Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

BoatMad

Wintergirl wrote: »

No member of my family would out a parachute on their back and make their way to the cliffs of Moher, do people do these things with the prior approval of the OPW or whoever looks after the Cliffs of Moher, should they not pay for their own helicopter and ambulance to stand by in case the parachute opens.

I am a taxpayer and I am entitled to query how my taxes are being spent, the cost of the SAR is colossal, I and many other people would have had no idea prior to this accident how colossal.We wouldn't have had any idea either that two expensive helicopters and eight people would be sent out in the early morning to pick up someone with an injury to their finger.

We know now and we will be asking a lot of questions about this, unlike you we think in this particular incident should never have happened because the SAR shouldn't have been sent out.

I see, so had they crashed responding to a series injury that would be all right then

SAR response services cannot and must not play God. They simply are tasked to react and long may it continue

with the prior approval of the OPW or whoever looks after the Cliffs of Moher, should they not pay for their own helicopter and ambulance to stand by in case the parachute opens.

Its a mark of an open and free society , that we "let" people undertake activities that are life threatening and then lend then aid if that activity actually does end up being life threatening .

again long may it continue


Rescue 116 could not be saved by cotton-wooling the rescue services

Wintergirl

I think I will be banging my head off a lot of brick walls trying to get answers as to why two helicopters, note not too ambulances, too massive helicopters were sent to the Atlantic Ocean in the early morning to pick up someone with what appears to be the severed tip of a finger.I don't know though has the details of the injury been confirmed, will that come out in the final AAIU report.Hopefully there will be a recommendation that a triage system is used in future.

Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant, the money is all coming out of the one source so if we are spending millions on the SAR service then money is cut somewhere else.

BoatMad

Wintergirl wrote: »

I think I will be banging my head off a lot of brick walls trying to get answers as to why two helicopters, note not too ambulances, too massive helicopters were sent to the Atlantic Ocean in the early morning to pick up someone with what appears to be the severed tip of a finger.I don't know though has the details of the injury been confirmed, will that come out in the final AAIU report.Hopefully there will be a recommendation that a triage system is used in future.

Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant, the money is all coming out of the one source so if we are spending millions on the SAR service then money is cut somewhere else.

I have been a chairman of a RNLI lifeboat station. when a emergency call is received over a long distance at sea, it may or may not the possible to " triage " anything. Firstly all the people on the boat are not medial professionals and no-one professionally can " see " the injury. Equally long range communications at sea can be challenging and difficult to communicate detailed information

Yes rescue services perform " trivial " callouts all the time. but SAR services cannot play God. This fact seems to escape you

I was in the south Atlantic some year ago , when I spoke to a son, whose father had died at sea from head injuries. He was deeply upset that , based on his father initial reaction and the fact that he seemed " OK", they didi not react sooner.

This is what happens if you play God.


as for this comment

Of course access to surgery which is denied to many people because of lack of funding is relevant.

NO accident/emergency victim have ever been denied surgery in this country due to funds . What you are talking about is " elective " surgery

You really simply havent thought this through correctly.

TomOnBoard

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0422/869451-116/

It must be a logistical nightmare out there, on top of the difficult conditions. Be safe y'all!

Gadgetman496

Storm 10 wrote: »

Resue 115 tasking to Cliffs of Moher and UHG today

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/man-in-critical-condition-after-parachute-jump-from-cliff-in-clare-786710.html

Sadly that individual has passed away RIP.

http://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2017/0422/869487-parachute-jump/

TomOnBoard

It seems to suggest that the decision to evacuate was made by MRSC Malin, before discussing with with medic at Cork University Hospital. In fact, the doctor asks MRSC Malin 'is he going to be medevaced'. Perhaps the IRCG needs to review their procedures regarding tasking.

Professor Plum's observation that IRCG might look at procedures could also look at the time lag between two aircraft heading out. It is clear from the timelines in the report that neither aspect of R116's Top Cover mission could be fulfilled on the night as R118 and R116 were so far apart. For a mission requiring two aircraft, they would need to have been much closer together for the Top Cover element to be truly useful.

BoatMad

(2. History of the Mission - unable to copy and paste). It seems to suggest that the decision to evacuate was made by MRSC Malin, before discussing with with medic at Cork University Hospital. In fact, the doctor asks MRSC Malin 'is he going to be medevaced'. Perhaps the IRCG needs to review their procedures regarding tasking.

