Bulk or cut?

New Goat

5ft 10"(178cm) male.

Currently 71kg.

Dexa scanned at 15% BF(at 69.5kg) five months ago and 13%(at 69kg)two months ago.

Have eaten a lot more food recently over last two months and definitely gained some strength but no doubt a bit of fat too, so estimated at 14% now maybe.

I have fat I want to try get rid of but also want to increase strength. Not sure now how to proceed.

Lower body strength in terms of squat and deadlift is reasonable but upper body is relatively weak.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

Alf Veedersane

Get down to 11-12% and then bulk.

Brian?

Are you happy with how you look at 15% bodyfat?

New Goat

Brian? wrote: »

Are you happy with how you look at 15% bodyfat?

Still quite a bit of fat to grab in the belly region which I am not a fan of. Just checked again, a lot of fat!!

I've definitely been a lot leaner in the past, long time ago. I guess now is a good time to spend two or three months to get lean before the summer.

Just looking forward to getting strong too.

Brian?

New Goat wrote: »

Still quite a bit of fat to grab in the belly region which I am not a fan of. Just checked again, a lot of fat!!

I've definitely been a lot leaner in the past, long time ago. I guess now is a good time to spend two or three months to get lean before the summer.

Just looking forward to getting strong too.

If you manage it right you can drop the fat and still keep getting stronger. Dropping from 15% to 10% isn't really a "cut" to me, a cut is something far more drastic like a fighter does to make weight. You can easily run a calorie deficit and get stronger. Strength gains come from CNS adaptation and muscle gain.

So my answer is really "none of the above". Dial down your calories to run a slight deficit, no more than 500 Kcals, and continue to train hard. Throw in the occasional refeed day, eat all the cows on that day.

New Goat

Brian? wrote: »

If you manage it right you can drop the fat and still keep getting stronger. Dropping from 15% to 10% isn't really a "cut" to me, a cut is something far more drastic like a fighter does to make weight. You can easily run a calorie deficit and get stronger. Strength gains come from CNS adaptation and muscle gain.

So my answer is really "none of the above". Dial down your calories to run a slight deficit, no more than 500 Kcals, and continue to train hard. Throw in the occasional refeed day, eat all the cows on that day.

Sounds like a plan. Depending on my level of training and walking id still be in a decent deficit at somewhere in the region 2000 - 2500 calories per day which is still a lot of food when you break it down.

PowerToWait

New Goat wrote: »

Sounds like a plan. Depending on my level of training and walking id still be in a decent deficit at somewhere in the region 2000 - 2500 calories per day which is still a lot of food when you break it down.

Are you sure about yer numbers?

marialouise

PowerToWait wrote: »

New Goat wrote: »

Sounds like a plan. Depending on my level of training and walking  id still be in a decent deficit at somewhere in the region 2000 - 2500 calories per day which is still a lot of food when you break it down.

Are you sure about yer numbers?

I think he means eating at 2000-2500 that he'd be in a deficit, not that he's eating a deficit of 2500!

Mellor

marialouise wrote: »

I think he means eating at 2000-2500 that he'd be in a deficit, not that he's eating a deficit of 2500!

I think he understood what OP meant.
He's asking whether total calories are worked out correctly. Being in deficit at 2500 cals would mean a TDEE of 3000 cals. Which is a lot at 71kg.
Not impossible however, depending on what he does for a living and (less importantly) how often he trains.

LuckyLloyd

What does your training look like presently?

New Goat

PowerToWait wrote: »

Are you sure about yer numbers?

marialouise wrote: »

I think he means eating at 2000-2500 that he'd be in a deficit, not that he's eating a deficit of 2500!

Mellor wrote: »

I think he understood what OP meant.
He's asking whether total calories are worked out correctly. Being in deficit at 2500 cals would mean a TDEE of 3000 cals. Which is a lot at 71kg.
Not impossible however, depending on what he does for a living and (less importantly) how often he trains.

Yes a deficit at 2500 would only be when I'm doing a longish intensive gym session along with some walking during the week and longer distance hiking at the weekend.

1800-2000 would be required for a deficit with more moderate activity levels

PowerToWait

I'm at 74kg after dropping 7 since November and I have to get down to 2200 even with mucho 'cardio' type training to continue to cut. I'm older though probably so there is that.

Johnnyhpipe

How old are you OP?

New Goat

Johnnyhpipe wrote: »

How old are you OP?

Very early thirties but sure it's the new twenties.

Personally I think I'm gonna try get rid of as much as the fat as possible first.

Alf Veedersane

New Goat wrote: »

Very early thirties but sure it's the new twenties.

Personally I think I'm gonna try get rid of as much as the fat as possible first.

Eat at a deficit but still train hard so you at least retain what muscle you have. You may also get stronger.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

New Goat wrote: »

Very early thirties but sure it's the new twenties.

Personally I think I'm gonna try get rid of as much as the fat as possible first.

