act you have to have the intent. I did not.

I posted on here to prove my naivety and the fact that I was not intentionally trying to cut corners and for advice on what to do next. I didn't post to get a life lecture on what not to do, it's done I can't change it.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

I'll be the first to admit I didn't bother checking, that was my mistake. I assumed I was covered. I would have checked if it had of been money from my own pocket but with work willing to pay any figure I had thought the ticket would have covered a vast area, certainly one more stop!

If there had of been a smart card reader at the station beeping back at me telling me my ticket was invalid I would never of gotten the train to or from that stop.

I was not PURPOSELY evading a fare. And according to the act you have to have the intent. I did not.

I posted on here to prove my naivety and the fact that I was not intentionally trying to cut corners and for advice on what to do next. I didn't post to get a life lecture on what not to do, it's done I can't change it.

With respect I am not lecturing you on what not to do - I'm making the point that you are responsible for your own actions. You made a mistake, and now you have to take the consequences for it. That clearly isn't what you want to hear, but I think that you're going to have to deal with it.

Where would you stop with this "one more stop" argument? That's ridiculous to be honest.

I'm afraid I don't believe that you have a leg to stand on - You've already admitted to Irish Rail to travelling without having the correct ticket for months.

Absolutely anyone could claim that they didn't intend to pay the incorrect fare - but I don't see how you think that is a valid excuse for not having the right ticket.

The fact of the matter is that (intentionally or not) you didn't check the fares, and you travelled on an invalid ticket - I don't see any wriggle room around that. You made all sorts of incorrect assumptions - like it or not that is your fault.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

cml387

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very lenient.
There was the senior baker who did something quite similar to the OP (except it was with deliberate knowledge aforethought ) who narrowly avoided a jail sentence.

Read all about it.

Victor

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not just €100, it's that plus the fares foregone in each instance.

Laura4193

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

TheChizler

In fairness any time I've made the journey up to Dublin and used IR/TFI services in general it seems they operate on the expectation that you understand the system. There's no one resource explaining the fares for each zone or what's covered by the ticket. While you should always do your research, they don't make it easy, unless they've updated the website recently.

If you're only after walking into a station and can only go by the information present without internet access I don't know how you'd go about being sure you're doing the right thing.

Little CuChulainn

Would you not only be liable for the fare between Kilcock and Maynooth as the leap card covered you from Maynooth?

LXFlyer

TheChizler wrote: »

In fairness any time I've made the journey up to Dublin and used IR/TFI services in general it seems they operate on the expectation that you understand the system. There's no one resource explaining the fares for each zone or what's covered by the ticket. While you should always do your research, they don't make it easy, unless they've updated the website recently.

If you're only after walking into a station and can only go by the information present without internet access I don't know how you'd go about being sure you're doing the right thing.

I think that this page makes it quite easy to find it what the fares are:
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/fares-info

It isn't exactly hidden.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

Get something in writing from them if you are concerned.

Little CuChulainn

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

Is the online system not just realted to the incident you got the fixed charge penalty for? The letter is probably just an offer of a settlement before legal proceedings are initiated. It might be worth consulting a solicitor about it. For one thing, there are time limits in which proceedings must be taken. And my previous point about being charged for an entire fare when your leap card covers a large portion of it might be a mitigating factor.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that this page makes it quite easy to find it what the fares are:
http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/fares-info

It isn't exactly hidden.

It isn't exactly advertised either considering every other method of public transport has their act together.

Dublin Bus has their fare zones plastered all over every single busstop explaining zones ans fares.

The Luas has the exact same thing, each stop shows zones and fares.

Bus Eireann, zones and fares right at the stops.

Irish Rail are the only ones who make you go searching for the info.

It was my first time having someone else, i.e. work, buy travel for me and certainly my first time using TaxSaver.
I assumed they did their own type of tickets, I wasn't aware it was the Short Hop Zone, again not very advertised unless you go searching.

So no, Irish Rail in fact do not make it easy for you.
Hindsight is a great thing

Laura4193

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Is the online system not just realted to the incident you got the fixed charge penalty for? The letter is probably just an offer of a settlement before legal proceedings are initiated. It might be worth consulting a solicitor about it. For one thing, there are time limits in which proceedings must be taken. And my previous point about being charged for an entire fare when your leap card covers a large portion of it might be a mitigating factor.

