Mar 2017 proposal: park & ride to be charged. Jun 2017 WCC vote no charge

jobless

http://www.greystonesguide.ie/park-ride-for-e2-anyone/

looks like the council are going to charge people for the park and ride this year....
so essentially taking the incentive away from people to use public transport and add to the already congested traffic on the n11.... so short sighted


edited thread title as update

drake70

With suggested changes in the draft bill such as charging €2 daily for the traditionally free Park & Ride down at the South Beach being considered

Not written in stone. This relates to the draft parking bye-laws 2017 and will be open to public consultation.

Hack12

Can guarantee they will pass it. Only thing they know is to tax work. Totally ridiculous, they should start first by standing up for people of Greystones who use the DART who are ripped off compared to the rest of the line first

2011

drake70 wrote: »

Not written in stone. This relates to the draft parking bye-laws 2017 and will be open to public consultation.

This is ireland, it will happen and in a year or two the price will double, the triple.
Suck it up....:mad:

jobless

for what its worth here is the link to submit objections

http://www.wicklow.ie/ParkingByeLaws

CramCycle

jobless wrote: »

for what its worth here is the link to submit objections

http://www.wicklow.ie/ParkingByeLaws

Max character in the description field is tiny, barely enough space for a sentence after getting the page number in.

FirstIn

More nails in the coffin for this once fantastic village.

I'm just glad I lived here for the best of it. My memories live on. I was fortunate.

It's downhill all the way now.

Annasopra

CramCycle wrote: »

Max character in the description field is tiny, barely enough space for a sentence after getting the page number in.

As per the original link there are 2 more ways to submit your views

The submissions should be made in writing, marked Wicklow County Council – Draft Parking Bye-Laws 2017, and addressed to Helena Dennehy, Senior Executive Officer, Wicklow County Council, County Buildings Wicklow. You can also submit your objections via email parkingbyelaws@wicklowcoco.ie

Annasopra

Hack12 wrote: »

Can guarantee they will pass it. Only thing they know is to tax work. Totally ridiculous, they should start first by standing up for people of Greystones who use the DART who are ripped off compared to the rest of the line first

Whats with the cynical defeatist attitude? If enough people actually used the consultation to lodge their objections then it may not go through.

CramCycle

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

As per the original link there are 2 more ways to submit your views

The submissions should be made in writing, marked Wicklow County Council – Draft Parking Bye-Laws 2017, and addressed to Helena Dennehy, Senior Executive Officer, Wicklow County Council, County Buildings Wicklow. You can also submit your objections via email parkingbyelaws@wicklowcoco.ie

I know, just a silly oversight on their part but one that should not happen. Already emailed them.

recedite

Park and Ride is always full now during the day, with cars usually parked illegally along the access roads too, outside the actual parking bays.

So I can see why they thinking of introducing the charge. Its opportunistic.

But there is more council land wasted across the road, behind the Script building. And there is also a building beside the playground with its own little car park, between the Park and Ride and the playground. It used to be for Greystones Town Council, which was abolished. The parking meter guys and some council workers seem to use it for having their tea breaks in nowadays.

So there's actually plenty of space around there. If WCC had some real vision, they would build a multi-storey car park there, with added retail and/or office space which could bring in a substantial rental income.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

And there is also a building beside the playground with its own little car park, between the Park and Ride and the playground. It used to be for Greystones Town Council, which was abolished. The parking meter guys and some council workers seem to use it for having their tea breaks in nowadays.

