Michael Conlan Pro Debut

Noveight

Watching this back on RTE2 now, this Ibarra bloke looked like a TY student on work experience.

megadodge

Just watched it now and as debuts go it was a decent solid performance. That's all.
It's out of the way now and he can get on with it, improving and adapting his style to the pros.

As Walshb highlighted and it's also something that I have noticed, Michael tends to throw wide back hands from either stance. I'm really not a fan of this type of punch and can't understand why any boxer wouldn't throw that shot straighter - with the odd exception to prevent too much predictability.


As for those who don't like the hype - well are you a boxing fan or not? Cos if you are, how could you not want boxing to be getting lots of publicity? No publicity is bad publicity and when you see a station as reluctant as RTE have proven to be, covering his debut and putting it on a primetime slot, surely this is great news for boxing in Ireland? How could it not be?

Henno30

megadodge wrote: »

Just watched it now and as debuts go it was a decent solid performance. That's all.
It's out of the way now and he can get on with it, improving and adapting his style to the pros.

As Walshb highlighted and it's also something that I have noticed, Michael tends to throw wide back hands from either stance. I'm really not a fan of this type of punch and can't understand why any boxer wouldn't throw that shot straighter - with the odd exception to prevent too much predictability.

You can throw it if you have the timing to land it. Conlan's timing was way out last night.

megadodge

Henno30 wrote: »

You can throw it if you have the timing to land it. Conlan's timing was way out last night.

As I said, I don't mind throwing it occasionally, but not with the regularity Michael throws it.

The reasons I don't like it are
1. It takes longer to hit the target ie. shortest distance between two points is a straight line.
2. You need to be closer to throw it, meaning you're further inside the firing line.
3. If you miss with it there tends to be an over-extension and hence the possibility of being off-balance, which is never good.


Actually speaking of wide deliveries, looking at Olympic gold medallist Conceciau here and wow, he really needs work on punch delivery.

walshb

I am not sure timing plays any significant part in wide delivered shots. More luck than timing as regards it landing. It's the shorter and crisper shots that require and use timing.

walshb

Btw, if any are expecting Conlan to change or really improve don't hold your breath. It doesn't work like that. He's a veteran of the art. His style and overall presence is what it is. His punch delivery and mechanics are what they are. Little tweaks here and there may help, but they may hinder. Changing a style or punch delivery that comes natural to you isn't always a good thing, or an improvement.

He can make it IF he can take a good shot and give a good shot. It really is that simple. He may pick up a few tricks along the way, but don't be expecting some drastic change or improvement. He has the tools, but tools alone won't guarantee getting to the top.

Too Tough To Die

walshb wrote: »

Btw, if any are expecting Conlan to change or really improve don't hold your breath. It doesn't work like that. He's a veteran of the art. His style and overall presence is what it is. His punch delivery and mechanics are what they are. Little tweaks here and there may help, but they may hinder. Changing a style or punch delivery that comes natural to you isn't always a good thing, or an improvement.

He can make it IF he can take a good shot and give a good shot. It really is that simple. He may pick up a few tricks along the way, but don't be expecting some drastic change or improvement. He has the tools, but tools alone won't guarantee getting to the top.

Lol, you talk some guff. Don't expect a one fight novice to improve, it doesn't work like that? Okay mate.

walshb

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Lol, you talk some guff. Don't expect a one fight novice to improve, it doesn't work like that? Okay mate.

You're a bit too rough around the edges to get what I mean.

Too Tough To Die

walshb wrote: »

You're a bit too rough around the edges to get what I mean.

You said "if any are expecting Conlan to change or really improve don't hold your breath. It doesn't work like that". That's pretty straightforward. Please explain to me how it doesn't work like that, and why we shouldn't expect a one fight novice to improve when i can find you a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

walshb

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

You said "if any are expecting Conlan to change or really improve don't hold your breath. It doesn't work like that". That's pretty straightforward. Please explain to me how it doesn't work like that, and why we shouldn't expect a one fight novice to improve when i can find you a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Whatever I said was lost on you...

begbysback

Noveight wrote: »

Watching this back on RTE2 now, this Ibarra bloke looked like a TY student on work experience.