All decisions on Helicopter and Lifeboat assets are initially decided on by MRCC Malin or Valentia , The decision to launch is not taken primarily on an assessment of the medical situation , but more on the decision that the MMRC has been asked to help

A similar situation occurs with Lifeboat launches, irrespective of what the person calling for help asks for , the MMRC may independently decide to launch. so for example , you cant say over the radio , NO thanks on balance I dont need a lifeboat/helu, Malin or Valentia can independently decide that they will still launch

Yes, the result can be trivial launches (I wont diverge service records here, but some turn out to be laughably trivial ), but the principle behind SAR is " better safe then sorry ".

By an large the operating costs are incurred whether the crews are drinking tea at home or flying on a trivial SAR mission , so its not like a huge saying would be realised

Storm 10

I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned

BoatMad

As I understand it, calls are triaged through CUH,

it would be incorrect to say that there is any sort of what would be regarded as medical triage. When a call comes to an MMRC and medical help is required , then that call is relayed to a panel of response experts . Those experts may " influence " the decision to launch , but they have no authority to control that decision

BoatMad

Storm 10 wrote: »

I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned

That is always the case, the final decision to launch , is up to the local SAR command structure. But in the case if rescue 118 and 116 , there were no circumstances that would have resulted in a local decision not to launch.

The basic rule is , if MMRC says go, you go. ( for declared assets only )

BoatMad

Storm 10 wrote: »

I read on pprune where some SAR crews in the UK have turned down a mission themselves due distance and weather when tasked by the Coastguard, it's up to the crews to evaluate a mission and decide whether or not to go, I agree with another poster that the two helicopters were very far apart with 118 well out in the Atlantic and 118 would have probably met 116 halfway on the home run if it went as planned

Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business

Discodog

The idea that the injury wasn't serious enough is ridiculous. What's next ? Mayday Mayday we are sinking
How fast ? Can you get closer before calling us ?
Are you sure that you are sinking ?

TomOnBoard

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business

I fail to see what the former SAR support from the RAF has got to do with anything in 2017. Surely the protocols and procedures underpinning Top Cover involving a pair of S-92s have been written down somewhere and would involving tasking them as a pair, not as two separate entities far apart in time?

BoatMad

Discodog wrote: »

The idea that the injury wasn't serious enough is ridiculous. What's next ? Mayday Mayday we are sinking
How fast ? Can you get closer before calling us ?
Are you sure that you are sinking ?

indeed as the joke goes , Mayday mayday , we are thinking thinking
MMRC, OK OK, calm down what are you thinking about

no we are thinking thinking

MMRC, I know I know

Storm 10

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes buts that more an issue of the problem of Top cover. historically RAF valley provided most of Irelands top cover, but the RAF are not longer in the SAR business

No top cover was provided by RAF Nimrods based in Kinloss Scotland and not by helicopters, they provided helicopters if required to assist in search and rescue, miss hearing Rescue 51 and 52 on the old HF frequency during taskings

BoatMad

TomOnBoard wrote: »

I fail to see what the former SAR support from the RAF has got to do with anything in 2017. Surely the protocols and procedures underpinning Top Cover involving a pair of S-92s have been written down somewhere and would involving tasking them as a pair, not as two separate entities far apart in time?

err, you clearly have missed a few points


Top cover is far better applied by using a fast jet, Irish SAR used to have access ti RAF Nimrod to provide top cover and excellent is was as the relative speed difference, often meant that the Nimrod was over the scene first


The sequence in this case, was the Aer Corps was contacted to provide top cover and it declined to do , ( since it effectively is a 9-5 operation and its helicopters are less capable then the S-92)

MMRC directed 118 to launch , since its was the actual SAR event and it would be stupid to delay this .


116 was at the other side of the country and Helis are comparatively slow

A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.

BoatMad

Storm 10 wrote: »

No top cover was provided by RAF Nimrods based in Kinloss Scotland and not by helicopters, they provided helicopters if required to assist in search and rescue, miss hearing Rescue 51 and 52 on the old HF frequency during taskings

This is not actually true, for a period after the Nimrod withdrawal , top cover was provided from RAF Valley (using jets ) ( I mentioned the Nimrod top cover in the subsequent post ) RAF top cover ended on the exit from SAR activities by the RAF

Damien360

BoatMad wrote: »

A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.

I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?