Yes but it was replaced by Greysones Municipal District Council and it still effectively exists so the building is still used by the Council. Council employees work there. It's not some just sort of drop in tea station for council employees. They hold monthly meetings of Greystones Muncipal District there. So not "abolished" but it changed it's structure.

http://www.wicklow.ie/greystones-municipal-district-minutes-agendas

recedite

The Town Concil was abolished, and all its powers and responsibilities were transferred to WCC. "Greystones Municipal District Council" is merely a sub-comitttee of that, comprising the Greystones based councillors of WCC, but has no power to make decisions independent of WCC. Retaining a town centre building with its own car park, just for once a month meetings of these is not a good use of land or resources. They have a council chamber in Wicklow town which could be used for meetings.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

The Town Concil was abolished, and all its powers and responsibilities were transferred to WCC. "Greystones Municipal District Council" is merely a sub-comitttee of that, comprising the Greystones based councillors of WCC, but has no power to make decisions independent of WCC. Retaining a town centre building with its own car park, just for once a month meetings of these is not a good use of land or resources. They have a council chamber in Wicklow town which could be used for meetings.

Its not just used for council meetings at all. There are council workers based there such as the area administrator and area engineer. They run the local council operations for Greystones, Delgany, Kilcoole and Newcastle from it. That makes complete sense. If the engineer or administrator were based in Wicklow Town and had to travel up and down between Wicklow and Greystone, Kilcoole, Newcastle you would end paying ridiculous travel expenses. You would also have to pay travel expenses to councillors who wish to meet with these officials. This would be a huge waste of financial resources.

2011

recedite wrote: »

Park and Ride is always full now during the day, with cars usually parked illegally along the access roads too, outside the actual parking bays.

So I can see why they thinking of introducing the charge.

I don't think that illegal parking should be addressed by introducing parking fees.

recedite

2011 wrote: »

I don't think that illegal parking should be addressed by introducing parking fees.

I agree, clamping or parking tickets would sort it out.

But my point is, whenever something is oversubscribed, the price tends to go up, and then demand eases off again. That's how things work in a capitalist world.

eleMental

since christmas there were big yellow signs put up all over the carpark saying that cars parked illegally or not in designated bays would be clamped. the issue of people parking up on the footpaths has gotten significantly better since then (at least prior to 08:30 in the mornings anyway)

instead of suggesting they build a multi storey carpark which (being realisticisnt going to happen and if it does, wont be for a year two) why not do something proactive like emailing your objection, calling them voice your objection. thats what ive done anyway. its easy to come up with solutions from your couch but in order to affect the immediate issue of potential charges you have to actually do something practical instead of giving out about our capitalist world.

recedite

eleMental wrote: »

why not do something proactive like emailing your objection...
you have to actually do something practical instead of giving out about our capitalist world.

Right, but I'm not convinced that keeping it free of charge is the best option, now that the population of Greystones has grown. For the same reason that parking fees were introduced to the town; otherwise the streets would be permanently clogged up with parked cars. I don't even try to use the Park and Ride anymore except at the weekend because there's no point doing a lap of the place before going elsewhere.
The best option is to expand it, and there is under-used council land on each side of it as mentioned earlier.
Anyway open air car parks are a waste of space in a town centre; multi-storey + commercial development is the way to go.

Failing those more creative options (which I expect) parking fees are the only other option.

2011

Parking fees in the park and ride car park don't solve any problem. All it will do is move the problem somewhere else and make it a bigger problem. This will discourage people from using the Dart and encourage them to drive on our over congested roads or to cog up local estates by parking there instead.
The aim should be to get more people to use public transport, this is in everyone's interest.

Greystones is expensive enough as it is. Next you will have to pay to walk on the beach or for your child to use the swing in the playground. Is anything going to be safe from a tax or a fee?

recedite

Demand in the Park and Ride exceeds supply.
Either increase supply, or reduce demand.
Increasing supply is obviously the better solution, but the easier solution is to reduce demand by increasing the price.

Doing neither is not a solution.

2011

recedite wrote: »

Demand in the Park and Ride exceeds supply.
Either increase supply, or reduce demand.
Increasing supply is obviously the better solution, but the easier solution is to reduce demand by increasing the price.

Doing neither is not a solution.

How is encouraging people not to use public transport or encouraging them to park in local estates a solution?

