€300M Investment into Waterford City

Dexpat

imacman wrote: »

This highlights the risks of retail element of the North Quays development.

It does, but it makes getting the retail element in the NQ right even more important, rather than necessarily downscaling it. The traditional high street model of retailing is on its last legs. The virus will accellerate the changes.

Online shopping will obviously be a huge part of it, but destination shopping with niche barnds and products that people like to see and feel, as well giving people an experience and a chance to relax, eat in a pleasent environment will be what is important. The NQ development has been based on these trends so I think it actually makes it more viable/necessary.

If you look at the sales per sq.m in traditional shops, for most retailers it has been falling, but many will still need physical shops. People still want to see certain types of product before ordering online. A lot of retailers have found closing physical stores in an area leads to lower online sales. There will always be a balancing act.

Debenhams closing is a big blow for the city centre alright. It will be very tough on those loosing their jobs. One this is certain, if you were to come back in 10 years to any city centre in Ireland or elsewhere they will look very different than today.

JohnC.

dzilla wrote: »

That is going to leave some void in the city center. City Square may partition the store into 3/4 units however and have bigger square footage for some of the shops that need bigger units that the ones on offer.

City Square don't own that part of the building. Same with Dunnes. I'm pretty sure Roches (of Roches Stores) still retained ownership of their old shops, including this one, with Debenhams being a tenant, rather than Debenhams outright buying the old Roches Stores premises.

Motivator

Anyone who ever thought this North Quays dream was a good idea need to have a rethink. The council have let the city centre bleed out for years and now there’s another store closed that employed north of 100 local people. There is literally nothing left in the city centre now. The council should put their focus on trying to kickstart things in town rather than focusing on a vanity project that is simply never, ever going to happen.

When I think of that muppet John Cummins on the radio talking about how he feels Waterford “is on the cusp of something great” it actually boils my blood. He couldn’t give a **** about Waterford, he cares about attaching his name to an apparent game changer for the city, same as all the rest of them. No retailer is going to take on the massive space that Debenhams had, what is it in total? 30,000 sq ft? The knock on effects of this will be huge for lots of people. It’s very sad and all I can do is feel sorry for the staff and their families. M&S are the only brand capable of taking on a space that large and they’re in trouble too so they won’t be diving in.

Maybe another Penny’s or a flagship Mr. Price? 🙄

azimuth17

[PHP][/PHP]

Motivator wrote: »

Anyone who ever thought this North Quays dream was a good idea need to have a rethink. The council have let the city centre bleed out for years and now there’s another store closed that employed north of 100 local people. There is literally nothing left in the city centre now. The council should put their focus on trying to kickstart things in town rather than focusing on a vanity project that is simply never, ever going to happen.

When I think of that muppet John Cummins on the radio talking about how he feels Waterford “is on the cusp of something great” it actually boils my blood. He couldn’t give a **** about Waterford, he cares about attaching his name to an apparent game changer for the city, same as all the rest of them. No retailer is going to take on the massive space that Debenhams had, what is it in total? 30,000 sq ft? The knock on effects of this will be huge for lots of people. It’s very sad and all I can do is feel sorry for the staff and their families. M&S are the only brand capable of taking on a space that large and they’re in trouble too so they won’t be diving in.

Maybe another Penny’s or a flagship Mr. Price? ��

I can understand your frustration and share your feeling for staff at Debenhams at this time, but you are rather unfairly conflating the BC world view with your own AC forecast. No one knows what the retail scene will look like AC

decies

azimuth17 wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]
I can understand your frustration and share your feeling for staff at Debenhams at this time, but you are rather unfairly conflating the BC world view with your own AC forecast. No one knows what the retail scene will look like AC

Unrecognisable is the word you’re looking for . Admit it unless normality in retail returns by early May it will too late fir a huge amount of Waterford shops , many themselves were saying business was poor before this even started .When they do open up the unemployment rate is going to be at least 3 times it was back in February so disposable income is shot .

azimuth17

decies wrote: »

Unrecognisable is the word you’re looking for . Admit it unless normality in retail returns by early May it will too late fir a huge amount of Waterford shops , many themselves were saying business was poor before this even started .

I would be under no illusions about the threat posed to retail everywhere by the CV. Many on social media seemed to think that BC retail difficulties only applied to Waterford, but anyone who traveled around the country could hear stories even in Dublin, about difficult trading conditions. Debenhams are making 2000 people redundant across the country. As i said no one knows what the AC retail world will be like. All is changed, changed utterly, as someone once said.

imacman

Motivator wrote: »

Anyone who ever thought this North Quays dream was a good idea need to have a rethink. The council have let the city centre bleed out for years and now there’s another store closed that employed north of 100 local people. There is literally nothing left in the city centre now. The council should put their focus on trying to kickstart things in town rather than focusing on a vanity project that is simply never, ever going to happen.

