A Few (probably silly) questions from a home security beginner

sphinxicus

Hi All.

I've been reading around this Home Security Systems section of the forum for what feels like weeks now, trying to research/come to a decision as to what i want in my first ever house alarm and i think I'm at the point now where I can start asking questions (even if they will probably be stupid questions to most on here) so that when i get some more quotes I'm a little better educated... Please be patient with me as I'm still finding my way in this area.

Ok, so to the questions:

Zones - Is a zone classed as a Floor (ground floor/1st floor), as a room, a group of windows or just a single opening? Or is it a case of its whatever you want it to be when the system is setup?

The reason i ask is that when I'm looking at control panels, i see specifications that state, "this box has 8 on-board zones with a maximum of 32 hardwired zones" etc. and I'm not sure how to relate that to the number of openings i wish to cover. I have about 50 openings (including individual windows, velux's and doors) alone so right now, I'm assuming that a zone is a group/cluster of windows that can be labelled as one area? I.e. A bay window which has 4 windows that physically open within the group of windows, would be classed as 1 zone?


Inertia detectors with magnetic contacts - Taking the above bay window as an example. (Sorry I cant upload pictures yet as my post count is too low so i will do my best to explain). If you can imagine 6 panes of glass arranged in a 3 x 2 grid, 3 small panes of glass on the top row and 3 panes of bigger glass on the bottom row. The top left and top right panes of glass open and the bottom left and right panes of glass open. Would you only need to install one inertia detector for the whole series of windows and then a magnetic contact at each window that opens or would the one inertia sensor not be sensitive enough for the whole window? I don't want to have to pay out for additional inertia sensors if i don't need them.
Also, do people recommend that these not be put on the front door? I'm just thinking if an eager Phonewatch salesman is knocking on the door when im out, I wouldn't want the alarm to go off :P

I have a few more questions to come, but any answers to the above may change what they are or answer them too, so I will hold off writing war and peace for now pending any response i get.

Thanks for reading

altor

Yes a zone in a panel is used to identify an area, a device or a group of devices.

You would not want many devices on one zone altho it will work.

Depending on size would be the amount of inertias used on a window

KoolKid

sphinxicus wrote: »

Zones - Is a zone classed as a Floor (ground floor/1st floor), as a room, a group of windows or just a single opening? Or is it a case of its whatever you want it to be when the system is setup?

It depends on the system you use and the setup. On a wired system zones could break down by rooms or a couple of rooms depending on for the wiring is run and the capacity of the cable (4 core , 6 core, 8 core etc)
On a wireless system every device can be one or 2 separate zones.

sphinxicus wrote: »

The reason i ask is that when I'm looking at control panels, i see specifications that state, "this box has 8 on-board zones with a maximum of 32 hardwired zones" etc. and I'm not sure how to relate that to the number of openings i wish to cover. I have about 50 openings (including individual windows, velux's and doors) alone so right now, I'm assuming that a zone is a group/cluster of windows that can be labelled as one area? I.e. A bay window which has 4 windows that physically open within the group of windows, would be classed as 1 zone?

You are referring there to hardwired zones . Is your property wired for an alarm. 50 openings is a lot to cover either way. Bearing in mind entry doors, PiRs & Panic buttons will also be separate zones, if this is a wired property I'd be looking at 24 at least.

sphinxicus wrote: »

Inertia detectors with magnetic contacts - Taking the above bay window as an example. (Sorry I cant upload pictures yet as my post count is too low so i will do my best to explain). If you can imagine 6 panes of glass arranged in a 3 x 2 grid, 3 small panes of glass on the top row and 3 panes of bigger glass on the bottom row. The top left and top right panes of glass open and the bottom left and right panes of glass open. Would you only need to install one inertia detector for the whole series of windows and then a magnetic contact at each window that opens or would the one inertia sensor not be sensitive enough for the whole window? I don't want to have to pay out for additional inertia sensors if i don't need them.
Also, do people recommend that these not be put on the front door? I'm just thinking if an eager Phonewatch salesman is knocking on the door when im out, I wouldn't want the alarm to go off :P

On the bay window scenario I would be using 2 or 3 Inertias.
For the front door its normally a contact, but as this can be configured separately you could have an inertia and adjust it if you are getting false alarms from knocking.

sphinxicus wrote: »

I have a few more questions to come, but any answers to the above may change what they are or answer them too, so I will hold off writing war and peace for now pending any response i get.