Moving a problem is not solving a problem.

Annasopra

recedite wrote: »

Demand in the Park and Ride exceeds supply.
Either increase supply, or reduce demand.
Increasing supply is obviously the better solution, but the easier solution is to reduce demand by increasing the price.

Doing neither is not a solution.

That is ONLY a solution to the issues in the park and ride. Its not a solution to other issues such as encouraging public transport use, encouraging local business support, discouraging heavy traffic and congestion.

loyatemu

Supply and demand - assuming the P&R still fills up @ €2, that's €900 per day into the council coffers - can't blame them for trying it. If the P&R is full now, and it's still full after the charge is introduced then it's not affecting public transport usage. Some users may switch to walking or cycling to the station freeing up spaces for people driving from further away. Obviously if they bring in the charge and the carpark ends up half-empty, then they've got the price wrong, but I suspect the correct price is more than €0.

Suggesting a muti-storey carpark is pie-in-the-sky - such a development would definitely be pay-parking, and there is limited Dart capacity from Greystones anyway.

markest

I'd say if you filled in all the kerbs & wasted areas approx 40 spaces could be added at hardly any cost.

2011

loyatemu wrote: »

Supply and demand - assuming the P&R still fills up @ €2, that's €900 per day into the council coffers - can't blame them for trying it.

So any opportunity to generate revenue should exploited regardless of anything else?
Just because the council can generate additional revenue they should in every case or just where they can screw people that have no other choice??

In that case why not introduce a raft of additional tolls / charges / stealth taxes for anyone that enters, exits or lives in the area?

pixbyjohn

Just a reminder >>>> Lots of cars were ticketed this morning in the park & ride because they were not parked in designated parking spots. There is a purge on at the moment down there to catch cars randomly parked where they shouldn't be parked.

loyatemu

2011 wrote: »

So any opportunity to generate revenue should exploited regardless of anything else?
Just because the council can generate additional revenue they should in every case or just where they can screw people that have no other choice??

In that case why not introduce a raft of additional tolls / charges / stealth taxes for anyone that enters, exits or lives in the area?

As a non-user of the P&R I've no strong feelings on the matter - you can object to the proposal. However what they're proposing is not particularly outlandish, most other P&R facilities around the city are charged and many of them are more expensive than this.

It's a shame the Charlesland shuttle bus was cancelled, it would have alleviated the pressure on the P&R - a shuttle serving Eden Gate, Charlesland and the new estates about to be built in between could take a lot of cars off the road.

2011

loyatemu wrote: »

However what they're proposing is not particularly outlandish, most other P&R facilities around the city are charged and many of them are more expensive than this.

I remember when refuse charges were first introduced. They were very reasonable initially. Look what happened :eek:

Make no mistake, this is the thin end of the wedge. It won't be €2 a day for very long.

As I mentioned earlier many will simply park in local estates to avoid the parking fee. I doubt this will go down well with the local residents.

My personal belief is that we should encourage as many as possible to use public transport. This is in everyone's interest. This decision should it go through is very short sighted in my opinion.

cocker5

In all honesty €2... it's €2 per day let's keep it in perspective it's less than a coffee.

I used the luas park and ride everyday -5 days per week and it's double that.. that's before my petrol driving there (red cow) and luas fee...

recedite

loyatemu wrote: »

Some users may switch to walking or cycling to the station freeing up spaces for people driving from further away. Obviously if they bring in the charge and the carpark ends up half-empty, then they've got the price wrong, but I suspect the correct price is more than €0.

Good points, I agree.

Annasopra

loyatemu wrote: »

As a non-user of the P&R I've no strong feelings on the matter - you can object to the proposal. However what they're proposing is not particularly outlandish, most other P&R facilities around the city are charged and many of them are more expensive than this.

It's a shame the Charlesland shuttle bus was cancelled, it would have alleviated the pressure on the P&R - a shuttle serving Eden Gate, Charlesland and the new estates about to be built in between could take a lot of cars off the road.

