Sale agreed but bad surveyors report

Gumbo

Penn wrote: »

Sorry kceire but I'd really disagree with a lot of that. In normal cut roofs, you'd be right enough, but it being a prefab truss roof creates a whole different set of issues.

Truss roofs are designed so all the elements are working in conjunction with each other. That's why the timber sizes are smaller than normal cut roofs, because all the pieces are engineered and designed to act completely as a whole, and also why the trusses can be at wider spacings (typically 600mm c/c rather than 400mm c/c for a cut roof). If you remove pieces of a prefab roof truss, which it sounds like they did in this case, you affect the stability of each other member of the truss.

Since the members of the truss are undersized and at wider spacings compared to standard cut roofs, it's likely that the bottom members acting as floor joists are now undersized. Same with the rafters. Typically in attic conversions, this requires new steel beams to carry the new load-bearing stud partitions (which will support the roof rather than purlins as you need to create new walls within the attic for the conversion anyway), and new floor joists between the existing prefab truss to create a new floor.

If they haven't done this and rather have just cut the existing truss and added new walls which are now sitting on the undersized and improperly supported bottom member of the truss (which is now also acting as the floor of a habitable room rather than an attic), then the surveyor is right that the works could cost around €15k to correct this.

As others have said, I'd advise engaging an engineer to see exactly what works need to be done. I'd also suggest getting your solicitor to request certification from the owner's engineer or architect who designed and oversaw the attic conversion works. It seems incredibly doubtful anyone did, but it will strengthen your case for getting a reduction in the sale price of the house because it's something anyone buying the house should be looking for even if you pass on the house.

I'm not disagreeing with you either btw, I recommended an engineer in my first post a couple of pages back. I didn't know the op confirmed it is a prefab truss roof.

What I am questioning is the 15k repair bill that the surveyor mentioned. And I insisted to get an engineer if it was a house that the OP really wanted.

What I am saying is that the lack of steel doesn't make it dangerous, it could have been designed with timber.

I won't get into the conversation about floor thickness or floor joists as you are correct here, and I know too well about their importance but that wasn't my gripe.

The roof is not considered a structural item under Part A of the Building Regulations and that was my main point I suppose.

OscarBluth

To answer the q re: negotiating: our surveyors report came up with 40k worth of work needed, which was a huge shock to us.

We went to the vendors and asked for a 20k reduction: essentially, the house was old and needed upgrading/an extension, and we had already budgeted for a significant extension and a bit of an internal refurb but not for that level of work before we considered the extension costs (there were problems with the roof that were unexpected, etc)

Our vendors gave us 5k off (which was 1k below the underbidder) and said if we weren't happy with that they'd go to the underbidder. In the end, having gone back to our surveyor, we went ahead. Our surveyor had budgeted 40k on what was needed to bring the house up to modern standards, despite it being nearly 100 years old, and had included the cost of a new roof when he reckoned in reality, with the right repairs we could get another 10 years out of it. He was happy to have a frank conversation when we were clear that we wanted a clear understanding of what was essential, what was necessary in the medium term and what was nice to have, so a different situation than what you're in.

From looking at property register for other houses we were underbidders on, it is clear some people do get substantial discounts. We were underbidders on one house that was inching up in 1k increments, and I was quite annoyed to see the final price was 25k under what we'd bid- clearly the result of a survey, but again, it was clear to us a lot of work would be needed and we'd priced accordingly.

I think send an extract of the report, explain you were aware the house needed some work but you think this fundamental structural issue is significant and unexpected, and be clear what discount you want. I would be surprised if you got the full 15k off, but probably worth using it as a starting point.

NEWBIEGRL8

Reading this thread and I have just been in a similar situation as a seller where the buyer has pulled out at the 11th hour.
The buyer went to an architect/planner to get a report done NOT a structural engineer and came back with a report which was unprofessional, factually incorrect and stating €20k worth of work was needed on the house. We gave the report to someone who was a structural engineer for their opinion and they said that the report was clearly done by someone who was associated with the buyer and was geared in such a way to get a lot of money knocked off the asking price. The engineer could not believe some of the comments that were made on the report and it was clear that the architect was well out of his area of expertise to make some of the comments made.
Based on his advise after that I did not even entertain the buyer and told the EA to go to the under bidder who we are hoping will still be interested.

My point being is that there are people out there trying to score large discounts and using any tactic they can to try and squeeze the seller into a corner.
The house in question had a substantial amount of money put in for renovations when it was bought originally and has been maintained to a high standard throughout. In this case its "seller beware".

allibastor

Paddytheman wrote: »

Without going into too much detail but support was removed and now there's a dip and a crack involved so it seems like steel is required to resolve the problem, an architect friend confirmed this in a chat earlier having seen the report.

I was really hoping for anyone's experience in what has been described to me as the "horse trading" that likely takes place now.

Here is experience, go speak to the vendor with the report in hand. Say you are willing to go through with sale but issues need sorting prior to sale, or else reduction in price. Negotiate this.

Walk away if not happpy

davindub

NEWBIEGRL8 wrote: »

Reading this thread and I have just been in a similar situation as a seller where the buyer has pulled out at the 11th hour.
The buyer went to an architect/planner to get a report done NOT a structural engineer and came back with a report which was unprofessional, factually incorrect and stating €20k worth of work was needed on the house. We gave the report to someone who was a structural engineer for their opinion and they said that the report was clearly done by someone who was associated with the buyer and was geared in such a way to get a lot of money knocked off the asking price. The engineer could not believe some of the comments that were made on the report and it was clear that the architect was well out of his area of expertise to make some of the comments made.
Based on his advise after that I did not even entertain the buyer and told the EA to go to the under bidder who we are hoping will still be interested.