To be fair though I'm sure he was thinking "what the fcuk, am I fighting Mc Gregor, Conlon, or both" thats not even mentioning the leprechaun costumes!!

walshb

pac_man wrote: »

There's plenty of successful fighters that have that long looping punching style, Danny Garcia spring ls to mind of someone in which that punch would be effective with good timing.

The thing is that Danny has very good power and a good solid chin.

The point I was making that there will be little tweaks here and there, but nobody should be expecting any real changes with Conlan. His punch delivery and mechanics are part of him. That's his style. He has the moves and the mechanics in place. His big question is can he hurt quality opposition, and can he take their punches. If I had to lay a bet I would think not. Why? Just a feeling/hunch. Something missing as regards real strength of body and chin for me. I was the same with Bernard Dunne. Conlan's D seems a little suspect for me.

Compare those two to Frampton. Something solid and sturdy about Frampton. Power, chin, and all the rest.

Question: Is MC clearly a better prospect than JJN? I kind of see them similarly. Not style wise, but just similar as regards their pro potential.

begbysback

walshb wrote: »

Btw, if any are expecting Conlan to change or really improve don't hold your breath. It doesn't work like that. He's a veteran of the art. His style and overall presence is what it is. His punch delivery and mechanics are what they are. Little tweaks here and there may help, but they may hinder. Changing a style or punch delivery that comes natural to you isn't always a good thing, or an improvement.

He can make it IF he can take a good shot and give a good shot. It really is that simple. He may pick up a few tricks along the way, but don't be expecting some drastic change or improvement. He has the tools, but tools alone won't guarantee getting to the top.

Quite true though I don't think we seen what he really had the other night because he toyed with him for 2 rounds and went for it, somewhat sloppily in the third - what he will get though is wiser - not sure if it's his youthful face but to me he looked like a kid in the ring the other night - most likely to be another 3 maybe even 4 yrs before a world title fight - by then he should be a man - excellent prospect though and I do hope it starts being about the boxing soon, and the circus is dropped

brevity

This is an interesting read...

http//www.theguardian.com/sport/the-balls-of-wrath/2017/mar/20/michael-conlan-profesional-debut-boxing-conor-mcgregor-new-york

It's by Paul Gibson for The Balls of Wrath - a boxing blog (http://theballsofwrath.com/)

walshb

begbysback wrote: »

Quite true though I don't think we seen what he really had the other night because he toyed with him for 2 rounds and went for it, somewhat sloppily in the third - what he will get though is wiser - not sure if it's his youthful face but to me he looked like a kid in the ring the other night - most likely to be another 3 maybe even 4 yrs before a world title fight - by then he should be a man - excellent prospect though and I do hope it starts being about the boxing soon, and the circus is dropped

3-4 years is far too long for MC. Think about it? Can he really be 122 lbs aged 29 or so? He wants to win belts in 3 weight divisions. Needs to be at the top at 122 within 12-18 months IMO. If no then he may find that weight a real strain. Or does he bypass 122 within 18 months and go to 126? Bigger men and stronger men. 130.....another huge step. Anyway, a real WIP at the moment.

begbysback

walshb wrote: »

3-4 years is far too long for MC. Think about it? Can he really be 122 lbs aged 29 or so? He wants to win belts in 3 weight divisions. Needs to be at the top at 122 within 12-18 months IMO. If no then he may find that weight a real strain. Or does he bypass 122 within 18 months and go to 126? Bigger men and stronger men. 130.....another huge step. Anyway, a real WIP at the moment.

3 weight divisions - I admire his optimism but let's get one belt first!!

I reckon he needs min 15 fights before a title shot, let's say 5 fights per year, all going well with no injuries and not getting caught with a lucky punch, that's 3 years min

If he gets thrown in earlier the it's likely he will get beaten by a worse fighter who has more experience than him - I don't see how the timeframe can be shortened

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

The thing is that Danny has very good power and a good solid chin.

The point I was making that there will be little tweaks here and there, but nobody should be expecting any real changes with Conlan. His punch delivery and mechanics are part of him. That's his style. He has the moves and the mechanics in place. His big question is can he hurt quality opposition, and can he take their punches. If I had to lay a bet I would think not. Why? Just a feeling/hunch. Something missing as regards real strength of body and chin for me. I was the same with Bernard Dunne. Conlan's D seems a little suspect for me.