When I think of that muppet John Cummins on the radio talking about how he feels Waterford “is on the cusp of something great” it actually boils my blood. He couldn’t give a **** about Waterford, he cares about attaching his name to an apparent game changer for the city, same as all the rest of them. No retailer is going to take on the massive space that Debenhams had, what is it in total? 30,000 sq ft? The knock on effects of this will be huge for lots of people. It’s very sad and all I can do is feel sorry for the staff and their families. M&S are the only brand capable of taking on a space that large and they’re in trouble too so they won’t be diving in.

Maybe another Penny’s or a flagship Mr. Price? 🙄

I always thought the whole idea that people where going to get the train from Dublin and everywhere in between to go shopping inthe north Quays was delusional .It seems even more so today.

Wanderer78

Where's rob cass in all of this, what's his opinions?

alta stare

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Where's rob cass in all of this, what's his opinions?

How dare you question this spoo....sorry man.

Deiseen

Why oh why do we keep focusing on British retailers when retail is struggling so badly in the UK.

These British retailers are failing all the time and they are just leaving holes in Irish towns and cities when our retail is doing better.

We should be looking elsewhere. Might involve deviating a little bit from British fashion trends but there are retailers there with money to be used.

People saying to give up on the North Quays are delided. Nobody wants to come to dead and lifeless Waterford now as it is. It needs a revolution and its not going to get that with it's current city centre. Not only do we need to bring in outsiders but we need to keep our own people shopping here. Which is difficult because clearly nobody wants to do that. We need a total rebrand of the city to get people's interests and the North Quays offers that.

alta stare

Deiseen wrote: »

Why oh why do we keep focusing on British retailers when retail is struggling so badly in the UK.

These British retailers are failing all the time and they are just leaving holes in Irish towns and cities when our retail is doing better.

We should be looking elsewhere. Might involve deviating a little bit from British fashion trends but there are retailers there with money to be used.

People saying to give up on the North Quays are delided. Nobody wants to come to dead and lifeless Waterford now as it is. It needs a revolution and its not going to get that with it's current city centre. Not only do we need to bring in outsiders but we need to keep our own people shopping here. Which is difficult because clearly nobody wants to do that. We need a total rebrand of the city to get people's interests and the North Quays offers that.

All retailers are struggling not just British ones.

What retailers do you think needs to come in and why do you think they are immune to failure?

dzilla

BBM77 wrote: »

Now that I think about it, I was in Debenhams in Waterford, Cork and Dublin at different times and they were all quite. Part of the problem with the likes of Debenhams and M&S is they have become stale and have not adapted to the age of internet shopping. The likes of Penneys and Zara are booming both having strong internet and physical stores.

+1, I think they put a big push in the last 18 months on becoming more online based and mixing this with the high street. They began offering click and collect and free returns to store. I think it might have been too little too late however. They carried more premium brands online but not in store. I think offerings they had instore in Waterford at least where poor, red herring/ mantarray etc just never did it for me anyway. Always thought such a department store should be focused on more premium brands like Arnotts in Dublin do.

imacman wrote: »

This highlights the risks of retail element of the North Quays development.

Yeah definitely, its a national issue more than a Waterford issue really, the high street is under threat.

JohnC. wrote: »

City Square don't own that part of the building. Same with Dunnes. I'm pretty sure Roches (of Roches Stores) still retained ownership of their old shops, including this one, with Debenhams being a tenant, rather than Debenhams outright buying the old Roches Stores premises.

Yes you are right, at the time Roches kept ownership of the property as per -
https://www.rte.ie/archives/2016/0726/804939-roches-stores-sell-to-debenhams/

dzilla

I wonder could the unit be split and partitioned up more putting units/shopfronts facing onto Bakehouse lane and lady lane. Be a massive job all the same.

sillysocks

I wonder would Dunnes be interested , maybe even in the top floor if it could be split. They could move their other unit from outsideCitySq and have it almost consolidated and the upstairs have the link bridge.
Would still leave an empty unit where Dunnes was though.

One of the big issues in Waterford is no decent shopping centre. Even if all the units of city square were full the units are too small for decent shops, and the whole building is old. So chicken and egg then because there’s not a decent shopping ‘experience’ so the footfall falls and then bigger shops won’t open because the footfall is bad.
Not sure how it gets resolved. I’m a big fan of some of the small locally owned shops, their customer service nearly always trumps the bigger stores, but I do think we need a good mix of bigger chain stores and locally owned shops. They both can compliment each other if done well.

JohnC.

