Irish Rail Fixed Penalty Notice, Rail Safety Act 2005

LXFlyer

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

I would have thought this also

I am pretty sure that split tickets like that aren't allowed.


If that were the case everyone would be getting a Short Hop ticket and a Kilcock-Maynooth season ticket rather than a Kilcock-Dublin season ticket.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

Hold on - I am not being the least bit sarcastic.

I'm actually being very clear about it - the mistake you made was that you assumed something and didn't bother to check whether that was right.

If I go into a shop I will check the price of an item before I buy it.

In the same way, if I'm paying for a service I go and check what the price is beforehand.

I don't go around making assumptions, which is what you did. Irish Rail have a very clearly labelled webpage with all of their fares and tickets listed.

And you are quite simply wrong about calculating the fares on Dublin Bus.

You cannot calculate what fare is correct on Dublin Bus without either going to the website, getting a paper version of the timetable or asking a driver. Why? Because there are no stage markings on any bus stop.

One stage does not equal one bus stop - it can be anything from 4 or 5 bus stops. The only way you can check that is to look at the stage listing which is on the online or paper timetables.

With Bus Eireann there are no stage listings publicly available - you have to check online using their fare calculator.

Sorry for being blunt about this, but assuming things just doesn't work in life.

For the millionth time, I was not buying any ticket.
It was NOT my money.

Yes if it had of been my money of course I would have checked because I'd like to know what my money is going on but again it was not my money, it was my employer's and I left everything to them and had thought any charges would just go to them, thats how I thought TaxSaver worked.

If I had any inclination that something wasn't right I would have checked, but nothing seemed wrong, no barriers beeped back at me, no nothing!

If I had any clue I was doing something wrong do you honestly think I would have have risked having to pay out of my own pocket? Considering my travel was free anyway??

I know now I should have checked but nothing seemed wrong so I never felt the need!

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I simply cannot afford to pay anything out of my own pocket.
I've an exam in three weeks on which my job depends and right now all I can think about is how I will fix this without having to move home considering anything over €200 would be the last straw for me now.

This is a mistake that i simply could not afford to make but now it's done and I am on here pleading for help on what to do next so if you have nothing helpful to say then just don't say anything.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I'm not sure what answer you want, but you are definitely looking for a specific one - you're being told the facts of the matter and don't seem to want to take them.

You could make an offer to pay the unpaid fares in instalments - that's about the best that can be done. There is sufficient evidence from the Leap history for them to bill you quite precisely.

Laura4193

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure that split tickets like that aren't allowed.


If that were the case everyone would be getting a Short Hop ticket and a Kilcock-Maynooth season ticket rather than a Kilcock-Dublin season ticket.

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

From a booking office; or via the taxsaver system if appropriate. They appear to be still selling annuals despite Kilcock entering the SHZ within a year.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

I'm not sure what answer you want, but you are definitely looking for a specific one - you're being told the facts of the matter and don't seem to want to take them.

You could make an offer to pay the unpaid fares in instalments - that's about the best that can be done. There is sufficient evidence from the Leap history for them to bill you quite precisely.

The evidence they're going on though is the assumption that any time I didn't tag on or I didn't tag off that I was getting on to and from Kilcock which isn't true.

There were times gates would be open either at Tara or Maynooth and I'd run through without tagging.
Again, thinking it's a season ticket, it's already paid for.

Laura4193

L1011 wrote: »

From a booking office; or via the taxsaver system if appropriate. They appear to be still selling annuals despite Kilcock entering the SHZ within a year.

Well see this is what I thought I had, some sort of season ticket that covered a large area.

It's just a massive massive stupid ignorant misunderstanding but I just think it's ridiculous that my job had actually been paying a lot every month for a ticket and now they're acting like there was never a ticket to start with.

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

How do you get a Kilcock- Dublin season ticket? Are there any info on these cause so far now all I can find is the SHZ tickets (ironically enough)

Check the Dublin-Sligo line fare tables on the fares page on the website.

It will give you the various fares.

To buy it - go to a booking office or via the tax saver website.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

flexcon

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And I think in all honestly - this part is a joke.