Eat at a deficit but still train hard so you at least retain what muscle you have. You may also get stronger.

This.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What does your training look like presently?

.

New Goat

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What does your training look like presently?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

.

5 sets of 4-6 rep of deadlifts, squats and presses (separate days) along with related accessory work and higher rep conditioning type workouts for fitness.

Then I like to get about an hours walking in during the week and go for longer walks or hikes at the weekend.

Also currently do a dumbell workout once a week to target mainly the arms

New Goat

PowerToWait wrote: »

I'm at 74kg after dropping 7 since November and I have to get down to 2200 even with mucho 'cardio' type training to continue to cut. I'm older though probably so there is that.

2200 is probably what I'll have to go down to as the level of activity required for a deficit at 2500 is probably unsustainable or just not necessary despite wanting to eat those calories.

Alf Veedersane

New Goat wrote: »

5 sets of 4-6 rep of deadlifts, squats and presses (separate days) along with related accessory work and higher rep conditioning type workouts for fitness.

Then I like to get about an hours walking in during the week and go for longer walks or hikes at the weekend.

Also currently do a dumbell workout once a week to target mainly the arms

What's the accessory work like? You're going to need some volume to make those muscles work and justify themselves.

LuckyLloyd

New Goat wrote: »

5 sets of 4-6 rep of deadlifts, squats and presses (separate days) along with related accessory work and higher rep conditioning type workouts for fitness.

Then I like to get about an hours walking in during the week and go for longer walks or hikes at the weekend.

Also currently do a dumbell workout once a week to target mainly the arms

So something like:

D1
Deadlift; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D2
Press; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D3
Squat; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D4
The gunshow (bodybuilding workout)

+ hour walking every day
+ longer hike during weekend

Have I got that roughly right?

New Goat

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So something like:

D1
Deadlift; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D2
Press; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D3
Squat; 5 x 4 - 6
Accessory 1; higher rep
Accessory 2; higher rep
Conditioning Piece

D4
The gunshow (bodybuilding workout)

+ hour walking every day
+ longer hike during weekend

Have I got that roughly right?

Yep that about sums it up. Also I like food.

Perhaps add a D5 conditioning session once per week too

LuckyLloyd

New Goat wrote: »

Yep that about sums it up. Also I like food.

Perhaps add a D5 conditioning session once per week too

That's more than 'moderate activity'. Would you say you train with reasonable intensity? Give us some examples of conditioning pieces?

New Goat

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That's more than 'moderate activity'. Would you say you train with reasonable intensity? Give us some examples of conditioning pieces?

Conditioning pieces are often crossfit wods. can be quite intensive.

New Goat

I found this article an interesting take on the skinny fat epidemic

Essentially, they are recommending build some decent strength, then get rid of your fat. Otherwise you'll end up too skinny and will waste time in the long run.

New Goat

New Goat wrote: »

I found this article an interesting take on the skinny fat epidemic

Essentially, they are recommending build some decent strength, then get rid of your fat. Otherwise you'll end up too skinny and will waste time in the long run.

And then you read other articles that say get down to 10% BF before bulking.

The way I am thinking, it should only take a few months to get properly lean, so why not do that now. And as other posters have alluded to, could potentially increase strength or at least maintain most of it during this period.

bladespin

New Goat wrote:

And then you read other articles that say get down to 10% BF before bulking.

Pretty much a foundation for every 'transformation' loose fat first then build.
I'm sure you could go the other way but think it would take longer for noticible results physique wise.

Nickk2017

hi
   

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I'm not sure if i should cut more or bulk up.[/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]my goal is to be ripped with 6pax and some muscles.[/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Would appreciate if you could estimate my BF% and advise whether to cut or bulk?[/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Routine and Calorie intake?[/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]and is it possible to get 6pax by end of March if i continue 4 days lift + 3 cardio/week?[/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I burn 1300 calories on each day of Sat and Sun [Lift + cardio] while I burn 600+ on weekday work out [whether cardio or lift][/font]

[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]i'm 5'10.5 162lbs[/font]



[font=verdana, geneva, lucida, "lucida grande", arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Thanks[/font]

marialouise

New Goat wrote: »

New Goat wrote: »

I found this article an interesting take on the skinny fat epidemic

Essentially, they are recommending build some decent strength, then get rid of your fat. Otherwise you'll end up too skinny and will waste time in the long run.

And then you read other articles that say get down to 10% BF before bulking.

The way I am thinking, it should only take a few months to get properly lean, so why not do that now. And as other posters have alluded to, could potentially increase strength or at least maintain most of it during this period.

