BE strike [Read 1st post before posting]

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure they need the 18 million they claim given their obvious talent for spoofing.

What spoofing?

n97 mini

Voipjunkie wrote: »

How many times do you think Siptu and the NBRU have met Bus Eireann management ? Do you seriously think they are not all well acquainted with each other ?

There are 700 BE staff still at work. Do you think Willie has met them all?

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Right because BE management could never say here this is everyone that was there you have met them all before.

Would they need to include a DNA sample to verify that every body present is who they actually claim to be?

I mean what if that man has gone greyer than I remember? I mean his hair is different it just cant be him.

Graham

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Right because BE management could never say here this is everyone that was there you have met them all before.

If I stepped out of a room to consult a colleague/accountant/lawyer I wouldn't feel it immediately necessary to drag them into the room to introduce them on the off-chance the people I was negotiating with leapt to conclusions as to their identity.

n97 mini

Graham wrote: »

If I stepped out of a room to consult a colleague/accountant/lawyer I wouldn't feel it immediately necessary to drag them into the room to introduce them on the off-chance the people I was negotiating with leapt to conclusions as to there identity.

And also. If you're seriously bursting for a fart in a meeting room full of people, you're going to go outside the door to do it.

pjohnson

n97 mini wrote: »

And also. If you're seriously bursting for a fart in a meeting room full of people, you're going to go outside the door to do it.

You could just blame it on the phantom of meeting room #2 if need be.

trellheim

/serious mode on

If someone needed to consult with a trained examiner/forensic accountant/financial expert from Europe who knows this space( semistate bus transport) very well - and there might be only 3 or 4 on the continent :

"right if we give them this concession can we avoid going to the wall - and does that work for a 3 year period or until we can get tendering "

perhaps thats a figure who needed to be sat in the next room ?

/serious mode off

Sierra Oscar

sunbeam wrote: »

Any idea of how long the labour court hearing might last-hours, days, weeks?

I was really hoping I wouldn't have to miss a second hospital appointment because of this fiasco.

They're expecting a recommendation to be made by the Labour Court later this evening.

Sounds like the unions are looking for cover, they want the Labour Court to make a recommendation that they can bring to members instead of them doing so directly.

Graham

NBRU's O'Leary is now saying the National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport have a role to play in the LRC proceedings.

They don't appear to know who they want at the table.

pjohnson

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

They're expecting a recommendation to be made by the Labour Court later this evening.

Sounds like the unions are looking for cover, they want the Labour Court to make a recommendation that they can bring to members instead of them doing so directly.

And what would this mean in terms of actually making the drivers do thier job? Or can they just fob it off again?

Voipjunkie

n97 mini wrote: »

There are 700 BE staff still at work. Do you think Willie has met them all?

400 part time drivers who are the other 300 ?

Sierra Oscar

pjohnson wrote: »

And what would this mean in terms of actually making the drivers do thier job? Or can they just fob it off again?

The strike will be immediately suspended once the proposals are issued. I'd imagine they will be put to a ballot whether to accept them or not.

Voipjunkie

pjohnson wrote: »

What spoofing?

€500k a day spoofing

pjohnson

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The strike will be immediately suspended once the proposals are issued. I'd imagine they will be put to a ballot whether to accept them or not.

And when they dont its back to strike again?

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

€500k a day spoofing

That was explained earlier. There is a few spoofers in this thread but only a few are trying to avoid facts.

Sierra Oscar

pjohnson wrote: »

And when they dont its back to strike again?

Yes, but I'd be surprised if they reject the Labour Court recommendations. They either accept the proposals and get some limited 'wins' or else allow the company enter into administration where management will plough ahead with their restructuring plans eitherway.

pjohnson

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Yes, but I'd be surprised if they reject the Labour Court recommendations. They either accept the proposals and get some limited 'wins' or else allow the company enter into administration where management will plough ahead with their restructuring plans eitherway.

We can hope but they seem remarkably unintelligent/stubborn

Peppa Pig

Graham wrote: »

NBRU's O'Leary is now saying the National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport have a role to play in the LRC proceedings.