Seems the OP point is going missing here on this part, work took care of everything. No signs ever that something was going wrong. And that alone is heartbreaking for the OP I am sure, as there clearly wasn't an intent going on what they said.

Factually yes, you are screwed if they wanted the money. But if we all ended up cold like this, then what a bloody great society it would be eh? Hence why grey areas exist in the first place.

I mean in court, if you plead guilty, and are found guilty, you often get leniency for admitting guilt when the sentence gets given to you.

In this case, the OP offered all evidence up and showed how plausible the error was made. Its this point I would be putting forward to Irish rail - requesting leniency.

I hope you get this sorted, and you come out with some arrangement that suits both parties. IMHO, getting punished like with a whopper of a fine, a threat of court is unwarranted and Irish rail should meet somewhere to fix this situation.

I get it that those out there will insist that a fair was evaded,but we all know in Ireland, they do make things overcomplicated at times, and a situation like this was bound to happen eventually. Why? Well the OP is a prime example of this, no intent to do wrong, but punished in the same way as someone who would intently try and avoid the fare. as a society I'd love to see us stick up for those people, and distinguish between those that dodge fares on purpose.

Lastly to add, looks like this station was one, just one beyond the zone where it was valid for. Not as if the OP has stated they think they can go to cork and that is it. And funnily enough, this station is now actually being added to the list soon anyway? I think common sense back from Irish rail would be needed here too

LXFlyer

Laura4193 wrote: »

For the millionth time, I was not buying any ticket.
It was NOT my money.

Yes if it had of been my money of course I would have checked because I'd like to know what my money is going on but again it was not my money, it was my employer's and I left everything to them and had thought any charges would just go to them, thats how I thought TaxSaver worked.

If I had any inclination that something wasn't right I would have checked, but nothing seemed wrong, no barriers beeped back at me, no nothing!

If I had any clue I was doing something wrong do you honestly think I would have have risked having to pay out of my own pocket? Considering my travel was free anyway??

I know now I should have checked but nothing seemed wrong so I never felt the need!

Your posts don't exactly give any help or information on what to do next, only on what I should have done and as I said before it's no use to me now.

I simply cannot afford to pay anything out of my own pocket.
I've an exam in three weeks on which my job depends and right now all I can think about is how I will fix this without having to move home considering anything over €200 would be the last straw for me now.

This is a mistake that i simply could not afford to make but now it's done and I am on here pleading for help on what to do next so if you have nothing helpful to say then just don't say anything.

Presumably though you told work in the first place what journey you were going to make (which was I assume you said was from Maynooth) so that they could buy your ticket, and you subsequently (and independently) decided to take the train from Kilcock.

Look I do sympathise with your situation, it's the argument that you're putting forward to defend yourself that I have a problem with, in terms of assuming a ticket would be valid anywhere.

You ask what you should do - go and get independent legal advice asap. That is the best thing you can do now.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Who told your work what ticket to buy. If they represented to you that you would be covered and you weren't maybe you can hold them responsible.
Then it becomes a matter if you can extract anything out of them without screwing up your employment. Maybe you should just stay silent.

flexcon

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Who told your work what ticket to buy. If they represented to you that you would be covered and you weren't maybe you can hold them responsible.
Then it becomes a matter if you can extract anything out of them without screwing up your employment. Maybe you should just stay silent.

I wonder though if she told work originally of the station she is using, would they have paid that anyway? And if they would have, then they should perhaps look into paying the fair that was owed all along, but the OP pays the fine itself of €100.

Depends on the size of the company and its structure of course.

Laura4193

flexcon wrote: »

And I think in all honestly - this part is a joke.

Seems the OP point is going missing here on this part, work took care of everything. No signs ever that something was going wrong. And that alone is heartbreaking for the OP I am sure, as there clearly wasn't an intent going on what they said.

Factually yes, you are screwed if they wanted the money. But if we all ended up cold like this, then what a bloody great society it would be eh? Hence why grey areas exist in the first place.

I mean in court, if you plead guilty, and are found guilty, you often get leniency for admitting guilt when the sentence gets given to you.

In this case, the OP offered all evidence up and showed how plausible the error was made. Its this point I would be putting forward to Irish rail - requesting leniency.