My point being is that there are people out there trying to score large discounts and using any tactic they can to try and squeeze the seller into a corner.
The house in question had a substantial amount of money put in for renovations when it was bought originally and has been maintained to a high standard throughout. In this case its "seller beware".

Ah no I don't think so. The architect/ engineer/ former builder is playing it safe, list every issue and put a high estimate on the work. If they don't, they get comeback from the Buyer.

In turn the buyer panics, imagining the mortgage will be refused as they don't have the funds to repair, etc.

Cuddlesworth

NEWBIEGRL8 wrote: »

Reading this thread and I have just been in a similar situation as a seller where the buyer has pulled out at the 11th hour.
The buyer went to an architect/planner to get a report done NOT a structural engineer and came back with a report which was unprofessional, factually incorrect and stating €20k worth of work was needed on the house. We gave the report to someone who was a structural engineer for their opinion and they said that the report was clearly done by someone who was associated with the buyer and was geared in such a way to get a lot of money knocked off the asking price. The engineer could not believe some of the comments that were made on the report and it was clear that the architect was well out of his area of expertise to make some of the comments made.
Based on his advise after that I did not even entertain the buyer and told the EA to go to the under bidder who we are hoping will still be interested.

My point being is that there are people out there trying to score large discounts and using any tactic they can to try and squeeze the seller into a corner.
The house in question had a substantial amount of money put in for renovations when it was bought originally and has been maintained to a high standard throughout. In this case its "seller beware".

15k sounds about right after you pay off the architect and engineer, rebuild the walls/floor and redo the electrics(cause you know they are ****e). Its usually a complete redo since the first attempt was so bad. Its a decent ballpark figure.

I'd say your "engineer" would be less inclined to say anthing if he had to put his money where is mouth is.

Samuel T. Cogley

Sellers want over the odds, buyers will use every device to save a few quid, the engineers/surveyors etc. are all stuck in the middle (making a tidy sum). While it's underhanded of the buyer in some cases the seller has all the control, especially in a market that's hit bubble type growth!

Moonbeam

Every buyer with this house will have the same issue and your bank may pull the mortgage over the issues .
You could offer to go halves with the vendor or just leave it ,there will be more houses .

The_Conductor

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Sellers want over the odds, buyers will use every device to save a few quid, the engineers/surveyors etc. are all stuck in the middle (making a tidy sum). While it's underhanded of the buyer in some cases the seller has all the control, especially in a market that's hit bubble type growth!

If its going to cost 15k to rectify the issue- ask yourself, are you going to find a commensurate property for the price +15k, and then annoying though it may be- the course of least resistence- is probably to try one final time to negotiate with them, however, failing that- walk (if the issue is a dealbreaker for you).

Personally- I can't understand how or why someone would have screwed up as badly with an attic conversion- however, short and simple is- they did.

Would it be an opportunity to do a slightly more in-depth conversion to better suit your needs (think wiring for CAT 5- for a home office etc etc)?

The seller does hold the cards- because supply is constrained in the manner in which it is- it really comes down to whether you consider it to be a deal breaker or whether you're willing to work with it.

drunkmonkey

I just ran steel beams all around the house as part of an attic conversion. I think 15k is a very high if you were to go direct labour with the steel side of things. 5k would go a long way if it's straight forward. 1k for plans, 2k for steel, 1k labour and parts.
The amount of ripping to get the beam in and support them is where the real cost could be, also how well is the conversion insulated and vented, is the house breathing correctly? Conversion ceiling and walls may need to be ripped out to do it properly, could also do some damage to ceilings downstairs or crack walls shifting the weight to the steel.
Is the roof straight at the moment? You need a good crawl around that attic with possibly a roofer/carpenter and get a quote off them. (that's free, i'd be looking for the keys and get that done asap as you know exactly where you stand).

Paddytheman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I just ran steel beams all around the house as part of an attic conversion. I think 15k is a very high if you were to go direct labour with the steel side of things. 5k would go a long way if it's straight forward. 1k for plans, 2k for steel, 1k labour and parts.
The amount of ripping to get the beam in and support them is where the real cost could be, also how well is the conversion insulated and vented, is the house breathing correctly? Conversion ceiling and walls may need to be ripped out to do it properly, could also do some damage to ceilings downstairs or crack walls shifting the weight to the steel.
Is the roof straight at the moment? You need a good crawl around that attic with possibly a roofer/carpenter and get a quote off them. (that's free, i'd be looking for the keys and get that done asap as you know exactly where you stand).

Don't believe it would have been straight forward tbh. Very narrow staircase so imagine some damage would have been done to the house. The initial job hadn't been insulated properly and wasn't breathing properly, and the conversion ceiling was wooden and would need to be ripped out, not an easy job having spoken to a few people in the trade.

Vendor said they would have it repaired for €3000 but believe they reverted to the initial builder in whom we have no faith. Also other issues such as the toilet/sink in conversion had been plumbed to the mains. We withdrew from the process, onwards and upwards....

Prinks

Coming late to this thread, but I'm glad to see that the OP has pulled out. I've bought and sold four houses over the years, and the survey always had an effect on the final price - my asking price had to come down where work was needed, and my offer would be reduced if expensive work had to be done. Obviously it's different if you're buying a house that's already cheap because it needs work.