Hope they don't go creeping around in the dark

trellheim

National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport have a role to play in the LRC proceedings

Afterwards, to shake Union and Management's hands and say "well done for doing a deal"


Edit : I'm sure Unions are trying to figure out how to link this to water charges; it is the only thing I could think of

kiaronh

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Bus Eireann have 3 big costs

Wages 130m
Contractors 127m
Fuels and lubricants spare parts 41m

oddly you never accounted for contractors in your estimate, the contractors used on school services are paid by the Dept of Education so those they are still using are not affected by this strike, those they use for regular services are not being used so are not being paid.


Also the revenue includes the DSP payment, so you are counting it twice.


Bus eireann have 400 odd part time school bus drivers again the cost of those are paid by the Dept of Education so where you come up with €67,000 a day in wage costs you will need to explain.


Bus Eireann employs 2400 odd staff including the 400 part time drivers, so a little over 2000 full time staff that would include Drivers, Maintenance and Clerical, some here have suggested that 700 to 1000 are still working, well if all the non school drivers, all the Supervisors , all the Clerical all the maintenance are on strike does that mean Bus Eireann has 300 to 600 managers ?


So lets redo the maths

Average revenue €830,000
PS0 75,000
total 905,000

Less

Contractors €348,000
wages 358,000
fuel parts 112, 328
total 818,328


difference 87,000


Plus whatever management pay bill per day is.



Just to note, Bus Eireann would still be using fuel, parts and staff and contractors for school services, but the cost of those is included as revenue in the payment from the Department of Education, in 2015 BE reported that the School service broke even so if we ignore the revenue we can also ignore the cost associated with it including wages, parts fuel contractors etc.


http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1468318225-Annual-Report-2015.pdf

Reread pages 55 and 64 of that report.

You are missing about 40m in annual costs, and the management wages are included in the 130m per year.

Why do you assume that contractor costs drop for strike days? If these are annual contracts BE have to pay for them whether they are in use or not.

devnull

There's also a big additional one off cost that is going to have to be paid when the dispute ends....

And I'm not talking about redundancy.

L1011

Voipjunkie wrote: »

€500k a day spoofing

Your fag packet calculations that have school busses running without fuel and ignore all fixed costs are not strong enough to allow you to claim spoofing.

Peppa Pig

devnull wrote: »

There's also a big additional one off cost that is going to have to be paid when the dispute ends....
And I'm not talking about redundancy.

What is it?

thomasj

Peppa Pig wrote:

What is it?

Refunds?

Voipjunkie

L1011 wrote: »

Your fag packet calculations that have school busses running without fuel and ignore all fixed costs are not strong enough to allow you to claim spoofing.

Already explained but you choose to ignore it, the cost of school transport is covered by the Dept of education it is included in the revenue, if you include the revenue for school transport then you don't need to subtract the costs,

The fixed costs are the difference between contracted services, wages and fuel/parts and total costs,

Now no matter what way you shake it, they don't add up to 500k a day. This is the definition of fake news and RTE have repeated it verbatim as if it was fact.

devnull

Peppa Pig wrote: »

What is it?

Refunds for annual ticket and monthly ticket holders, previously banked revenue is going to have to be refunded.

n97 mini

devnull wrote: »

There's also a big additional one off cost that is going to have to be paid when the dispute ends....

And I'm not talking about redundancy.

A session?

Voipjunkie

kiaronh wrote: »

Reread pages 55 and 64 of that report.

You are missing about 40m in annual costs, and the management wages are included in the 130m per year.

Why do you assume that contractor costs drop for strike days? If these are annual contracts BE have to pay for them whether they are in use or not.

Because that is how they are contracted BE uses them when needed and gives them a fixed price depending on the mileage on the route they do.

Voipjunkie

devnull wrote: »

Refunds for annual ticket and monthly ticket holders, previously banked revenue is going to have to be refunded.

Again it is revenue against cost, BE haven't had to pay for supplying the service purchased and it is included in total revenue, so already accounted for in my calculation.

Peppa Pig

I've found the strange people that were creeping around the WRC
Shane Ross at a lip sync
Apparently he is not allowed to raise funds for a GAA club in his constituency when there are bus drivers on strike. Are ministers not allowed to do constituency work?

ThisRegard

Peppa Pig wrote: »

I've found the strange people that were creeping around the WRC
Shane Ross at a lip sync
Apparently he is not allowed to raise funds for a GAA club in his constituency when there are bus drivers on strike. Are ministers not allowed to do constituency work?