From what I hear, the premises is in a bit of a state. You've probably seen the crates for collecting water at some of the doors. And that's just the publicly visible part of its problems. I hear a lot of work needs to be done.

Hoffmans

I forsee the north quays skyline not changing anytime soon at least not in this decade

friendlyfun

Suppose the Cafe upstairs will now be gone too?

JohnC.

friendlyfun wrote: »

Suppose the Cafe upstairs will now be gone too?

Of course. Everything is gone.

hardybuck

alta stare wrote: »

All retailers are struggling not just British ones.

What retailers do you think needs to come in and why do you think they are immune to failure?

In terms of Irish stores who aren't in Waterford, would like to see a Kilkenny shop, Avoca and Magee Menswear. Maybe a Best Menswear. Brown Thomas would be on the wishlist.

In terms of international brands would also like the Body Shop. Gant. Massimo Dutti. Office. Schuh. Superdry.

In terms of retailers already in Waterford who could go into City Square, any of the larger electrical retailers currently out on the retail parks could be enticed into town. This is where I think the Council need to encourage footfall back into town.

Similarly TX Maxx might like to get in there. Maybe Ardkeen might have the future ambition to move into the next level and have a Fallon and Byrne or Avoca type offering of food and retail.

Deiseen

hardybuck wrote: »

In terms of Irish stores who aren't in Waterford, would like to see a Kilkenny shop, Avoca and Magee Menswear. Maybe a Best Menswear. Brown Thomas would be on the wishlist.

In terms of international brands would also like the Body Shop. Gant. Massimo Dutti. Office. Schuh. Superdry.

In terms of retailers already in Waterford who could go into City Square, any of the larger electrical retailers currently out on the retail parks could be enticed into town. This is where I think the Council need to encourage footfall back into town.

Similarly TX Maxx might like to get in there. Maybe Ardkeen might have the future ambition to move into the next level and have a Fallon and Byrne or Avoca type offering of food and retail.

TK Maxx would actually be perfect for that store but assuming they have a significant amount of time left on their current lease.

Could they also extend the flooring out on the first floor and allow the shop to be split into two?

Deiseen

alta stare wrote: »

All retailers are struggling not just British ones.

What retailers do you think needs to come in and why do you think they are immune to failure?

Retail growth is 2%+ in every European country except for us (think this was a blip but also coming from a low base), Spain, Switzerland and UK.

Off the top of my head, Hollister and H&M. Different stores to Debenhams but maybe those type of stores are dead. That's why they should explore the idea of splitting it into two floors and trying to make City square a proper two floor shopping centre. Unsure how viable this is.

Also someone said about getting shop fronts out onto the street. This was a planning failure by Waterford City Council and should have been a condition for the shopping centre.

alta stare

Deiseen wrote: »

Retail growth is 2%+ in every European country except for us (think this was a blip but also coming from a low base), Spain, Switzerland and UK.

Off the top of my head, Hollister and H&M. Different stores to Debenhams but maybe those type of stores are dead. That's why they should explore the idea of splitting it into two floors and trying to make City square a proper two floor shopping centre. Unsure how viable this is.

Also someone said about getting shop fronts out onto the street. This was a planning failure by Waterford City Council and should have been a condition for the shopping centre.

Maybe we just dont do shopping like the continent.

Again i ask what non British shops do you think we need here? We have predominantly vBritish shops here because we are very similar to them. We usually mirror anything they do. If they struggle over there they will struggle here and usually in that scenario the Irish stores are the ones at threat of closure. Close all Irish stores first and it saves them millions and they have no problem doing this because it isnt worth trying to prop up a struggling business in a relatively small economy.


Covid19 might just spell the end for many businesses and their origin, location or nationality means nothing. If things continue on as is then these shops wont have any North Quays to go into. That isn't negativity its reality.

Deiseen

alta stare wrote: »

Maybe we just dont do shopping like the continent.

Again i ask what non British shops do you think we need here? We have predominantly vBritish shops here because we are very similar to them. We usually mirror anything they do. If they struggle over there they will struggle here and usually in that scenario the Irish stores are the ones at threat of closure. Close all Irish stores first and it saves them millions and they have no problem doing this because it isnt worth trying to prop up a struggling business in a relatively small economy.


Covid19 might just spell the end for many businesses and their origin, location or nationality means nothing. If things continue on as is then these shops wont have any North Quays to go into. That isn't negativity its reality.

I named two. Hollister and H&M, both none British.

alta stare

hardybuck wrote: »

In terms of Irish stores who aren't in Waterford, would like to see a Kilkenny shop, Avoca and Magee Menswear. Maybe a Best Menswear. Brown Thomas would be on the wishlist.