Compare those two to Frampton. Something solid and sturdy about Frampton. Power, chin, and all the rest.

Question: Is MC clearly a better prospect than JJN? I kind of see them similarly. Not style wise, but just similar as regards their pro potential.

If the playing field and opportunities were equal then I think it would be pretty even in terms of prospects.

One thing in Conlans favour against JJN is that he will squeeze every last drop out of his talent, whatever level it takes him to (thats up for debate). It won't be for the lack of effort and work.

We cannot say the same about Nevin unfortunately.

A Little Pony

First good shot on this guys chin and he will go asleep. Hype job.

walshb

A Little Pony wrote: »

First good shot on this guys chin and he will go asleep. Hype job.

Brave post considering alternative views on MC and his potential pro success will see some here slate you.

I don't disagree with your post. It is all just hype at this moment in time. In my view completely unjustified hype, and the type of hype that actually weakens the credibility of the sport. People saying that we should be happy the sport is getting publicity seems off to me. As a fan of the sport I see it as not positive publicity. It lacks any semblance of substance, and surely true boxing fans can see it as nothing but circus type hype. Even casual and non fans may see it.

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

Brave post considering alternative views on MC and his potential pro success will see some here slate you.

I don't disagree with your post. It is all just hype at this moment in time. In my view completely unjustified hype, and the type of hype that actually weakens the credibility of the sport. People saying that we should be happy the sport is getting publicity seems off to me. As a fan of the sport I see it as not positive publicity. It lacks any semblance of substance, and surely true boxing fans can see it as nothing but circus type hype. Even casual and non fans may see it.

Agreed. And if it does turn out that hes not up to much then people who gave boxing a momentary glance on the back of this hype will be saying "Ah sure isn't boxing a joke anyway"

Its no different to the fanfare around Anthony Joshua in the UK (albeit hes further along), selling out Wembley stadium with people who haven't got a bulls notion about the sport, but ala Jamie Redknapp and the soccer am crew they love the "big man".

walshb

Just to point to out a few differences with the Joshua hype.

Olympic Champion at a home Olympics in the big boys' division. Seriously looks the part, and competing as a pro in boxing's premier division. Little bit more to play with here in my view.

Blanco100

walshb wrote: »

Just to point to out a few differences with the Joshua hype.

Olympic Champion at a home Olympics in the big boys' division. Seriously looks the part, annd competing as a pro in progress boxing's premier division. Little bit more to play with here in my view.

Joshua has had similar hype from his first fight. I know you are impressed with him. He has been crowned the future of the division from his very first pro fight. Its the same thing.

Now granted he is a title holder in his division, I personally think he has proven nothing but thats not the debate. Point is, from the off there was hype around Joshua by people who know damn all about boxing.

I don't think Bob Arum even believes the hype, he is just delighted to have an Irish name to market to the east coast market.

I said it before, i'd love to see Conlan develop into a world class fighter, unifying titles in multiple divisions but the hype is more around his marketability than his actual ability. John Duddy was marketable in NY don't forget and Conlan may very well plateau and go the same route.

Burial.

Only thing about Joshua was that he looked pretty average at the Olympics and was gifted not one but two fights in it. Absolute travesty that he won gold.

Morrison J

Firstly, there is more evidence of him having a good pro career than there is of him getting knocked out at the first step up. If you think it's stupid being positive about his prospects than its equally, if not more, silly to look at it negatively. There's less substance to that point of view. Quite contradictory if you think he's a cert to fail but anyone thinking he'll do well is just giving into the hype.

Secondly, people need to understand the difference between being a star and an elite talent. They aren't always intertwined. Cotto is an example. Ability wise overrated but a star anyway because he was marketable and matched well through his career. Nobody here has said Conlan is a cert to be a world champion. Does he have the potential? I believe so, but its a long path ahead.

Conlan will be made into a star once he gets to even fringe world level. Literally nothing irrational about thinking he can achieve that. He has the pedigree.

walshb

He has an amateur pedigree. It's not at all silly to suggest he could make it to fringe world level or higher, just like it's not at all silly to think he does not. In other words a bit of give and take here. This kind of attitude that those who think he won't make it are silly and begrudging is equally as silly as those thinking he does make it as being silly.