Thanks for reading

No problem feel free to ask at will. It can only help you.From what you are saying it would probably be best to get a good installer out to survey the property & go through all the questions & concerns with you.

sphinxicus

Thanks Altor and KoolKid for your quick responses.

KoolKid wrote:

It depends on the system you use and the setup. On a wired system zones could break down by rooms or a couple of rooms depending on for the wiring is run and the capacity of the cable (4 core , 6 core, 8 core etc)

After reading and re-reading, I think I'd like to go for the SPC4320 control panel. That mentioned 8 onboard zones with a max of 32 hardwired zones, so i guess i would have to get an "expander board" (for want of a better word) to accommodate all the zones i require?

KoolKid wrote:

Is your property wired for an alarm. 50 openings is a lot to cover either way. Bearing in mind entry doors, PiRs & Panic buttons will also be separate zones, if this is a wired property I'd be looking at 24 at least.

The house is wired with 6 core to every door/window/velux. Some rooms have 2 or 3 windows in them so i guess zoning by room would be ok, or maybe splitting the larger rooms into 2 zones? (Living room1, Living room2, hall, kitchen etc...) With that zoning standard i would need about 20 zones taking into account rooms/hall/landing/doors and a panic button so that gets my under 32 with room to spare for some wireless PiR's later

The largest windows as about 2.5 meters wide and they have two drops of 6 core with one of the drops looped so i would guess that it is the same cable.

Hadn't thought about panic buttons or PiR's to be honest. Was just thinking of perimeter protection first but i suppose i could add some wireless PiR's later if we wish. Panic button is a good idea though! One in the bedroom would be handy if they do wireless ones *more research needed*

KoolKid wrote:

On the bay window scenario I would be using 2 or 3 Inertias.

So going on the above scenario, bay window with two 6 core drops, 6 panes of glass but only 4 window openings. I take it that they could install two inertias close to the windows that open and then run an external contact to the adjacent window which is then wired back into the inertia sensor? Sorry i dont know what the proper name for this would be. The reason i ask is the inertias look much bigger than a slimline magnetic open/close sensor so would rather not have 4 of those where i can have two plus two slimline magnetic sensors.

KoolKid wrote:

From what you are saying it would probably be best to get a good installer out to survey the property & go through all the questions & concerns with you.

Oh i definitely wont be installing this myself! I just like to be as prepared as possible before getting someone out to look at it so im not blinded by jargon and also have a better idea of exactly what i want and what is possible before being told what i want. I have had a few quotes provided to me solely over email so far and they have been very vague so i thought it was time to educate myself so i can at the very least ask some decent questions when i start getting quotes again.

KoolKid

Glad to see you are doing things right. There are way to many lads out there who only want you to install what they want.
From all you are saying the SPC 4320 would be a good choice. You could also add wireless PiRs and panic buttons like you were suggesting.
Remember the wireless devices are included in your zone total. So if you feel the numbers may be tight look at the SPC 5320. This could allow you to to add extra expanders if need be.
On the windows you can use a combined unit we call an inertia contact (commonly referred to as an MC) With this you can place the unit beside the opening and the magnet on the opening.

sphinxicus

good news on the wireless panic buttons.

I guess i have my shopping list now.
- SPC 4320 Panel with zone expander board (assuming it provides enough zones)
- SPCK521.100-N Keypad
- Pyronix Delta Bell Plus or Delta Bell-X depending on if the "superior lighting" has a superior cost...
- Door and window sensors. I am unsure as to which make/model to go for here so may default to whatever is suggested in quotes i get
- Wireless panic button (not sure on make/model yet)

Sorry, some more questions...

Does the keypad listed above need some form of mains power routing to its location or can it draw enough power from one of the 6 core cables?

There is a blanking plate on the wall near the front door. I took it off and there is some 6 core cable coiled up behind it in a socket backbox. There is no end to it. It comes into the backbox, loops round a bit and then leaves the other side of the box. Im assuming this is a run from where the control panel will be to one of the windows. I'm crossing my fingers here hoping that;
a) the keypad can take power direct from the control panel
b) there will be enough cores on that so that a couple can be robbed from the loop to power the panel and still leave enough for the window sensors


Do i need an internal sounder/bell?

Thinking back many moons ago to an old alarm system my parents had. There was a bell within the control panel which went off as well as the external bell box.

Looking at the SPC control panel there was no mention of a speaker and to be honest, the box will be well hidden away for it to be of any use.