Saw that earlier but didn't click into it, but what a pathetic click bait bull**** headline from that usual rag.

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Already explained but you choose to ignore it, the cost of school transport is covered by the Dept of education it is included in the revenue, if you include the revenue for school transport then you don't need to subtract the costs,

The fixed costs are the difference between contracted services, wages and fuel/parts and total costs,

Now no matter what way you shake it, they don't add up to 500k a day. This is the definition of fake news and RTE have repeated it verbatim as if it was fact.

Wow you actually went full Donald without a hint of Parody....

kiaronh

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Because that is how they are contracted BE uses them when needed and gives them a fixed price depending on the mileage on the route they do.

Do you have a source for that? Because this seems to be the crux between the BE figures and yours.

Page 64 only says this covers school contractors, bus hireage and contract service maintenance.

bk

paulboland wrote: »

All of them you list to travel to Dublin
Not everyone works in Dublin or works in Dublin Airport

Hold on there, you specifically claimed that no private operators operated off peak.

I then listed dozens of private services that run 24/7 or close to it, which represent hundreds of departures and coaches per day.

So in other words you were completely wrong, have been proven to be so and now you are trying to move the goal posts!

Also I just worked my way through every BE Expressway and Commuter timetable and the results were interesting.

BE don't operate a single 24/7 service!

The best BE Expressway service has a 6 hours gap overnight. BE Expressway services are the most equivalent to the private operators routes, the private operators operate many 24/7 or routes with less then a 4 hour gap over night, so all much better then BE Expressway.

In terms of PSO routes, again BE operate no 24/7 service or even close to it. The best route is the 109 that operates from 5:30 to 23:30 weekdays (note a 6 hour gap) with an extra night rider service at 12:30 and 3:30 on Friday and Saturday nights.

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1425902151-109.pdf

And the 101, operates between 6:40 and 23:00 weekdays (more then 7 hour gap), with a 12:30 and 3:30 nightrider departure on Saturdays and Sundays.

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1425901999-101.pdf

The 103 is the next best, operating between 6:02 and 00:32 (again note a 6 hour gap):

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1470225086-103.pdf

Beyond those things fall way off and are barely off peak, never mind overnight (for instance no buses between Cork and Dublin after 6pm).

If you don't believe me, I can link you to BE timetables all day.

I also find it ironic that in your above posts you say that all the late night private buses operate to Dublin, when as you can see from above the only BE buses that operate late also only operate to Dublin!

So in summary:
- BE operate NO 24/7 services, unlike private operators.
- BE Expressway operate NO overnight services, unlike private operators on similar routes.
- The few overnight (night rider) PSO services BE do operate all go to Dublin.

It is really annoying seeing people like you claim that private operators don't run 24/7 type services, when it is really the private operators who have innovated and first introduced 24/7 type services from the various cities. BE is way behind on this.

paulboland wrote: »

Private bus operator don't even cover any of the bus route where I live

Because it is a PSO route and private companies are banned from operating on it. The NTA won't issue a license for your route, even if they want too (and yes they have requested such licenses).

I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand.

L1011

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Already explained but you choose to ignore it, the cost of school transport is covered by the Dept of education it is included in the revenue, if you include the revenue for school transport then you don't need to subtract the costs,

The fixed costs are the difference between contracted services, wages and fuel/parts and total costs,

Now no matter what way you shake it, they don't add up to 500k a day. This is the definition of fake news and RTE have repeated it verbatim as if it was fact.

You included the revenue but claimed all the costs were saved. Not all school buses are contracted. You have buses running on thin air. You have ignored entire swathes of costs from the report.

Your figures are useless to put it mildly.

L1011

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Again it is revenue against cost, BE haven't had to pay for supplying the service purchased and it is included in total revenue, so already accounted for in my calculation.

There will be a higher refund than saving on costs as most season ticket holders travel 5 days but will be refunded for 7. Again, your back of a fag packet calculations are useless

Voipjunkie

L1011 wrote: »

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Already explained but you choose to ignore it, the cost of school transport is covered by the Dept of education it is included in the revenue, if you include the revenue for school transport then you don't need to subtract the costs,

The fixed costs are the difference between contracted services, wages and fuel/parts and total costs,

Now no matter what way you shake it, they don't add up to 500k a day. This is the definition of fake news and RTE have repeated it verbatim as if it was fact.

