Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

Calina

Calina wrote: »

The Civil Service gets quite a lot of talent and experience for free given the profile of people who get through many of their competitions. To work your way up, however, you are at the mercy of waiting for internal and external promotion competitions. They do not necessarily turn up on a fixed schedule.

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Are you honestly thinking that the current state of affairs where they have to make up for an 8 year hiring freeze is going to be the norm? Because I doubt it somehow.

Calina

Calina wrote: »

Are you honestly thinking that the current state of affairs where they have to make up for an 8 year hiring freeze is going to be the norm? Because I doubt it somehow.

!

Cheeky enough response seeing as your case seems to be built on a temporary hiring freeze and the current state of a crazy property market!

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

!

Cheeky enough response seeing as your case seems to be built on a temporary hiring freeze and the current state of a crazy property market!

My case - if you have been reading my posts at all - is not that the figures should be increased but that something needs to be done on the property side. Sort that out and you're not just fixing things for a few COs, but for pretty much most of the retail sector workers and people on minimum wage or in precarious sectors like Uber/Deliveroo. The property market in Ireland was insane for the 17 years I lived there. A little bit of equilibrium for 20-30 years wouldn't be a bad thing for the economy as a whole.

Calina

Calina wrote: »

My case - if you have been reading my posts at all - is not that the figures should be increased but that something needs to be done on the property side. Sort that out and you're not just fixing things for a few COs, but for pretty much most of the retail sector workers and people on minimum wage or in precarious sectors like Uber/Deliveroo. The property market in Ireland was insane for the 17 years I lived there. A little bit of equilibrium for 20-30 years wouldn't be a bad thing for the economy as a whole.

If you'd been reading my posts at all you'd have seen that i responded to one of yours with pretty much this point myself.

We disagree on whether the CO salary is realistically liveable but agree on the solution to the main pressure on low earners in urban centres

Glenster

Calina wrote: »

My heart bleeds for you. My first job in Dublin was touching 10KE a year. There's such a thing as inflation and in accommodation matters, that has been quite high. If you started a starter job with a university degree on sub 20K in the last 10 years in my view you were underpaid.

It was fairly standard among everyone I knew.
this was 2010. I think it's 23k now for new entrants.

The "that's the way it was when I started" is one of the lousiest arguments in favour of doing nothing. If we operated on that premise, junior doctors would be dead from over work, women would still be marriage barred. Just because it's the way things were done in the past is not a good reason - if it's a bad thing - to continue on in the future.

I'm just saying that's the way it is. I didn't starve, 22 and 1500 a month, 500 on rent 500 on food and incidentals and 500 on booze and going out.

it'd be different if you had a family to support I suppose..... but people should think about that before they make life decisions like that.

IN the meantime we would not have to do this if accommodation in Dublin was reasonably priced. Until it is, 21KE on any job starter or not is a road to penury.

I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

Glenster

the message to COs is simple.

the job is not amazingly paid.

If you think you can do better in the private sector please go for it, there are 27000 people who'd take your place.

Calina

Glenster wrote: »

It was fairly standard among everyone I knew.
this was 2010. I think it's 23k now for new entrants.


I'm just saying that's the way it is. I didn't starve, 22 and 1500 a month, 500 on rent 500 on food and incidentals and 500 on booze and going out.

it'd be different if you had a family to support I suppose..... but people should think about that before they make life decisions like that.



I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo.

Assume that some people were unemployed and had families to support and actually had reasonable paying jobs before a recession came along and made a mess of everything. Anyone grown up will tell you that a period of unemployment can be hard to overcome when looking for a replacement job. The assumption that this only affects 22 year olds is wrong.

Calina

Glenster wrote: »

I'm positive you can still share within 5 miles of the city centre for 500 euros. (I was in the ifsc, but I'm sure those days are gone)

I lived on my own in Brussels on a starter salary. Because I could. And I could in Dublin when I graduated as well.

The simple fact is as a society you are putting up with paying more and more for less and less if you're a consumer, and paying less and less for more and more if you're an employer.

MouseTail

Calina wrote: »

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo
.

That comparison is worthless, CO is not a grad job or grade. No-one, including the Unions wanted to make it a grad job.

Glenster

Calina wrote: »

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo

tbh it's fairly standard for finance. we were all doing our acas/cfas/six sigmas aswell.

it's just different structures for different jobs. our salary doubled in three years, and our goal was to double it again in another 5 years.