Im guessing there is a speaker on the keypad to acknowledge commands and tell you that its set etc but is it sound in the event of an alarm and is it loud enough? If not could you recommend an internal sounder?

Thanks again

KoolKid

sphinxicus wrote: »

good news on the wireless panic buttons.

I guess i have my shopping list now.
- SPC 4320 Panel with zone expander board (assuming it provides enough zones)
- SPCK521.100-N Keypad
- Pyronix Delta Bell Plus or Delta Bell-X depending on if the "superior lighting" has a superior cost...

Nice panel with a lovely keypad.The delta bell light box is a little dearer but well worth it.

sphinxicus wrote: »

- Door and window sensors. I am unsure as to which make/model to go for here so may default to whatever is suggested in quotes i get

My Recommendation would be Aritech /UTC GS613

sphinxicus wrote: »

- Wireless panic button (not sure on make/model yet)

These would have to be SIWay (Remember to add wireless receiver & external panel to the SPC4320)
The combined PA/Keyfob is nice

sphinxicus wrote: »

Does the keypad listed above need some form of mains power routing to its location or can it draw enough power from one of the 6 core cables?

The keypad is powered by 12vdc from the control panel via the 6 core cable,only 4 cores are used so you can loop to windows/front door if need be.

sphinxicus wrote: »

Do i need an internal sounder/bell?

Thinking back many moons ago to an old alarm system my parents had. There was a bell within the control panel which went off as well as the external bell box.

Yes a separate internal bell is required.
UTC AS270 would be my preference.

altor

sphinxicus wrote: »

Does the keypad listed above need some form of mains power routing to its location or can it draw enough power from one of the 6 core cables?

Keypads power and data connection would be done over this cable to the control panel.

sphinxicus wrote: »

There is a blanking plate on the wall near the front door. I took it off and there is some 6 core cable coiled up behind it in a socket backbox. There is no end to it. It comes into the backbox, loops round a bit and then leaves the other side of the box. Im assuming this is a run from where the control panel will be to one of the windows. I'm crossing my fingers here hoping that;
a) the keypad can take power direct from the control panel
b) there will be enough cores on that so that a couple can be robbed from the loop to power the panel and still leave enough for the window sensors

Are you sure it not just a straight feed to the keypad from the location of the other cables?
Its not ideal but can be done if its looped to windows.

sphinxicus wrote: »

Do i need an internal sounder/bell?

Thinking back many moons ago to an old alarm system my parents had. There was a bell within the control panel which went off as well as the external bell box.

Looking at the SPC control panel there was no mention of a speaker and to be honest, the box will be well hidden away for it to be of any use.

Im guessing there is a speaker on the keypad to acknowledge commands and tell you that its set etc but is it sound in the event of an alarm and is it loud enough? If not could you recommend an internal sounder?

Thanks again

You will need to get a cable from the location of the control panel to where you want the internal bell installed.

Keypad will indicate arming and disarming.

sphinxicus

altor wrote: »

Keypads power and data connection would be done over this cable to the control panel.

Great that's good to know thanks!

altor wrote: »

Are you sure it not just a straight feed to the keypad from the location of the other cables?
Its not ideal but can be done if its looped to windows.

I'm not 100% sure till i can find by cable tone generator thats been packed away somewhere far to safe for my liking. I took te blanking plate off again to have another look and i can see one end of the cable leaving the backbox and going in the direction of the window in the next room (which is the opposite direction to where they all terminate). I cant see where the other end goes but can only assume its back to "node0"

altor wrote: »

You will need to get a cable from the location of the control panel to where you want the internal bell installed.

Very good point and one i had totally overlooked! Had a look around the house and it looks like there is no cable run for an internal sounder :mad:

Will have to figure out best way to do this in prep for install time... joy

altor

That looks like the one cable in the back box so it would be a direct feed to the rest of the cables.
You could also come off the spare cores and install the sounder in the hall.
If you can get a cable up the back of the wall there will be no cable showing either.

sphinxicus

altor wrote: »

That looks like the one cable in the back box so it would be a direct feed to the rest of the cables.
You could also come off the spare cores and install the sounder in the hall.

Thats my hope anyway. I tried pulling both ends to see if it terminated there but the end that drops out of the bottom of the backbox wasnt forthcoming so i'll hold fire until ive confirmed where it routes before i give it a REAL tug. If it goes direct to the rest of the cables only and not through to the other window then its win win as you say, i will have spare cores to wire up the internal sounder

altor wrote: »

If you can get a cable up the back of the wall there will be no cable showing either.