BoatMad

Damien360 wrote: »

I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?

either satphobe or MF/HF radio

BoatMad

Damien360 wrote: »

I was wondering this also. What piece of tech is missing from SAR that they cannot do this also. Interference with heli electronics ? How did the casualty get called in on the ship/boat ? Did they use a sat phone ?

aircraft have not approved sat phones for use , as I understand it

Damien360

BoatMad wrote: »

aircraft have not approved sat phones for use , as I understand it

Far enough but it is available (albeit expensive) complete with wifi on commercial aviation with a hell of a lot more people on board. Same process for approval after testing. The cost benefit for SAR would be large.

TomOnBoard

BoatMad wrote: »

err, you clearly have missed a few points


Top cover is far better applied by using a fast jet, Irish SAR used to have access ti RAF Nimrod to provide top cover and excellent is was as the relative speed difference, often meant that the Nimrod was over the scene first


The sequence in this case, was the Aer Corps was contacted to provide top cover and it declined to do , ( since it effectively is a 9-5 operation and its helicopters are less capable then the S-92)

MMRC directed 118 to launch , since its was the actual SAR event and it would be stupid to delay this .


116 was at the other side of the country and Helis are comparatively slow

A better point might be in an era of world coverage via sat phones, why are we flying radio top cover missions at all.

You're not answering my question. All this is an attempt at deflecting from my question which is quite simple and has nothing to do with Nimrods, fast jets, Aer Corps or whatever else could have been brought to bear in either another day, a better world or in yesteryear.

Your point about the Aer Corps declining 'coz it's helicopters are less capable doesn't make sense as I believe only the cASAs were in the frame. So no, I don't believe I'm missing points at all; I'm finding it very difficult to relate your response to my question.

BoatMad

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Nope!

The AAIU report clearly shows that both Sligo and Dublin were contacted by Malin BEFORE a call as made to Cork.

correct , that would be the procedure, MMRC wants to respond as quickly as possible , so it would out the birds in the air asap. it can work out the issues on route and turn them back if need be

Dreamliner XWB

Just to apologise, my above post was insensitive and was removed.

TomOnBoard

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0422/869451-116/

Divers managed to get out this afternoon and evening. That seems a huge area of the seabed to have been surveyed(14 sq km according to RTE). They managed exploratory searches on the Southern side. Back out tomorrow to focus on the Western side.

Not sure what surveyed means in this context though??

J Mysterio

What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.

ED E

J Mysterio wrote: »

What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.

Its explained further back in thread but the short answer is:
A) Communications relaying: Helo A is on scene, helo B is higher to transmit "over the horizon" back to ground stations on the coast
Emergency recovery: If helo A has to ditch due to its rescue efforts then the crew can last long enough in immersion suits for B to pick them up.

Calina

J Mysterio wrote: »

What is 'top cover'? What is the purpose of it? I've tried to research it online but little joy.

As I understand it, in this case, the key requirement was to provide a communications relay between R118 which was out of radio contact at the time. I think if you read this thread, there is also a discussion on the correct term to be used because the Coast Guard and the AirCorps may use different terms. I'm open to correction on that.

Cloudio9

ED E wrote: »

Its explained further back in thread but the short answer is:
A) Communications relaying: Helo A is on scene, helo B is higher to transmit "over the horizon" back to ground stations on the coast
Emergency recovery: If helo A has to ditch due to its rescue efforts then the crew can last long enough in immersion suits for B to pick them up.

So on point it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.

Psychlops

All 4 SAR Bases are back operational again, EI-ICD was in Shannon for maintenance ( I presume ) the past few days but did operate as R115 yesterday, she is now back in Dublin, so as it stands we have:

EI-ICG, Sligo, R118
EI-ICA, Shannon, R115
EI-ICU, Waterford, R117
EI-ICD, Dublin, R116

faoiarvok

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So on point it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.

It's a bit of a balancing act. Though a fixed wing aircraft cannot pick up casualties in the event of an emergency, they can get to the scene quicker (usually ahead of the helicopter) and get in touch with the vessel to prepare them for the heli's arrival, and brief the heli crew on hazards etc. before their arrival.

Fixed wing can also stay on station longer. Where a vessel/casualty's location is not known, an airplane can locate them before the heli arrives, reducing the chance of the helicopter using up all its on-scene fuel in the search for a casualty, and in the event of ditching, can keep an eye on casualties until another heli can get out, and can also drop liferafts to survivors.