And keep in mind that statistics for grad salaries don't take into account the 50% of graduates who get traditionally non-graduate jobs.

that said, facebook have at least 4 graduate jobs in ireland starting at 56k + 35k starting bonus + share options, but I think only one irish guy got one this year.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

True in the post recession period, absolutely not the case now.

Huge advancement opportunities, CO to AO and HEO in one go now quite common. And yes, down in part to the quality of new CO recruits but all the more reinforcement that the CO grade is a starter grade where you can choose to advance or not, and salaries reflective of this.

Could you quantify 'huge' please? How many promotional posts are available?

doc22 wrote: »

Disability income supplement? If you're working full time earning a decent wage what income support would one need over a non Disabled person? What extra cost does one have?

In the region of €10k to €15k a year;

http://www.thejournal.ie/disabled-people-better-deal-collective-bargaining-power-life-2177577-Jun2015/

noodler

Calina wrote: »

23KE is low imo.

Appropriate imo.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Could you quantify 'huge' please? How many promotional posts are available?

I don't have access to figures, sorry.

Since 2014 I would think there's been internal, interdepartmental and open comps for EO and HEO every year in my workplace or via publicjobs. AO comps externally but on an annual basis too. EO and HEO ICT comps.

These are extensive panels, the last AO has recruited well over the hundred now the last I checked, so it's not just one job up for grabs each time.

So, hundreds of promotional opportunities each year for COs isn't an exaggeration.

That's discounting competitions for specific roles, but they suck in fairness.

AndrewJRenko

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have access to figures, sorry.

Since 2014 I would think there's been internal, interdepartmental and open comps for EO and HEO every year in my workplace or via publicjobs. AO comps externally but on an annual basis too. EO and HEO ICT comps.

These are extensive panels, the last AO has recruited well over the hundred now the last I checked, so it's not just one job up for grabs each time.

So, hundreds of promotional opportunities each year for COs isn't an exaggeration.

That's discounting competitions for specific roles, but they suck in fairness.

So hundreds of opportunities for how-many thousand COs?

noodler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So hundreds of opportunities for how-many thousand COs?

Pretty good rate.

Annually as well.

Technocentral

I know COs trying for years who haven't progressed, anyways it doesn't tackle the poor pay for COs as is the OPs original point, the CO position itself has changed so much that the salary needs to reflect that. Saying get another job doesn't solve that underlying inequity.

noodler

Technocentral wrote: »

I know COs trying for years who haven't progressed, anyways it doesn't tackle the poor pay for COs as is the OPs original point, the CO position itself has changed so much that the salary needs to reflect that. Saying get another job doesn't solve that underlying inequity.

The pay is commensurate with the role.

Technocentral

noodler wrote:

The pay is commensurate with the role.

In your opinion only.

noodler

Technocentral wrote: »

In your opinion only.

Mine, the number of applicants, historically, whatever you like.

Its an entry level job occupied by people, in the main, with no third level qualifications.

Sure why not give everyone on the dole 300 a week, tough to live on 190.

Donal55

noodler wrote: »

The pay is commensurate with the role.

Surely, if the role has changed for the entry level CO, :then it has also changed for those further up the food chain.

And those grades should also seek a commensurate pay increase.

AndrewJRenko

noodler wrote: »

Pretty good rate.

Annually as well.

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

noodler

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

The poster mentioned hundreds of promotional opportunities, this makes sense with the AO and EO annual campaigns running annually.

Donal55

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Really, I've no idea how you can say 'pretty good rate' when you can't quote a number.

Apart from the 'stickys', there are 10 threads on this forum and 6 of those threads are advertising COs of all grades.

I'd say its safe to say that its a 'pretty good rate.'

AndrewJRenko

noodler wrote: »

The poster mentioned hundreds of promotional opportunities, this makes sense with the AO and EO annual campaigns running annually.

Donal55 wrote: »

Apart from the 'stickys', there are 10 threads on this forum and 6 of those threads are advertising COs of all grades.

I'd say its safe to say that its a 'pretty good rate.'

Hundreds of vacancies for how many existing COs?

Technocentral

noodler wrote:

Sure why not give everyone on the dole 300 a week, tough to live on 190.

They aren't working, that's why not!!

noodler

Technocentral wrote: »

They aren't working, that's why not!!

Right, so your charity begins and ends with COs.

Its an entry level position, the pay is commensurate with the role, there is plenty of demand at that wage and after a few years is even overpaid relative to the private sector according to the CSO analysis done in March.