Or a radical suggestion. Another station and park and ride at Charlesland.

Annasopra

cocker5 wrote: »

In all honesty €2... it's €2 per day let's keep it in perspective it's less than a coffee.

I used the luas park and ride everyday -5 days per week and it's double that.. that's before my petrol driving there (red cow) and luas fee...

€2 this year. Remember when college fees were €150. They are €3000 now.

loyatemu

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Or a radical suggestion. Another station and park and ride at Charlesland.

that's more aerial pie - there are at least 50 transport projects that would be considered higher priority. It wouldn't add any extra capacity to the system either.

Annasopra

loyatemu wrote: »

that's more aerial pie - there are at least 50 transport projects that would be considered higher priority. It wouldn't add any extra capacity to the system either.

With the growth in the town (and new estates along farrankelly road) it may have to happen in 15/20 years.

cocker5

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

€2 this year. Remember when college fees were €150. They are €3000 now.

It's not even comparible infairness...

The colllege fees is another discussion altogether and also incomparsion to other countries €3,000 is reasonable.

Park and ride for the luas and for other dart station - prices have remained the same for years.

Regardless of what people think these car parks need to maintained, ie lighting , resurfacing, lining out of spaces - all of which costs money - a lot of money, which the users of this part should contribute to IMO. I can't believe it was free for so long.

Honestly people it's €2.. for a whole day!

loyatemu

cocker5 wrote: »

It's not even comparible infairness...

The colllege fees is another discussion altogether and also incomparsion to other countries €3,000 is reasonable.

Park and ride for the luas and for other dart station - prices have remained the same for years.

Regardless of what people think these car parks need to maintained, ie lighting , resurfacing, lining out of spaces - all of which costs money - a lot of money, which the users of this part should contribute to IMO. I can't believe it was free for so long.

Honestly people it's €2.. for a whole day!

they're also having to pay for wardens to patrol the carpark now that it full every day and people are trying to park on the roadways etc. In the village the parking fees pay for the wardens, not so in the P&R (they're probably making some money from fines at the moment, but that'll only reduce and a lot of fines don't get paid anyway).

This could be the reason they're proposing fees at this time - possibly they've decided to hire an extra warden and this is how they're paying for it.

76544567

2011 wrote: »

I don't think that illegal parking should be addressed by introducing parking fees.

If you look what they did at all the stations in Dublin you can see how it will go.

Charge for parking saying you have no choice but to charge.

Mark the spaces and remove any grey area parking, so you have less spaces and so you can clamp the people who use those after the charges come in. You can say you did maintenance for that as another excuse for the charges.

Introduce a monthly ticket, where you pay but it doesnt guarantee you a space, because if you are a little bit late one day you wont get a space you paid for.

Wait a little while and double the charge, or more.

Before you know it everyone is paying about €1000 a year to park their car, so they can get to work to earn €2000 in order to pay that €1000 extra, and rail prices probably increased in the meantime too.

recedite

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Or a radical suggestion. Another station and park and ride at Charlesland.

Good idea, or even start it at Kilcoole and have it stop off at Charlesland. Certainly a lot more useful and functional than having two Luas stops in Sandyford Industrial Estate, and calling one of them Stillorgan!

loyatemu wrote: »

that's more aerial pie - there are at least 50 transport projects that would be considered higher priority. It wouldn't add any extra capacity to the system either.

Well there is that whole single track problem, but to increase capacity I'm sure there would be a way of running an extra train at rush hours, and having both trains running in close proximity.

As for "pie in the sky", well this discussion is not really about what will happen. We all know (whether we care to admit it or not) that parking charges will come in. But its still amusing to think about what should or could happen.
As John Lennon said "Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..":)

Annasopra

cocker5 wrote: »

It's not even comparible infairness...

The colllege fees is another discussion altogether and also incomparsion to other countries €3,000 is reasonable.

