Sale agreed but bad surveyors report

Paddytheman

So finally went sale agreed a couple of weeks ago but now the surveyor has been in and his report states theres a need for €15,000 work to make the property "Structurally Sound".

We have maxed out in our bid so its not an option for us to stump up but Im just wondering if there is any responsibility on the vendor in this situation or anyones experience in such??

Cheers...

Danbo!

Paddytheman wrote: »

So finally went sale agreed a couple of weeks ago but now the surveyor has been in and his report states theres a need for €15,000 work to make the property "Structurally Sound".

We have maxed out in our bid so its not an option for us to stump up but Im just wondering if there is any responsibility on the vendor in this situation or anyones experience in such??

Cheers...

You agreed a price under the assumption the house is structurally sound. Nothing is signed and either party can back out. So either get your deposit back and keep looking, or see if the seller will negotiate based on the findings.

They may be willing to drop the price to avoid the hassle of going through the selling process again, only for the next buyer to find the same thing. You may not get the full €15k off the price but no harm seeing what they're open to.

Retrovertigo

Danbo! wrote: »

You agreed a price under the assumption the house is structurally sound. Nothing is signed and either party can back out. So either get your deposit back and keep looking, or see if the seller will negotiate based on the findings.

They may be willing to drop the price to avoid the hassle of going through the selling process again, only for the next buyer to find the same thing. You may not get the full €15k off the price but no harm seeing what they're open to.

The best advice you could possibly get.

Parchment

This happened us - we tried to negotiate the price with the seller and he refused point blank. Our costs would have been maybe 20-25k with the structural issues.

We provided sections of the report to show the issues. Vendor still refused. We pulled out and the house remains for sale 1.5 years later!

Samuel T. Cogley

Sale agreed is at best a 50/50 you'll eventually end up with the house so keep looking. My brother-in-law had to pull out of his sale after months of negotiating over an issue. He offered to let them fix it, he offered to pay less for the house, no dice. Within 48 hours of pulling out of the sale they had come back to him offering him the full €15K reduction for a problem that eventually cost him a fraction of that to fix.

Every situation if different but just keep in mind sale agreed means very little.

The_Conductor

'Structually sound' and the suggestion that 15k will achieve the desired result- to be brutally honest, it sounds like the surveyor was out to find something wrong....... There is very little structural work that could possibly be done for 15k.

Given the suggestion that whatever the surveyor has found can be rectified at a cost of 15k- I'd suggest it doesn't sound too serious- I honestly don't think its the sort of dealer breaker some others here are suggesting it might be.........

Gumbo

I would love to hear what is required.
15k in theory could buy you enough steel for a 3 storey apartment block. A small one but still.


OP, can you clarify what the structural issues are?

The_Conductor

kceire wrote: »

I would love to hear what is required.
15k in theory could buy you enough steel for a 3 storey apartment block. A small one but still.


OP, can you clarify what the structural issues are?

Big time.
It would also buy you 9,000 cinder blocks- if you were really into construction work........
However- you're not going to get a structural job of any consequence done for 15k- hell, you'd be hard-pressed to get a sunroom added on the back for 15k.......

What is the structural issue that the surveyor identified- and if it is a 15k job- do you honestly view it as a sticking point?

super_furry

If the seller is unwilling to negotiate on the price, walk away. Don't expect them to drop the full €15k though.

The_Conductor

super_furry wrote: »

If the seller is unwilling to negotiate on the price, walk away. Don't expect them to drop the full €15k though.

It depends- some surveyors honestly believe they aren't doing their jobs properly- if they don't find something for a prospective purchaser........

If its something minor- I wouldn't get hung up over it.

super_furry

I don't think it's minor if it needs €15k spent to make it "structurally sound" though. All a bit academic when we're guessing at what the issue might be, but if it were me, I'd be looking for a reduction of around €10k from the seller but if pushed would probably settling on splitting it 50/50 at €7.5k.

Penn

The_Conductor wrote: »

It depends- some surveyors honestly believe they aren't doing their jobs properly- if they don't find something for a prospective purchaser........

In a way, that's true. However, terms like "structurally sound" aren't used lightly by any surveyor worth their salt.

The_Conductor

Perhaps the OP might like to elaborate on what the issue uncovered actually is?

Paddytheman

Of course.

There was an attic conversion in which they cut/altered the middle of the trusses that support the roof. It is the roof that is not structurally sound. A suggestion given is to insert two steel beams, obviously given the location in the attic this makes completing the job much more difficult. The price quoted was a maximum for the works to be carried out.

Regarding it being a deal breaker I stated above that we maxed out in our bid so don't have the budget to carry out such work.

Thanks for your responses.

The_Conductor

Ahh gotcha.
You've actually gone to the very extreme of your budget- you have no slack whatsoever you can put towards this?
I presumed in the context of buying a property that you'd have some sort of leeway........

I don't understand what the current owners thought they were doing- I mean what you're describing is just nuts.

Obviously the first stop is with the vendor- see what you can achieve there- however, if they're not willing to engage with you- is there any merit in approaching your mortgage lender and explaining the situation to them- and seeing if they'll be a little more flexible with you (that is of course, if you're sure you want this specific property).