Technocentral

noodler wrote:

Right, so your charity begins and ends with COs.

Firstly, the topic is CO salaries, secondly I know the modern CO role I don't know every other job in Ireland that's how I can comment on salary deficiency and thirdly no one in their right mind would think that people not working should get paid almost as much as someone with a very responsible job.

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

Its an entry level job occupied by people, in the main, with no third level qualifications.

Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

noodler

The_Conductor wrote: »

Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

I said "in the main".

I have no reason to believe recent recruitment has impacted on the total level to the extent where that does not hold true.


Not really the relevant point anyway as it is not required.

Glenster

The_Conductor wrote: »

Almost 80% of recent COs do have third level qualifications- it may not be a requirement for the role- but they do hold them...... Its not accurate to suggest they don't.

The point is that there is no 'requirement' for a third level qualification.

A girl started in my place as a HR generalist last week with an MBA. It doesn't mean that you have to have an MBA to be a HR generalist.

Arcade_Tryer

Glenster wrote: »

The point is that there is no 'requirement' for a third level qualification.

A girl started in my place as a HR generalist last week with an MBA. It doesn't mean that you have to have an MBA to be a HR generalist.

Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.

noodler

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.

Nope.

AO and EO require a third level degree.

AO in particular has always been graduate.


And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.

doc22

noodler wrote: »

Nope.

AO and EO require a third level degree.

AO in particular has always been graduate.


And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.

wrong

Arcade_Tryer

noodler wrote: »

Nope.

AO and EO require a third level degree.

AO in particular has always been graduate.


And loads of jobs require a third level qualification.

The point being made is, for most entry level, graduate and mid tier jobs, a degree is a "requirement", but the job itself does not require a degree. It puts the argument concerning a degree not being a "requirement" for the position of Clerical Officer into perspective. And hence why there is a stringent, and testing, application process.

doc22

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

The point being made is, for most entry level, graduate and mid tier jobs, a degree is a "requirement", but the job itself does not require a degree. It puts the argument concerning a degree not being a "requirement" for the position of Clerical Officer into perspective. And hence why there is a stringent, and testing, application process.

There isn't a "a stringent, and testing, application process". You do a low level verbal/numeric test and pass a basic interview and assigned a position based on your number on a list.

Arcade_Tryer

doc22 wrote: »

There isn't a "a stringent, and testing, application process". You do a low level verbal/numeric test and pass a basic interview and assigned a position based on your number on a list.

The numerical part is easy. The verbal part, given the time limit, is very difficult to score highly on. And remember, you have to perform these tests twice, both supervised and unsupervised. That is quite stringent. Plus you then have to pass the interview, which is admittedly straightforward, but even then you are only potentially in line for a position.

Glenster

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Hold on a minute, very few jobs "require" a third level qualification, even if a lot of jobs have a third level "requirement". It is simply a screening process, the same way you say the different stages in the Civil Service application process are. At least they measure ability against the rest of the applicants, and not some grade inflated college course! There is a lot of hypocrisy here and changing arguments to suit a certain narrative.

I actually don't know what you're talking about mate.

If they wont give you a job without a third level qualification its a requirement for the job quotation marks or no.

The only point I made about 11 million posts back was that level of competition is not solely a function of the number of applicants.

So just because 27000 people apply to be a CO and they choose the best 200 doesn't mean that those 200 are absolutely amazing because the cat and his mother can apply.

Whereas for graduate jobs in the private sector that may be paid more there may be fewer applicants, but the level of applicants in general is higher because of increased restrictions on who can apply.

Arcade_Tryer

Glenster wrote: »

I actually don't know what you're talking about mate.

If they wont give you a job without a third level qualification its a requirement for the job quotation marks or no.

Apologies, I'll explain. There is a difference between a job "requirement" in terms of those who can apply, and a job that "requires" a degree to perform the daily duties of the role. The majority of graduate level jobs have a degree as a requirement for applicants for example, but the majority of them will tell you, if honest, that they did not really require a degree to learn and progress in the position. A degree is simply another screening process for the vast majority of jobs.

Glenster

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Apologies, I'll explain. There is a difference between a job "requirement" in terms of those who can apply, and a job that "requires" a degree to perform the daily duties of the role. The majority of graduate level jobs have a degree as a requirement for applicants for example, but the majority of them will tell you, if honest, that they did not really require a degree to learn and progress in the position. A degree is simply another screening process for the vast majority of jobs.

For the life of me I cant imagine a job that you couldn't theoretically 'do' without a specific degree.