Prior to the CASAs coming in to service with the AC, this job was traditionally done by RAF Nimrods.

From what we know of the sequence of events leading to R116's tasking, it seems fixed wing remains the preferred form of top cover.

TomOnBoard

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0423/869693-search--island/


Really sad about this.

Coil Kilcrea

TomOnBoard wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0423/869693-search--island/


Really sad about this.

Yes, a tremendous effort by all concerned and a terrible pity they didn't find the lads. Like many, I had really hoped a thorough search in this area would have yielded a result.

Coil Kilcrea

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So on point it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.

Not necessarily so. To my knowledges most SAR services use fixed wing for Top Cover and have that capability within their own dedicated fleet.

faoiarvok

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

Not necessarily so. To my knowledges most SAR services use fixed wing for Top Cover and have that capability within their own dedicated fleet.

Having a dedicated fixed wing asset for Ireland seems a bit OTT to me. Would possibly be more sensible to have a service level agreement with the Air Corps or some other operator for availability of one of their aircraft.

According to Wikipedia HM Coastguard contract 3 fixed wing aircraft separate to their helicopter contract for various roles including pollution spraying and surveillance as well as SAR

TomOnBoard

faoiarvok wrote: »

Having a dedicated fixed wing asset for Ireland seems a bit OTT to me. Would possibly be more sensible to have a service level agreement with the Air Corps or some other operator for availability of one of their aircraft.

The SAR Framework, dated 2010, contains a high level SLA covering just what you say (see image) The framework itself is available at http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-national-maritime-search-and-rescue-sar-framework/sar-framework.pdf

smurfjed

To my knowledges most SAR services use fixed wing for Top Cover and have that capability within their own dedicated fleet

Does that apply to commercial operators ? If so, what aircraft types do they use?

ectoraige

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So on point it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.

Ideally fixed-wing top cover can drop life rafts to survivors and then stay on scene while organising rescue by other units.

Coil Kilcrea

smurfjed wrote: »

Does that apply to commercial operators ? If so, what aircraft types do they use?

No, I don't know of any commercial operators using fixed wing assets.

Coil Kilcrea

faoiarvok wrote: »

Having a dedicated fixed wing asset for Ireland seems a bit OTT to me. Would possibly be more sensible to have a service level agreement with the Air Corps or some other operator for availability of one of their aircraft.

According to Wikipedia HM Coastguard contract 3 fixed wing aircraft separate to their helicopter contract for various roles including pollution spraying and surveillance as well as SAR

Agreed. I think the Air Corps should be contracted to provide this service.

BoatMad

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

Agreed. I think the Air Corps should be contracted to provide this service.

They were asked in this case , they are not in a position to provide 24 hour 7 days a week Casa cover. its essentially a 9-5 operation at present

BoatMad

Cloudio9 wrote: »

So on point it would appear that a helicopter is best suited to the job despite what the self-appointed chairman of this thread was saying earlier.

The primary aspect of top cover is not to provide rescue, but to aid in a long distance SAR operation, often primarily to provide VHF communications relay ability.

A helicopter is not the goto asset for top cover, IN the case of Rescue 118 , the Aer Corp was asked to provide fixed wing top cover, but it was unable to comply.

Given that its impractical to stage to helicopters together , using a slow helicopter to try and catch up to a helicopter that has already left for the rescue is plainly very unsatisfactory, as was seen in the recent tragedy not a good idea. Rescue 118 was already on the way back by the time 116 arrived on the west coast

BoatMad

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Interesting story I'm sure, but totally irrelevant to the discussion. I'm now as confused as Tom on what you are trying to say.

That the decision to deploy assets in often not necessarily . as far as the general public, understandable by the the same public, the decisions are the responsibility of the MMRC and may be seen by many as " over the top "

Negative_G

Coil Kilcrea wrote: »

Agreed. I think the Air Corps should be contracted to provide this service.

How do you contract an organisation that is critically understaffed, under resourced and with only two aging airframes.

The primary function of the CASA's is to conduct maritime surveillance and fishery patrols. This role should not be compromised in order to facilitate providing top cover for a civilian company.

Either the state invests the funds to acquire the people and aircraft to do it properly in addition or let CHC provide it themselves.

Negative_G

BoatMad wrote: »

They were asked in this case , they are not in a position to provide 24 hour 7 days a week Casa cover. its essentially a 9-5 operation at present

The SLA states that they provide cover on a "as available" basis.