You included the revenue but claimed all the costs were saved. Not all school buses are contracted. You have buses running on thin air. You have ignored entire swathes of costs from the report.

Your figures are useless to put it mildly.

Ok I'll say it again the Dept of education pay for the entire cost of providing the school transport service, that includes the contracted as well as the in house, the fuel, tyres, maintenance of buses etc etc etc. They are still paying for it so there is no loss.

trellheim

Where is Ingrid Miley, they should be out for tea and biccies soon

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Ok I'll say it again the Dept of education pay for the entire cost of providing the school transport service, that includes the contracted as well as the in house, the fuel, tyres, maintenance of buses etc etc etc. They are still paying for it so there is no loss.

Just because you keep saying it again doesnt make it true...........

L1011

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Ok I'll say it again the Dept of education pay for the entire cost of providing the school transport service, that includes the contracted as well as the in house, the fuel, tyres, maintenance of buses etc etc etc. They are still paying for it so there is no loss.

You can say it as many times as you want, but you're still making a massive failure of comprehension.

You have removed the ENTIRE fuel/oil/maintenance costs and are claiming the ENTIRE amount as "savings".

If you can't understand how you've ballsed that up, who knows what other clangers you've got in those figures. Your figures are useless.

john boye

bk wrote: »

Hold on there, you specifically claimed that no private operators operated off peak.

I then listed dozens of private services that run 24/7 or close to it, which represent hundreds of departures and coaches per day.

So in other words you were completely wrong, have been proven to be so and now you are trying to move the goal posts!

Also I just worked my way through every BE Expressway and Commuter timetable and the results were interesting.

BE don't operate a single 24/7 service!

The best BE Expressway service has a 6 hours gap overnight. BE Expressway services are the most equivalent to the private operators routes, the private operators operate many 24/7 or routes with less then a 4 hour gap over night, so all much better then BE Expressway.

In terms of PSO routes, again BE operate no 24/7 service or even close to it. The best route is the 109 that operates from 5:30 to 23:30 weekdays (note a 6 hour gap) with an extra night rider service at 12:30 and 3:30 on Friday and Saturday nights.

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1425902151-109.pdf

And the 101, operates between 6:40 and 23:00 weekdays (more then 7 hour gap), with a 12:30 and 3:30 nightrider departure on Saturdays and Sundays.

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1425901999-101.pdf

The 103 is the next best, operating between 6:02 and 00:32 (again note a 6 hour gap):

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1470225086-103.pdf

Beyond those things fall way off and are barely off peak, never mind overnight (for instance no buses between Cork and Dublin after 6pm).

If you don't believe me, I can link you to BE timetables all day.

I also find it ironic that in your above posts you say that all the late night private buses operate to Dublin, when as you can see from above the only BE buses that operate late also only operate to Dublin!

So in summary:
- BE operate NO 24/7 services, unlike private operators.
- BE Expressway operate NO overnight services, unlike private operators on similar routes.
- The few overnight (night rider) PSO services BE do operate all go to Dublin.

It is really annoying seeing people like you claim that private operators don't run 24/7 type services, when it is really the private operators who have innovated and first introduced 24/7 type services from the various cities. BE is way behind on this.



Because it is a PSO route and private companies are banned from operating on it. The NTA won't issue a license for your route, even if they want too (and yes they have requested such licenses).

I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand.

I think he's just posting random nonsense at this point.

Voipjunkie

L1011 wrote: »

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Again it is revenue against cost, BE haven't had to pay for supplying the service purchased and it is included in total revenue, so already accounted for in my calculation.

There will be a higher refund than saving on costs as most season ticket holders travel 5 days but will be refunded for 7. Again, your back of a fag packet calculations are useless

Total revenue is total revenue, you average by dividing the total revenue by 365 to get an average daily revenue, included in that revenue is Cash, collected, weekly, monthly tickets, leapcard, PSO etc

It is not an exact figure for each day as some days would be busier than others but it is an average so it is as close as we can get with access to BE complete daily accounts

You would be double counting it by suggesting that they lost the revenue and they have to refund it. Lost revenue is only counted once.