Just throwing my 2 cents in. I undertook a long diet last year, successfully losing (and keeping off) about 15kg. Down at the lower end of the scale I STILL had bodyfat I wasn't happy with, but my body said "no" to any more dieting. Certain health issues arose and even though my BMI was still like 21.5 or so, my body said no more, so I have to gain weight back now. I am trying  a long, slow, lean bulk and have gained back about 6-7kg since my lightest weight. Sometimes I think "nooo, look at all this bodyfat!" but I am also noticing muscle gains, strength gains, and my physique is still better than the average person of my height and weight and my clothes still fit. I am going to keep gaining for the foreseeable future, and will undertake a dieting phase when my health has stabilised for long enough. I understand how to do this properly to maintain as much muscle mass as possible, which is really important - no point in dieting away all those gains so make sure you plan your food and training accordingly. 
Two things:
-bulking physically to a strength goal of 100kg bench doesn't make much sense to me (but that could just be me). You can still increase or maintain strength while still maintaining weight, you the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. 
-Even if you get rid of that belly fat, it is very hard to maintain a lean physique all year long, so you will probably have to give it up eventually for a period of time. I'd be more inclined to focus on the strength goals because they're measurable and achievable with the right training, whereas with diet goals I got down below my desired goal and still wasn't happy. I'm embracing the bulk and yknow... gotta put up with the gut to get the butt.

Brian?

New Goat wrote: »

New Goat wrote: »

I found this article an interesting take on the skinny fat epidemic

Essentially, they are recommending build some decent strength, then get rid of your fat. Otherwise you'll end up too skinny and will waste time in the long run.

And then you read other articles that say get down to 10% BF before bulking.

The way I am thinking, it should only take a few months to get properly lean, so why not do that now. And as other posters have alluded to, could potentially increase strength or at least maintain most of it during this period.

Honestly I don't think it makes a blind bit of difference which you do.

I don't like the terminology of bulk/cut as you're using it. To be a bulk implies a gorgefest and a cut implies extreme calorie restriction.

What you want to do is a moderate calorie surplus to gain and a moderate calorie deficit to lose fat. But concentrating on getting stronger. You'll probably still get stronger on a deficit anyway. You would likely lose strength on a cut.

Blacktie.

Brian? wrote: »

I don't like the terminology of bulk/cut as you're using it. To be a bulk implies a gorgefest and a cut implies extreme calorie restriction.

Maybe 5 years ago. Now it's just bodybuilding jargon for will I focus on losing fat or gaining muscle. I think the days of gorge or starve are fading quickly.

New Goat

marialouise wrote: »

Just throwing my 2 cents in. I undertook a long diet last year, successfully losing (and keeping off) about 15kg. Down at the lower end of the scale I STILL had bodyfat I wasn't happy with, but my body said "no" to any more dieting. Certain health issues arose and even though my BMI was still like 21.5 or so, my body said no more, so I have to gain weight back now. I am trying  a long, slow, lean bulk and have gained back about 6-7kg since my lightest weight. Sometimes I think "nooo, look at all this bodyfat!" but I am also noticing muscle gains, strength gains, and my physique is still better than the average person of my height and weight and my clothes still fit. I am going to keep gaining for the foreseeable future, and will undertake a dieting phase when my health has stabilised for long enough. I understand how to do this properly to maintain as much muscle mass as possible, which is really important - no point in dieting away all those gains so make sure you plan your food and training accordingly. 
Two things:
-bulking physically to a strength goal of 100kg bench doesn't make much sense to me (but that could just be me). You can still increase or maintain strength while still maintaining weight, you the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. 
-Even if you get rid of that belly fat, it is very hard to maintain a lean physique all year long, so you will probably have to give it up eventually for a period of time. I'd be more inclined to focus on the strength goals because they're measurable and achievable with the right training, whereas with diet goals I got down below my desired goal and still wasn't happy. I'm embracing the bulk and yknow... gotta put up with the gut to get the butt.

Your post is interesting. Without being too intrusive, what kind of health issues did you encounter at your lowest weight?

For me, I was feeling quite weak and lethargic when I got slightly below 69KG (now 71ish). Although those symptoms could have been anything else like lack of sleep, nutrition issues, training issues etc.

I'm sure I must have weighed less as a youngster, but really don't recall what my weight was back then.

marialouise

New Goat wrote: »

Your post is interesting. Without being too intrusive, what kind of health issues did you encounter at your lowest weight?

For me, I was feeling quite weak and lethargic when I got slightly below 69KG (now 71ish). Although those symptoms could have been anything else like lack of sleep, nutrition issues, training issues etc.

I'm sure I must have weighed less as a youngster, but really don't recall what my weight was back then.

Well some of the reasons outlined here (fatigue, metabolic/hormonal adaptation) basically. It won't happen to everyone but it happened to me and even though I was not at  a low body weight, low body fat or low BMI, I simply restricted calories for too long and my body said no more. So I have to listen to my body, not the scales or the clothes and gain some weight back. It mightn't happen to you, but just be flexible in your approach, don't fixate on a bodyfat% or a bench weight, go with what your body wants. If you're weak and tired at a low weight then forget the body fat and focus on strength, you can always diet it off again if you have to. If you bulk relatively sensibly you'll reduce the effort in the subsequent diets. 
Full article: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/the-full-diet-break.html/