In terms of international brands would also like the Body Shop. Gant. Massimo Dutti. Office. Schuh. Superdry.

In terms of retailers already in Waterford who could go into City Square, any of the larger electrical retailers currently out on the retail parks could be enticed into town. This is where I think the Council need to encourage footfall back into town.

Similarly TX Maxx might like to get in there. Maybe Ardkeen might have the future ambition to move into the next level and have a Fallon and Byrne or Avoca type offering of food and retail.

Browne Thomas would be a store which would do well here id imagine.

I welcome any store opening here so lets hope they come.

Yeah im sure TK Maxx would love to be situated there.

alta stare

Deiseen wrote: »

I named two. Hollister and H&M, both none British.

Correct me if i am wrong but weren't Hollister in financial trouble recently enough.

Deiseen

alta stare wrote: »

Correct me if i am wrong but weren't Hollister in financial trouble recently enough.

Probably, but I know H and M do well. I'm just giving examples to get us away from this British dependency.

alta stare

Deiseen wrote: »

Probably, but I know H and M do well. I'm just giving examples to get us away from this British dependency.

Yeah they did alright. Although now their business is growing they have closed stores before. Below is an article from 2018.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/abercrombie-and-fitch-hollister-stores-closing-2018-3%3famp

Just to add so have H&M.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune.com/2019/08/11/hm-zara-store-closing/amp/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/fashion/h-m-to-close-170-stores-this-year-1.3376465?mode=amp

You see British stores are not the only ones who suffer and are forced to close some of their stores. I welcome any store coming into our city regardless of where they are from but lets not kid ourselves and think they wont close here if they have to in order to save other stores. They would be gone in a heartbeat as evident with the announcement about Debenhams.

Motivator

alta stare wrote: »

Browne Thomas would be a store which would do well here id imagine.

I welcome any store opening here so lets hope they come.

Yeah im sure TK Maxx would love to be situated there.

Brown Thomas? Are you on drugs? The busiest retail outlet in Waterford is Pennys and there’s a reason. No high end shop has ever done well in Waterford. Pamela Scott and Tommy Hilfiger are two that spring to mind. One closed and the other has never ever been busy, I’m not sure how they’re still open. If you think of the most expensive retail outlets in Ireland would even think about coming to Waterford you haven’t the slightest idea about the city.

There’s no jobs in the city, there’s no money in the city. That’s the bottom line unfortunately. People need to face facts instead of saying everything is grand. It isn’t grand, the city has been dying for years and the City Council are 100% the ones are to blame.

BBM77

Motivator wrote: »

Brown Thomas? Are you on drugs? The busiest retail outlet in Waterford is Pennys and there’s a reason. No high end shop has ever done well in Waterford. Pamela Scott and Tommy Hilfiger are two that spring to mind. One closed and the other has never ever been busy, I’m not sure how they’re still open. If you think of the most expensive retail outlets in Ireland would even think about coming to Waterford you haven’t the slightest idea about the city.

There’s no jobs in the city, there’s no money in the city. That’s the bottom line unfortunately. People need to face facts instead of saying everything is grand. It isn’t grand, the city has been dying for years and the City Council are 100% the ones are to blame.

Reading this post I know how Jesus felt on Good Friday. Reading it is literally painful.

azimuth17

Motivator wrote: »

Brown Thomas? Are you on drugs? The busiest retail outlet in Waterford is Pennys and there’s a reason. No high end shop has ever done well in Waterford. Pamela Scott and Tommy Hilfiger are two that spring to mind. One closed and the other has never ever been busy, I’m not sure how they’re still open. If you think of the most expensive retail outlets in Ireland would even think about coming to Waterford you haven’t the slightest idea about the city.

There’s no jobs in the city, there’s no money in the city. That’s the bottom line unfortunately. People need to face facts instead of saying everything is grand. It isn’t grand, the city has been dying for years and the City Council are 100% the ones are to blame.

That's a pretty stark assessment and may not be fully accurate. Would it be fair to ask if its coloured by where you live or where you work or previously worked, or the people you talk to? City is physically, socially and economically divided. That is obvious to anyone who drives around. Adding UHW, WIT, Bausch and Lomb, Sanofi, TEVA, and a few others together plus council and staff for 35 or more schools together there must be nearly 8/10,000 people in decent employment. Their money is not being spent in town? Maybe the urban ambience is not what they want? The size of the grocery market, just think of the number of food outlets, gives some indication of the deficit in comparison spending. It was this deficit and spending leakage to other areas that prompted North Quays in first instance. WIT SEEM figures do suggest that general disposable income is lower than national average, but averages are just that, averages. I don't think everything is grand by the way. We have real problems of attracting investment which need a political solution which has not been forthcoming in past decade.