You would think but the letter tells me I can phone up and quote the reference which I did two days after and they only charged me €108??

Yes I'm getting legal advice Thursday evening but I'm hoping it doesn't go as far as court.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

It isn't exactly advertised either considering every other method of public transport has their act together.

Dublin Bus has their fare zones plastered all over every single busstop explaining zones ans fares.

The Luas has the exact same thing, each stop shows zones and fares.

Bus Eireann, zones and fares right at the stops.

Irish Rail are the only ones who make you go searching for the info.

It was my first time having someone else, i.e. work, buy travel for me and certainly my first time using TaxSaver.
I assumed they did their own type of tickets, I wasn't aware it was the Short Hop Zone, again not very advertised unless you go searching.

So no, Irish Rail in fact do not make it easy for you.
Hindsight is a great thing

With respect they have a large tab at the top of their home page on their website saying "Fares and Tickets" - which is pretty intuitive.

How much easier do you want it?

Bus Eireann certainly do not have their entire fares matrix on stops or buses nor do Dublin Bus - you still have to go to the website to check how many fare stages you are travelling for a particular journey, or which prepaid ticket is best for you.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect they have a large tab at the top of their home page on their website saying "Fares and Tickets" - which is pretty intuitive.

How much easier do you want it?

Bus Eireann certainly do not have their entire fares matrix on stops or buses nor do Dublin Bus - you still have to go to the website to check how many fare stages you are travelling for a particular journey, or which prepaid ticket is best for you.

You keep missing the point here.

Why would I check the website when I assumed my ticket was covered?
I thought TaxSaver worked as a direct account from your employer.

As I have explained to you over and over again I didn't know it was a SHZ ticket.

The system is not user friendly and not easy to understand unless you're familiar.

You clearly are and that's great, I wish I had noticed your informative and sarcastic posts before I embarked on that train but I didn't.

I went on an incorrect assumption and I admitted that but it doesn't change the fact that Irish Rail DO NOT make it easy for you to understand the zones.

They should be advertised elsewhere other than their website or online simple as.
Not everyone has access to the internet.

And DB do explain the fares and zones at the end of each timetable advertised on their stops, yes it's easier to calculate on their app or website but you can still manually calculate via their busstops.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

You keep missing the point here.

Why would I check the website when I assumed my ticket was covered?
I thought TaxSaver worked as a direct account from your employer.

As I have explained to you over and over again I didn't know it was a SHZ ticket.

The system is not user friendly and not easy to understand unless you're familiar.

You clearly are and that's great, I wish I had noticed your informative and sarcastic posts before I embarked on that train but I didn't.

I went on an incorrect assumption and I admitted that but it doesn't change the fact that Irish Rail DO NOT make it easy for you to understand the zones.

They should be advertised elsewhere other than their website or online simple as.
Not everyone has access to the internet.

And DB do explain the fares and zones at the end of each timetable advertised on their stops, yes it's easier to calculate on their app or website but you can still manually calculate via their busstops.

Hold on - I am not being the least bit sarcastic.

I'm actually being very clear about it - the mistake you made was that you assumed something and didn't bother to check whether that was right.

If I go into a shop I will check the price of an item before I buy it.

In the same way, if I'm paying for a service I go and check what the price is beforehand.

I don't go around making assumptions, which is what you did. Irish Rail have a very clearly labelled webpage with all of their fares and tickets listed.

And you are quite simply wrong about calculating the fares on Dublin Bus.

You cannot calculate what fare is correct on Dublin Bus without either going to the website, getting a paper version of the timetable or asking a driver. Why? Because there are no stage markings on any bus stop.

One stage does not equal one bus stop - it can be anything from 4 or 5 bus stops. The only way you can check that is to look at the stage listing which is on the online or paper timetables.

With Bus Eireann there are no stage listings publicly available - you have to check online using their fare calculator.

Sorry for being blunt about this, but assuming things just doesn't work in life.

Irish Rail fares are very simple.

There is a Dublin Suburban "Short Hop Zone" fare table, a Cork Suburban fare table, and for everything else Intercity fares apply.

JimsAlterEgo

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Would you not only be liable for the fare between Kilcock and Maynooth as the leap card covered you from Maynooth?

I would have thought this also