As you correctly say though, for the time being at least they are effectively 9-5 which of course is the reason they could not provide top cover in the first instance and R116 was subsequently tasked.

BoatMad

Negative_G wrote: »

How do you contract an organisation that is critically understaffed, under resourced and with only two aging airframes.

The primary function of the CASA's is to conduct maritime surveillance and fishery patrols. This role should not be compromised in order to facilitate providing top cover for a civilian company.

Either the state invests the funds to acquire the people and aircraft to do it properly in addition or let CHC provide it themselves.

I see no advantage in the state " owning " SAR assets , A private company of the size of CHC has far better resources/finances then the state and is not subject to political pressure on those finances

Negative_G

BoatMad wrote: »

I see no advantage in the state " owning " SAR assets , A private company of the size of CHC has far better resources/finances then the state and is not subject to political pressure on those finances

But that's the thing. The state doesn't just own a "SAR asset" it potentially owns a multi role aircraft which can be used in a multiude of roles in support of the State.

There is perfect sense in the state owning such assets but there needs to be sufficient numbers of aircraft and crew in order to provide a reliable service and to meet any SLA obligations it may have.

Quite simply, two aircraft, both of which have the highest airframe hours of any CASA 235's in the world, is not sufficient.

BoatMad

Negative_G wrote: »

But that's the thing. The state doesn't just own a "SAR asset" it potentially owns a multi role aircraft which can be used in a multiude of roles in support of the State.

There is perfect sense in the state owning such assets but there needs to be sufficient numbers of aircraft and crew in order to provide a reliable service and to meet any SLA obligations it may have.

Quite simply, two aircraft, both of which have the highest airframe hours of any CASA 235's in the world, is not sufficient.

Least I be criticised again for talking about a topic not directly involved , There is indeed a need for a serious discussion about just exactly do we need in a Air Wing in this country. I ( and others ) have argued that a low cost ( relative ) jet airwing, should be provided . Saab offered a very attractive deal some years ago

it should be remember that Ireland once had the top fighter of the day , The supermarine Spitfire , in its arsenal , now we have an operation that wouldn't befit a broken third world country.

but aside from that , SAR is not a military function and best of class experience , elsewhere suggests it needs dedicated equipment and dedicated personnel that are not expected to have any military role .

jmayo

Wintergirl wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/fg-queries-500m-helicopter-agreement-1.571230

I don't have the exact figures but we are tied into an expensive contract.

I never took much notice really until this accident happened, never thought what SAR involved but now know they never say NO to anything so if you have a cut finger on a trawler you can have SAR on speed dial.

I never thought either of how much its costing, does anyone do a cost benefit analysis, I mean leaving the emotions out of it and just looking how much does the cost of each call out represent.

Maybe they should have an accountant on call to do a cost benefit analysis before they leave. :rolleyes:

Wintergirl wrote: »

I mean the chances of you needing a helicopter to get you to hospital means you are probably going to die anyway or have a very poor quality of life if you live.

Shure why bother at all then, just let them die.
For someone so concerned about the healthcare of some you appear to not care much about the healthcare of others.

Wintergirl wrote: »

It is a free country isn't it, its ok to ask these questions, Im sure a lot of people think like me and we don't know who to put our questions too without sounding heartless.

I sincerely hope a lot of people don't think like you.
Otherwise fishermen, people living on islands, etc would probably be told they are on their own if something happens.

smurfjed wrote: »

Does that apply to commercial operators ? If so, what aircraft types do they use?

HM Coastguard have Reims-Cessna F406 Caravans and Cessna 404s.
Now some of them are primarily deemed pollution control aircraft, but AFAIK they are also used in SAR operations.

They used to be operated by Air Atlantique (initially as Atlantic Air Transport Ltd/Reconnaissance Ventures Ltd).

A?ronautique navale use Dassault Falcon 20/200 and Falcon 50 for Search and Rescue work.
And US coastguard at one stage used a version of Falcon 20 for search and rescue work.

Italian coastguard have Piaggio P.166, the weird looking P.180 and ATR42.

US coastguard have HC-130, EADS HC-144 (successor to Casa 235) and Alenia C-27J Spartans.

Storm 10

Rescue 115 into Galway from the Aran Islands with critical patient in the past hour, Air Corps 112 came in with another critical patient from the Roscommon direction, I guess Wintergirl would just leave them where they were and not use such expensive machines to save their lifes