Park and ride for the luas and for other dart station - prices have remained the same for years.

Regardless of what people think these car parks need to maintained, ie lighting , resurfacing, lining out of spaces - all of which costs money - a lot of money, which the users of this part should contribute to IMO. I can't believe it was free for so long.

Honestly people it's €2.. for a whole day!

It's an illustration that once there is a charge for something the charge can increase quite a lot over time. Yes it is perfectly comparable in that sense. €2 might seem miniscule to you. But it's not to many others when it adds up. Thats an extra €500 a year that not everyone can afford. It's €6.50 a day in Bray by the way.

76544567

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It's an illustration that once there is a charge for something the charge can increase quite a lot over time. Yes it is perfectly comparable in that sense. €2 might seem miniscule to you. But it's not to many others when it adds up. Thats an extra €500 a year that not everyone can afford. It's €6.50 a day in Bray by the way.

Probably started at €2 in bray a few years ago too.

Boaty

Services cost money but 6.50 in Bray is extortion.
A lot of Greystones is within 1,5 km of the station, if secure bicycle storage was provided maybe people would cycle thus reducing the need for more spaces.
A dart extension to Kilcoole with a station at Charlesland would cost several million to service a small number of people in comparison to a new N11 park n ride with bus lane which would cost a similar amount.

cocker5

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It's an illustration that once there is a charge for something the charge can increase quite a lot over time. Yes it is perfectly comparable in that sense. €2 might seem miniscule to you. But it's not to many others when it adds up. Thats an extra €500 a year that not everyone can afford. It's €6.50 a day in Bray by the way.

I never said it was minuscule to me as per my previous post I pay double that .. each day, plus petrol, plus luas ticket. It's not by choice I have to get to work.. regardless of how I feel paying for it.

However people using the service and travelling by dart.. presumably to go to work or to go into town maybe shopping then I'm sorry but they can afford it - they just don't want to.

People using to shop in greystones.. same as above.. they can afford €2.

Let's face it's €2 won't even buy you a tea let alone a coffee or sandwich.

I actually think anything up to €5 for an entrie days parking is not mental money!

8-10 hours parking for €2.. even €5??

I parked in jury's inn on Christchurch in town for 1 hour and 5 mins on Monday and it cost me €7.20!!!

Let's keep it in perspective! It's not unreasonable to expect to pay something for a parking facility.

As I already mentioned the maintenance of this area costs money - this has to be paid for... and I stand by at the current proposed rate of €2 that's pretty cheap.

At the end of the day this has to factored into all costs for a person using it..

76544567

cocker5 wrote: »

I never said it was minuscule to me as per my previous post I pay double that .. each day, plus petrol, plus luas ticket. It's not by choice I have to get to work.. regardless of how I feel paying for it.

However people using the service and travelling by dart.. presumably to go to work or to go into town maybe shopping then I'm sorry but they can afford it - they just don't want to.

People using to shop in greystones.. same as above.. they can afford €2.

Let's face it's €2 won't even buy you a tea let alone a coffee or sandwich.

I actually think anything up to €5 for an entrie days parking is not mental money!

8-10 hours parking for €2.. even €5??

I parked in jury's inn on Christchurch in town for 1 hour and 5 mins on Monday and it cost me €7.20!!!

Let's keep it in perspective! It's not unreasonable to expect to pay something for a parking facility.

As I already mentioned the maintenance of this area costs money - this has to be paid for... and I stand by at the current proposed rate of €2 that's pretty cheap.

At the end of the day this has to factored into all costs for a person using it..

All well and good if they make a legally binding commitment that €2 stays at €2 for say a minimum of 10 years.

Otherwise it will be €2 to get it in the door and then €6 in two years.
But hey, cheaper than Bray.

Kat1170

cocker5 wrote: »

I never said it was minuscule to me as per my previous post I pay double that .. each day, plus petrol, plus luas ticket. It's not by choice I have to get to work.. regardless of how I feel paying for it.