A man after my own heart. That was my thought exactly, keep the cables hidden where possible - shame it cant be done on the windows - I've seen some nasty examples in my neighbours house of drilling the PVC window frame to route the cable to the sensor. Not sure which is worse, cable on show or a couple of roughly drilled holes in the frames.

altor

You will find out once you start belling out the cables either way.
Hopefully it is a direct cable.

I've seen some rough jobs in my time also.
The only thing most dont realize when drilling the frames is they are drilling the drainage channel.
Just something to be aware of if doing the same.

sphinxicus

altor wrote: »

The only thing most dont realize when drilling the frames is they are drilling the drainage channel.

I didnt even think of that! I was more bothered about how shoddy it looked. Something to be aware of for sure!


Right, i think i have my list of parts required sorted (or thereabouts):

• Control Panel SPC4320.220-L1 - SPC control panel, 8-32 zones, Ethernet, G2 housing with metal base and plastic cover
• Expander board - 8 In / 2 Out - SPCE652.000 (will need two of these to bring my zone count up to scratch)
• Keypad - SPCK521.100-N - Compact Keypad with graphical display, card reader and audio
• IB44-EM Keyring tag - for guests or for 2 factor disarming if im feeling particularly anal
• Internal sounder - (Potentially UTC AS270)
• External bell box - Pyronix Delta Bell (plus or X)
• Inertia door/window sensors for downstairs (Potentially GS613)
  Normal magnetic sensors for upstairs (if there is a decent saving to be had on price vs inertia sensors).
• Wireless Module - SPCW111.000 - SiWay RF-Module for panel with plastic housing / cover - To allow me to add wireless PiR's and wireless panic button
• Panic button (Wireless) - IRCW6-11 - Remote Control - for panic button

Future Purchase

• SPCN310.000 - GSM/GPRS communication module with antenna - to have 2nd pathway available in the event the broadband goes down

Some more questions:

1. Do the zone expander boards fit inside the control panel case, attached like a daughter board, or is there a separate empty case i would need to get to house two of those in? I can only find them with 8 zones.
2. Does the above remote work as a fully functioning option of full arm/disarm/part set as can be done via the keypad?
3. Does the above list look complete enough and compatible with each other?

If the above list looks good then i guess its time to start looking for someone in my area on the PSA website who doesnt mind being told what i would like them to install :P





Thanks so much Altor and KoolKid for your advice so far (in this thread and others that i've read). Has really helped get me up to scratch with what i want/should be looking for!

KoolKid

There is a 4320 K1 kit with the 521 keypad included. That will be a bit cheaper.
The expanders go outside the panel, so plan your zones carefully and route cables accordingly.
You will need the wireless receiver with the external aeriel as there is no plastic lid option on the 4320.
The remote keyfob will allow full set part set unset and panic activating.

altor

sphinxicus wrote: »

I didnt even think of that! I was more bothered about how shoddy it looked. Something to be aware of for sure!

Not many do when drilling holes in window frames.
In some places wired and wire free devices can be used to combat the shoddy look.

sphinxicus

well i traced the wire behind the blanking plate and it did terminate in that area. If i had bothered to look closer i would have noticed that the cable to the window was only 4 core vs the 6 core that's in there. Oh well, at least i found my cable tester/tone generator :P

Should be able to get hold of some more alarm wire now and fish a short run of that straight up to near the ceiling so that the installer can connect an internal sounder to one end and bridge the other end to the keypad which in turn will be connected back to the control panel... at least that's the theory in my head.

Better start ringing some installers now and find out if they will install what i would like - otherwise i fear i will end up installing it myself which i would really rather not do!

KoolKid

That will work perfectly for your internal. Shop around for installers. Most good installers would be well able to install this system for you.

altor

sphinxicus wrote: »

well i traced the wire behind the blanking plate and it did terminate in that area. If i had bothered to look closer i would have noticed that the cable to the window was only 4 core vs the 6 core that's in there. Oh well, at least i found my cable tester/tone generator :P

Should be able to get hold of some more alarm wire now and fish a short run of that straight up to near the ceiling so that the installer can connect an internal sounder to one end and bridge the other end to the keypad which in turn will be connected back to the control panel... at least that's the theory in my head.

Better start ringing some installers now and find out if they will install what i would like - otherwise i fear i will end up installing it myself which i would really rather not do!

Brilliant, that sorts that

Here is a link to the PSA website, you can look by area to so hopefully you will find someone local.