This is a nice thread. It's relevant and in the moment, hence why questions being asked should be encouraged.

Here's one: This marketability? Conlan to me is just an average run of the mill kid. Irish and white. Kind of ten a penny. I just don't see what's to get worked up or exited about. He said it himself that had he not erupted in Rio he likely wouldn't be getting near the attention that he is getting.

Remember. Thread opening suggests absolute superstar. Not saying that cannot happen, but to state it with such conviction based off what, is what we are discussing.

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

He has an amateur pedigree. It's not at all silly to suggest he could make it to fringe world level or higher, just like it's not at all silly to think he does not. In other words a bit of give and take here. This kind of attitude that those who think he won't make it are silly and begrudging is equally as silly as those thinking he does make it as being silly.

This is a nice thread. It's relevant and in the moment, hence why questions being asked should be encouraged.

Here's one: This marketability? Conlan to me is just an average run of the mill kid. Irish and white. Kind of ten a penny. I just don't see what's to get worked up or exited about. He said it himself that had he not erupted in Rio he likely wouldn't be getting near the attention that he is getting.

In today's game it's quite simple to get to fringe world level in fairness. He may not like, but I'd sway to the side of it being more likely than not. I'd expect Top Rank to match him well enough that it's a fairly straightforward process up the rankings.

Marketability wise I don't think it's too tricky. He has a bigger personality than most of the dull fighters these days, Irish fans who'll travel and make his shows into big "events", I expect him to have a fan friendly style etc. He's a very easy sell. Literally ticks every box there is marketability wise.

walshb

You said in an earlier post that there's more evidence that he'll have a good pro career as opposed to getting knocked out when he steps up? Not sure what evidence you have. One could easily say that his defence, wide shooting and propensity to get hit clean would lead people to think that he could get knocked out. The only argument against that is that his chin is solid. But right now we cannot say that. Sure, when he does show a solid chin we can...

Morrison J

walshb wrote: »

You said in an earlier post that there's more evidence that he'll have a good pro career as opposed to getting knocked out when he steps up? Not sure what evidence you have. One could easily say that his defence, wide shooting and propensity to get hit clean would lead people to think that he could get knocked out. The only argument against that is that his chin is solid. But right now we cannot say that. Sure, when he does show a solid chin we can...

Out of interest, who do you think is more naturally talented Jamie or Michael Conlan?

Jamie is already at fringe world level and has an average chin.

There's no evidence Michael Conlan has a bad chin. If I'm going by the law of averages his chin is fine and there's no reason that his floor is anywhere below where his brother has got to. Difference is once Michael Conlan gets to that world title shot stage he'll have been marketed heavily enough that he'll be a very well known name in the sport and towards that star status that I anticipate once he mixes it at that level.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Out of interest, who do you think is more naturally talented Jamie or Michael Conlan?

Jamie is already at fringe world level and has an average chin.

There's no evidence Michael Conlan has a bad chin. If I'm going by the law of averages his chin is fine and there's no reason that his floor is anywhere below where his brother has got to. Difference is once Michael Conlan gets to that world title shot stage he'll have been marketed heavily enough that he'll be a very well known name in the sport and towards that star status that I anticipate once he mixes it at that level.

You made a very pertinent point as regards what is fringe world level. You are right, it is not all that difficult a task. Just look at some of the so called WCs around today.

I would be fairly confident that MC gets to fringe and possibly above that should he show me a strong presence in the ring and a solid beard. I don't think he gets there based off his defence and power. I see him having a fair few distance fights where he will take shots, and IMO if the chin is solid then he has the tools and talent to win on points.

BTW, I think talent wise and versatility wise MC has more to his game than Jamie.

walshb

Burial. wrote: »

Only thing about Joshua was that he looked pretty average at the Olympics and was gifted not one but two fights in it. Absolute travesty that he won gold.

But he still won the gold medal, and in the SHW division, and at the home Olympics, and then went on to be a pro at HW. Can you imagine if we produced that? Superstar would be the biggest understatement ever. I made the point to show that him and Conlan are not comparable here. No way. Is AJ hyped? Yes, no doubt.