Gumbo

Paddytheman wrote: »

Of course.

There was an attic conversion in which they cut/altered the middle of the trusses that support the roof. It is the roof that is not structurally sound. A suggestion given is to insert two steel beams, obviously given the location in the attic this makes completing the job much more difficult. The price quoted was a maximum for the works to be carried out.

Regarding it being a deal breaker I stated above that we maxed out in our bid so don't have the budget to carry out such work.

Thanks for your responses.

Ok so there's an attic conversion.
Here's the important piece of information required : the surveyor is saying that steel is required? In what basis?

I've done many attic conversions and 50% of them have involved no steel whatsoever. The structural work can be done in timber using a mixture of glue, bolts and nails believe it or not

Also, the Derek is in the detail here, the roof is. It a structural item with regards to Part A (Stricture) of the Building Regikatikns and thus requires a less amount of structural design than say a wall or floor, but if the roof is hanging into the floor joists for example, then it becomes a structural item.

You need more detail and the 15k the surveyor has quotes is for the complete removal of the attic and reinstatement if required.
He is basically saying, get an engineer in to view the bare bones of the attic conversion and make a judgement.

If you buy, allow a few k to go in and retrospectively add steel if required but it will not be 15k or anywhere near it IMHO (based on the info supplied at this time).

Paddytheman

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ahh gotcha.
You've actually gone to the very extreme of your budget- you have no slack whatsoever you can put towards this?
I presumed in the context of buying a property that you'd have some sort of leeway........

I don't understand what the current owners thought they were doing- I mean what you're describing is just nuts.

Obviously the first stop is with the vendor- see what you can achieve there- however, if they're not willing to engage with you- is there any merit in approaching your mortgage lender and explaining the situation to them- and seeing if they'll be a little more flexible with you (that is of course, if you're sure you want this specific property).

We have cash to carry out work we have planned ie room upgrades but have paid what we are willing to pay for the house, it's not a matter of getting the money, we have offered in my opinion slightly more than the house was worth already as that is what it is worth to us.

We expected a safe environment for our family for the price and that's not what we are being offered.

Paddytheman

kceire wrote: »

Ok so there's an attic conversion.
Here's the important piece of information required : the surveyor is saying that steel is required? In what basis?

I've done many attic conversions and 50% of them have involved no steel whatsoever. The structural work can be done in timber using a mixture of glue, bolts and nails believe it or not

Also, the Derek is in the detail here, the roof is. It a structural item with regards to Part A (Stricture) of the Building Regikatikns and thus requires a less amount of structural design than say a wall or floor, but if the roof is hanging into the floor joists for example, then it becomes a structural item.

You need more detail and the 15k the surveyor has quotes is for the complete removal of the attic and reinstatement if required.
He is basically saying, get an engineer in to view the bare bones of the attic conversion and make a judgement.

If you buy, allow a few k to go in and retrospectively add steel if required but it will not be 15k or anywhere near it IMHO (based on the info supplied at this time).

Without going into too much detail but support was removed and now there's a dip and a crack involved so it seems like steel is required to resolve the problem, an architect friend confirmed this in a chat earlier having seen the report.

I was really hoping for anyone's experience in what has been described to me as the "horse trading" that likely takes place now.

the_syco

Paddytheman wrote: »

So finally went sale agreed a couple of weeks ago but now the surveyor has been in and his report states theres a need for €15,000 work to make the property "Structurally Sound".

Paddytheman wrote: »

Without going into too much detail but support was removed and now there's a dip and a crack involved so it seems like steel is required to resolve the problem, an architect friend confirmed this in a chat earlier having seen the report.

Will you be using it as an attic or as a room, and is the 15k to fix it as an attic, or is the 15k to fix it to meet regulations for it to be a room? I assume the latter would be more expensive due to regulations?

If the latter, consider fixing it to an attic now, and properly convert it at a later time when you have the funds to do so, if there is a large gap in price.

Gumbo

Paddytheman wrote: »

Without going into too much detail but support was removed and now there's a dip and a crack involved so it seems like steel is required to resolve the problem, an architect friend confirmed this in a chat earlier having seen the report.

I was really hoping for anyone's experience in what has been described to me as the "horse trading" that likely takes place now.

Well, without going into too much detail, get an engineers opinion before you decide anything, especially if you really want the house.

This could be something simple like a purlin replacement or some form of remedial support that can be done from inside without any destructive works taking place.

Lekrub

Hi what type of survey was carried out? Was this picked up on your standard survey for the bank or was it an extra one for piece of mind?

Tough call but no way would I ignore his advice. If your budget is maxed, what happens if there is a problem 1 year in. No one has seen the roof so can't comment how much of a bend there is in it.

Alkers

You need a structural engineer to make a call on that, not a surveyor. In any case, explain the situation and see if you can get a reduction in the sale agreed price, citing the findings.

loyatemu

are you borrowing money to buy this place? If there's an attic conversion the bank may want to see a cert of compliance and/or an engineers cert; from the sounds of things the vendor has done it on the cheap and may not have these documents.