Doctor? But you can get graduate entry by doing any degree there too....

So I don't really get your point.

noodler

I think AOs should get a 15k increase in their starting salary so they can live a graduate lifestyle in Dublin.

EOs should get 10k increase as well since they need to be warning significantly more than the COs they manage.

Arcade_Tryer

Glenster wrote: »

For the life of me I cant imagine a job that you couldn't theoretically 'do' without a specific degree.

Doctor? But you can get graduate entry by doing any degree there too....

So I don't really get your point.

A degree requirement is merely a box ticking exercise. It's a screening process in the same way as the aptitude tests for the CO positions are. Yet the argument being put forward here is that because a degree isn't a requirement for CO positions, jobs with a degree as a requirement deserve to be higher paid.

Arcade_Tryer

noodler wrote: »

I think AOs should get a 15k increase in their starting salary so they can live a graduate lifestyle in Dublin.

EOs should get 10k increase as well since they need to be warning significantly more than the COs they manage.

You're revealing yourself now.

The_Conductor

doc22 wrote: »

wrong

Technically you're correct that an EO does not require a degree- however- all EO competitions are now handled by the graduate recruitment unit- in an identical manner to the AO competitions- complete with presentation of your qualifications and verification with the universities and other 3rd level institutions (including final degree transcripts etc).

I.e. its a defacto requirement- and is fully expected of external candidates- some internal candidates may get promotion to EO (or indeed an upgrade to EO- as all the SOs have done)- without a degree- however, this will become exceptional rather than the norm in future.

Its the new norm.

doc22

The_Conductor wrote: »

Technically you're correct that an EO does not require a degree- however- all EO competitions are now handled by the graduate recruitment unit- in an identical manner to the AO competitions- complete with presentation of your qualifications and verification with the universities and other 3rd level institutions (including final degree transcripts etc).

I.e. its a defacto requirement- and is fully expected of external candidates- some internal candidates may get promotion to EO (or indeed an upgrade to EO- as all the SOs have done)- without a degree- however, this will become exceptional rather than the norm in future.

Its the new norm.

It's only more verification, there's no requirement to have a degree. Unless at interview they mark you down under skills competency I can't see how it would make a difference ?. Most CO should have a degree with the relatively generous civil service educational support anyway.

noodler

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

You're revealing yourself now.

In the sense that??

Glenster

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

A degree requirement is merely a box ticking exercise. It's a screening process in the same way as the aptitude tests for the CO positions are. Yet the argument being put forward here is that because a degree isn't a requirement for CO positions, jobs with a degree as a requirement deserve to be higher paid.

A degree isn't a requirement for CO positions because the people who create the roles looked at the type of work COs would be doing and determined that it wasn't up to 3rd level education spec.

A degree is a requirement for other jobs because they look at the type of work that is being done/type of person required and determine that a degree is required.

Salaries follow on from that. Not the other way around.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

There are a not insignificant number of people taking posts- turning up for a few days- and then just not turning up any longer- without any explanation being given. Its pretty endemic at the CO grade- less an issue- but still happening with EOs and AOs.

Clearly the orientation for newcomers is very poor.

mzn

FIS is very little money
To get it you have :

Work 38 or more hours per fortnight (any combination of hours that reaches 38 hours each fortnight is acceptable). You can combine your weekly hours with your spouse, civil partner, cohabitant's hours to meet this condition. You cannot use time spent in self-employment (or on Community Employment, Gateway, Tús, JobBridge or the Rural Social Scheme) to meet this condition.
Where the employment is likely to last at least 3 months
Have one or more children who normally live with you and
Earn less than an amount set according to your family size

Read Here :
social_welfare_payments_to_families_and_children/family_income_supplement.html


FIS income limits in 2017
If you have: And your weekly family income is less than:
One child €511
Two children €612
Three children €713
Four children €834
Five children €960
Six children €1,076
Seven children €1,212
Eight children €1,308

mzn

Calina wrote: »

Actually, for a lot of grad salaries now it's around 27-30K. I've also made the point further up the thread somewhere that in 2014 at least MS had a grad salary in tech of 40KE.

23KE is low imo.

Assume that some people were unemployed and had families to support and actually had reasonable paying jobs before a recession came along and made a mess of everything. Anyone grown up will tell you that a period of unemployment can be hard to overcome when looking for a replacement job. The assumption that this only affects 22 year olds is wrong.

Very true . i'd totally agree with you.