Neon_Lights

Just seen on indeed that bus Eireann are advertising bus driver positions hahaha

pjohnson

Neon_Lights wrote: »

Just seen on indeed that bus Eireann are advertising bus driver positions hahaha

I hope its for non union drivers who will actually drive.

Voipjunkie

L1011 wrote: »

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Ok I'll say it again the Dept of education pay for the entire cost of providing the school transport service, that includes the contracted as well as the in house, the fuel, tyres, maintenance of buses etc etc etc. They are still paying for it so there is no loss.

You can say it as many times as you want, but you're still making a massive failure of comprehension.

You have removed the ENTIRE fuel/oil/maintenance costs and are claiming the ENTIRE amount as "savings".

If you can't understand how you've ballsed that up, who knows what other clangers you've got in those figures. Your figures are useless.

But not removed the revenue from dept of education who pays for the fuel, maintenance, oil and wages as part of their contract with BE.

You want to count the revenue as lost but also count the costs incurred in providing the service.

Sit down and think about it you may comprehend your mistake.

pjohnson

Well no progress today anyway. O'Leary probably wanted a full DNA profile of someone he saw near the court. The Unions just wont let it end.

L1011

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Total revenue is total revenue, you average by dividing the total revenue by 365 to get an average daily revenue, included in that revenue is Cash, collected, weekly, monthly tickets, leapcard, PSO etc

It is not an exact figure for each day as some days would be busier than others but it is an average so it is as close as we can get with access to BE complete daily accounts

You would be double counting it by suggesting that they lost the revenue and they have to refund it. Lost revenue is only counted once.

If revenue was the sole part of the calculation, sure. It isn't.

Its also something they have to actually have cash for. Also, as the refunds are going to be quite substantial and were paid from pre-tax income, Revenue are going to be interested in BE repaying them the foregone PAYE/PRSI/USC.

You are spoofing and bumbling your way through sets of figures you don't understand.

Voipjunkie wrote: »

But not removed the revenue from dept of education who pays for the fuel, maintenance, oil and wages as part of their contract with BE.

You want to count the revenue as lost but also count the costs incurred in providing the service.

Sit down and think about it you may comprehend your mistake.

You are counting the revenue as present
You are counting the costs as gone

Your figures are nonsensical as a result

You don't know what you're doing

ThisRegard

trellheim wrote: »

Where is Ingrid Miley, they should be out for tea and biccies soon

Adjourned until tomorrow.

pjohnson

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Sit down and think about it you may comprehend your mistake.

He is not making a mistake.

GM228

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Bus Eireann have 3 big costs

Wages 130m
Contractors 127m
Fuels and lubricants spare parts 41m

oddly you never accounted for contractors in your estimate, the contractors used on school services are paid by the Dept of Education so those they are still using are not affected by this strike, those they use for regular services are not being used so are not being paid.


Also the revenue includes the DSP payment, so you are counting it twice.


Bus eireann have 400 odd part time school bus drivers again the cost of those are paid by the Dept of Education so where you come up with €67,000 a day in wage costs you will need to explain.


Bus Eireann employs 2400 odd staff including the 400 part time drivers, so a little over 2000 full time staff that would include Drivers, Maintenance and Clerical, some here have suggested that 700 to 1000 are still working, well if all the non school drivers, all the Supervisors , all the Clerical all the maintenance are on strike does that mean Bus Eireann has 300 to 600 managers ?


So lets redo the maths

Average revenue €830,000
PS0 75,000
total 905,000

Less

Contractors €348,000
wages 358,000
fuel parts 112, 328
total 818,328


difference 87,000


Plus whatever management pay bill per day is.



Just to note, Bus Eireann would still be using fuel, parts and staff and contractors for school services, but the cost of those is included as revenue in the payment from the Department of Education, in 2015 BE reported that the School service broke even so if we ignore the revenue we can also ignore the cost associated with it including wages, parts fuel contractors etc.


http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1468318225-Annual-Report-2015.pdf

Why deduct the contractor costs?

BE are re-imbursed by the Dept of Education and Skill and got €11.26m revenue in 2015 from the scheme. The revenue includes just €11.26m, not the €127m cost of the scheme.

Also BE pay the school bus drivers, not the Dept, the Dept reimburse BE for those costs as part of the contractors debts so the debt is cancled out.