Lekrub

Simona1986 wrote: »

You need a structural engineer to make a call on that, not a surveyor. In any case, explain the situation and see if you can get a reduction in the sale agreed price, citing the findings.

I'd like to know did a regular surveyor pick up on this or was it a engineer. And if it was, was he from the likes of The Society of Chartered Surveyors etc...

Reason is I feel like it's a job well done.

Paddytheman

the_syco wrote: »

Will you be using it as an attic or as a room, and is the 15k to fix it as an attic, or is the 15k to fix it to meet regulations for it to be a room? I assume the latter would be more expensive due to regulations?

If the latter, consider fixing it to an attic now, and properly convert it at a later time when you have the funds to do so, if there is a large gap in price.

The work required is to make the roof structurally sound, the room is a bedroom at present and is to be used as such for visitors. I am aware of the regulations involved so it was never going to be an "official" 4th bedroom.

Paddytheman

Lekrub wrote: »

Hi what type of survey was carried out? Was this picked up on your standard survey for the bank or was it an extra one for piece of mind?

Tough call but no way would I ignore his advice. If your budget is maxed, what happens if there is a problem 1 year in. No one has seen the roof so can't comment how much of a bend there is in it.

Cheers Lekrub, it was an extra survey we had carried out by a highly reccomened surveyor. Money in the bank for upgrade work we have planned and of course a fall back kitty but the house is worth what we have agreed to pay, cant justify ploughing another 15,000 before turning the key.

Paddytheman

loyatemu wrote: »

are you borrowing money to buy this place? If there's an attic conversion the bank may want to see a cert of compliance and/or an engineers cert; from the sounds of things the vendor has done it on the cheap and may not have these documents.

There is a cert of compliance for the work. Have spoken to people in the trade and they all said they would trust my survey over such a document!

SB_Part2

Why are people questioning what the surveyor said?

Paddytheman

Paddytheman wrote: »

Of course.

There was an attic conversion in which they cut/altered the middle of the trusses that support the roof. It is the roof that is not structurally sound. A suggestion given is to insert two steel beams, obviously given the location in the attic this makes completing the job much more difficult. The price quoted was a maximum for the works to be carried out.

Regarding it being a deal breaker I stated above that we maxed out in our bid so don't have the budget to carry out such work.

Thanks for your responses.

I came across the EXACT same issue a couple of years ago. I decided to walk on the advice of my engineer. We didn't even consider repairing it. In addition the owners were putting other residents at risk so we weren't sure of what legalities we would have left ourselves open to. (Apartment building)

So if it is an apartment OP, then take legal advice as well as an engineers.

Penn

kceire wrote: »

Ok so there's an attic conversion.
Here's the important piece of information required : the surveyor is saying that steel is required? In what basis?

I've done many attic conversions and 50% of them have involved no steel whatsoever. The structural work can be done in timber using a mixture of glue, bolts and nails believe it or not

Also, the Derek is in the detail here, the roof is. It a structural item with regards to Part A (Stricture) of the Building Regikatikns and thus requires a less amount of structural design than say a wall or floor, but if the roof is hanging into the floor joists for example, then it becomes a structural item.

You need more detail and the 15k the surveyor has quotes is for the complete removal of the attic and reinstatement if required.
He is basically saying, get an engineer in to view the bare bones of the attic conversion and make a judgement.

If you buy, allow a few k to go in and retrospectively add steel if required but it will not be 15k or anywhere near it IMHO (based on the info supplied at this time).

Sorry kceire but I'd really disagree with a lot of that. In normal cut roofs, you'd be right enough, but it being a prefab truss roof creates a whole different set of issues.

Truss roofs are designed so all the elements are working in conjunction with each other. That's why the timber sizes are smaller than normal cut roofs, because all the pieces are engineered and designed to act completely as a whole, and also why the trusses can be at wider spacings (typically 600mm c/c rather than 400mm c/c for a cut roof). If you remove pieces of a prefab roof truss, which it sounds like they did in this case, you affect the stability of each other member of the truss.

Since the members of the truss are undersized and at wider spacings compared to standard cut roofs, it's likely that the bottom members acting as floor joists are now undersized. Same with the rafters. Typically in attic conversions, this requires new steel beams to carry the new load-bearing stud partitions (which will support the roof rather than purlins as you need to create new walls within the attic for the conversion anyway), and new floor joists between the existing prefab truss to create a new floor.

If they haven't done this and rather have just cut the existing truss and added new walls which are now sitting on the undersized and improperly supported bottom member of the truss (which is now also acting as the floor of a habitable room rather than an attic), then the surveyor is right that the works could cost around €15k to correct this.

As others have said, I'd advise engaging an engineer to see exactly what works need to be done. I'd also suggest getting your solicitor to request certification from the owner's engineer or architect who designed and oversaw the attic conversion works. It seems incredibly doubtful anyone did, but it will strengthen your case for getting a reduction in the sale price of the house because it's something anyone buying the house should be looking for even if you pass on the house.

@penn

@penn. Great post. What you've just said there is how our engineer described the problem we experienced, so we walked at the time and got our deposit back.