I hope you get this sorted, and you come out with some arrangement that suits both parties. IMHO, getting punished like with a whopper of a fine, a threat of court is unwarranted and Irish rail should meet somewhere to fix this situation.

I get it that those out there will insist that a fair was evaded,but we all know in Ireland, they do make things overcomplicated at times, and a situation like this was bound to happen eventually. Why? Well the OP is a prime example of this, no intent to do wrong, but punished in the same way as someone who would intently try and avoid the fare. as a society I'd love to see us stick up for those people, and distinguish between those that dodge fares on purpose.

Lastly to add, looks like this station was one, just one beyond the zone where it was valid for. Not as if the OP has stated they think they can go to cork and that is it. And funnily enough, this station is now actually being added to the list soon anyway? I think common sense back from Irish rail would be needed here too

Thank you!

Laura4193

flexcon wrote: »

I wonder though if she told work originally of the station she is using, would they have paid that anyway? And if they would have, then they should perhaps look into paying the fair that was owed all along, but the OP pays the fine itself of €100.

Depends on the size of the company and its structure of course.

Yes they would have paid, that's the unfortunate thing!
I had only just moved after getting the job and had just known I could get a train or a bus from Maynooth, I didn't even know Kilcock was a train station at this point so I told work Maynooth cause that was the only station I was sure of.

After finding parking difficult and realising Kilcock was actually closer and handier for parking I started hopping on there, genuinely believing I was doing nothing wrong.

Now that they're backdating the fares it's too much for work, its €700 lump sum and I work for a small company so that would be a lot especially for someone who's only in the door and already hanging by a thread.

TonyStark

Laura4193 wrote: »

So there's been an update so far..

I called on Thursday 16/03 to pay as the Notice was finally showing online for me.

The guys in the Head Office only quoted me for €108.10, the original fine plus the fare.

I've paid that and now on their online service it says I'm fully paid up.

But, here's my problem, I got a letter dated 14th March telling me to pay up €696.60 (86 trips of €8.10) as they've gone back on the assumption of me not tagging on or off would be the same Kilcock to Dublin route.

Because I've been told since the letter has been written that I'm paid up do yous think this will actually be the end of it now?
I can't understand why their online system would quote me the full amount otherwise?

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Laura4193

TonyStark wrote: »

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking.. Like I paid the fine as soon as I could and even when I ring you're not allowed to speak to the fines unit at all and anyone else just thinks I've paid up because they only have access to the original fine so I'd have to go chasing them to pay them which I think is even more madness!

Indricotherium

TonyStark wrote: »

So they are fining you for "assumed" usage? Ring head office and get them to send you a letter with a statement of what you owe them. Presumably this is zero. Unless they can prove every single one of those journeys via CCTV or other means refuse to pay. By all means pay the fine they caught you for. Everything else let them whistle for it.

Prove every single one of the journeys by CCTV? Ya mad scone, read the back of your ticket.

Tag on tag off.

There's an admission already made that the journeys were from Kilcock.

hullaballoo

Does anyone know what powers IR have in relation to the recovery of unpaid fares? They are governed by their own set of laws but in the ordinary course, you'd think that they are only entitled to the difference between the fare paid and what ought to have been paid. That's how it would work with any private company seeking to recover this kind of debt. Unless they are specifically entitled to seek the full value of the fare that ought to have been paid without any kind of set-off in relation to the sums actually paid in respect of the trips, I find it hard to see how they could stand over the position that they are entitled to it?

Laura4193

Indricotherium wrote: »

Prove every single one of the journeys by CCTV? Ya mad scone, read the back of your ticket.

Tag on tag off.

There's an admission already made that the journeys were from Kilcock.

Only problem there is I know every single one isn't Kilcock, some are actually Maynooth/Tara where I'd leg it through the open gates.

Yeah you're not supposed to but again I had paid for Maynooth to Dublin at the least so not like I was trying to get away with anything, was just rushing.

Indricotherium

Laura4193 wrote: »

Only problem there is I know every single one isn't Kilcock, some are actually Maynooth/Tara where I'd leg it through the open gates.

Yeah you're not supposed to but again I had paid for Maynooth to Dublin at the least so not like I was trying to get away with anything, was just rushing.