However people using the service and travelling by dart.. presumably to go to work or to go into town maybe shopping then I'm sorry but they can afford it - they just don't want to.

People using to shop in greystones.. same as above.. they can afford €2.

Let's face it's €2 won't even buy you a tea let alone a coffee or sandwich.

I actually think anything up to €5 for an entrie days parking is not mental money!

8-10 hours parking for €2.. even €5??

I parked in jury's inn on Christchurch in town for 1 hour and 5 mins on Monday and it cost me €7.20!!!

Let's keep it in perspective! It's not unreasonable to expect to pay something for a parking facility.

As I already mentioned the maintenance of this area costs money - this has to be paid for... and I stand by at the current proposed rate of €2 that's pretty cheap.

At the end of the day this has to factored into all costs for a person using it..

Ah right, so your argument is basically based on the "if I have to do it, everyone should have to" field of thought.

cocker5

Kat1170 wrote: »

Ah right, so your argument is basically based on the "if I have to do it, everyone should have to" field of thought.

Yes thats exactly what i said above.. word for word :rolleyes:

Its a service that COSTS the council money to run... its not maintaned for free... so yes therefore everyone should pay - simple fact

and ill go back to my actual point €2??? even €5 come on people its hardly first world problems here!!!

Kat1170

cocker5 wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what i said above.. word for word

Glad you agree

cocker5 wrote: »

Its a service that COSTS the council money to run... its not maintaned for free... so yes therefore everyone should pay - simple fact

When people move back to using their cars to get to work every day it is going to COST more in road maintenance, as well as extra congestion and pollution, so they are only trading one COST for another. Simple fact !!!!!!!

cocker5

Kat1170 wrote: »

Glad you agree



When people move back to using their cars to get to work every day it is going to COST more in road maintenance, as well as extra congestion and pollution, so they are only trading one COST for another. Simple fact !!!!!!!

eh no not really we pay for the roads through other taxes, and our car tax looks after our roads / emissions..
so no their not trading anything really, they get taxes for them anyway!

Annasopra

cocker5 wrote: »

Yes thats exactly what i said above.. word for word :rolleyes:

Its a service that COSTS the council money to run... its not maintaned for free... so yes therefore everyone should pay - simple fact

and ill go back to my actual point €2??? even €5 come on people its hardly first world problems here!!!

Such patronising arguments that because you can afford an extra €10 a week everyone else can. I'd love to see your proof of this! You seem to be asserting it as a fact with nothing backing the fact up other than your opinion.

Not only that but you seem to ignore everything in this discussion apart from the cost.

Kat1170

cocker5 wrote: »

eh no not really we pay for the roads through other taxes, and our car tax looks after our roads / emissions..
so no their not trading anything really, they get taxes for them anyway!

'Motor tax' just goes into general taxation and is not used specifically for 'upkeep of the roads'.

If people don't use P&R it creates extra traffic. There will be EXTRA wear and tear on the roads which will cost EXTRA to fix.



I underlined and bolded the word EXTRA because despite your use of the word earlier I don't think you understand it.

How is extra traffic on the roads a good thing.
It creates extra costs for upkeep of infrastructure, creates extra pollution, and extra congestion.
All the things P&R is supposed to reduce.

2011

Please keep the discussion civil.
Thanks.

jobless

The point of park and rides are to get people to use public transport not price them out of it..... 500 quid on top of people's already expensive transport costs is a lot!..
If the government was serious about reducing car usage then these should be subsidised..

As for the costs of maintaining the car park.....very minimal i would say...
assuming a full car park Mon-Fri (500 spaces) thats 5k a week or 20k a month, or 240k a year.... employing an extra warden and upkeep id say 60k max (and thats being generous).... its shows that it is purely a revenue raising exercise...

If they wanted to break even on the car park, charge people 50 cent a day...