You're back to the terms and conditions of the ticket you've paid for there.

Tag on and off or risk an assumption like this down the road.

flexcon

Indricotherium wrote: »

You're back to the terms and conditions of the ticket you've paid for there.

Tag on and off or risk an assumption like this down the road.

Anyone out there is there an online version for the terms and conditions with the tagging?

I'm trying to find it, but the IR site is acting slow on me and some pages are 404

Laura4193

Indricotherium wrote: »

You're back to the terms and conditions of the ticket you've paid for there.

Tag on and off or risk an assumption like this down the road.

That's fair enough but any time I didn't tag on or off for Maynooth and Tara were already paid for as my ticket was prepaid for those journeys, just not including Kilcock so they've no right to charge me a Kilcock fare on those occasions as I was nowhere near Kilcock then.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

L1011

Laura4193 wrote: »

The evidence they're going on though is the assumption that any time I didn't tag on or I didn't tag off that I was getting on to and from Kilcock which isn't true.

There were times gates would be open either at Tara or Maynooth and I'd run through without tagging.
Again, thinking it's a season ticket, it's already paid for.

I would imagine they are solely using evening tag-ins without a tag-out and morning tag-outs without a tag-in to work this out. The number of times those happened when not using Kilcock is, I assume, only a small amount of the total incidences. Its up to you to prove these events - they have good data and an admission that you were using the ticket to Kilcock.

Indricotherium

flexcon wrote: »

Anyone out there is there an online version for the terms and conditions with the tagging?

I'm trying to find it, but the IR site is acting slow on me and some pages are 404

probably the traffic due to this thread!

Laura4193

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So would I be right in saying now that I've paid the actual fine I was originally quoted for that the criminal aspect of this has gone?
It would just be a civil case now?

LXFlyer

flexcon wrote: »

Anyone out there is there an online version for the terms and conditions with the tagging?

I'm trying to find it, but the IR site is acting slow on me and some pages are 404

https://www.leapcard.ie/en/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d

2.4 In order to be valid, a Leap Card must:

(a) have a valid Ticket on it for which the Leap Card customer is eligible in accordance with the Conditions of Carriage of the relevant Transport Operator and that is valid for the whole journey being made; or

(b) have a positive Travel Credit balance (at the time of “Touch-On”) where the Leap Card does not contain a Ticket valid for that full journey;

(c) have been lawfully obtained;

(d) not have been intentionally damaged, defaced, altered or tampered with in any way.

2.5 You must have a valid ticket to travel. This means that when using Travel Credit or a ticket pre-loaded onto the Leap Card, you must always successfully “Touch-On” prior to commencing any journey. Leap Card customers will receive visual and/or audible signal notification when they successfully Touch-On.

If you using a Student Leap Card as an ID to buy paper tickets at discounted student fares you must present your Student Leap Card at the time of purchase in order to avail of the student fare. When using your Student Leap Card as an ID in conjunction with a student paper ticket you do not need to “Touch-On” your Student Leap Card. If you “Touch-On” you will be charged. You must have your Student Leap Card available for inspection when travelling on a discounted student ticket.

Further information is available in the “How to use a Leap Card” and “FAQs” sections of www.leapcard.ie.

If you are asked by an employee of a Transport Operator to show your ticket, show your Leap Card (or Student Leap Card if travelling using Leap Travel Credit or a Leap ticket). This can be checked to show that you have Touched-On correctly. If you do not have a valid ticket or you have not “Touched-On” you will be issued with a Standard Fare Notice by the Transport Operator subject to the Conditions of Carriage of that Transport Operator and may also be prosecuted for fare evasion.

Leap Card customers must also “Touch-Off” on Luas and Irish Rail services in accordance with the Conditions of Carriage of the relevant Transport Operator. Failure to Touch-Off in these circumstances when using Travel Credit will result in the maximum value of any journey which initiates from the Touch-On location having been charged to the Leap Card.

hullaballoo

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I was wondering do the bylaws include a provision that allows them to take a civil case to recover a debt for the full amount of what should have been paid without allowing a defendant to set off the money already paid.

In the absence such a provision, I cannot see how they can insist on getting paid the full amount of the fares on top of the money already paid in respect of the trips.