€300M Investment into Waterford City

Wanderer78

friendlyfun wrote: »

The comments on facebook about this project are attrocious. Some people saying "Not another empty shopping centre" even though there is going to be many offices too

you can understand the comments to a degree, but this does look like an extremely impressive project, was just on the one news there now

Harry Palmr

Talking about it on RTE radio news now. Michael Walsh talking.

PTH2009

won't be content til I see diggers over there

Same with the redevelopment of Walsh Park

Wanderer78

6 1 there now

Harry Palmr

Just a moment which is all we're worth down here!

Waterford needs to hammer home the shovel ready/regeneration/pump prime angle constantly.

Wanderer78

have they given a breakdown of the jobs that will be created?

alta stare

Great news for the city. Hopefully the government dont drag their heels with this and lets hope the impending financial impact from this covid19 wont kill it either.

Johnboy1951

alta stare wrote: »

Great news for the city. Hopefully the government dont drag their heels with this and lets hope the impending financial impact from this covid19 wont kill it either.

I'm hoping covid impact might encourage the gov to move quickly ..... infrastructure investment; employment during build and long term employment afterwards.

alta stare

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I'm hoping covid impact might encourage the gov to move quickly ..... infrastructure investment; employment during build and long term employment afterwards.

Lets hope so.

vriesmays

Proposed bus service from the new Michael Street SC to the new bridge so people can continue shopping across the river. Who thought out this nonsense.

JohnC.

That shuttle bus has always been part of it, Debbie Downer.

imacman

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you can understand the comments to a degree, but this does look like an extremely impressive project, was just on the one news there now

I have three real concerns I have about the North Quays as a development.
Number one is the retail element and how reliant is the project on getting large department stores and other retailers to setup there.Is the project a viable entity if that doesn't happen.
As we have seen even before Covid bricks and mortar stores were under pressure and that is only going to increase now. Is a 2 new shopping centers ( im including the Micheal street development which is part of this package) viable in Waterford when you have the city square with a massive unit empty after Debenhams closing and the other large new unit at the front still without an occupant.

Also included in the plans is a massive new cinema , can Wateford sustain three cinema , I dont think so which plays into my other concern which is the division of the city , if the north quays does become a shopping,residental and entertainment destination it can only hurt the city center which is struggling already.

Concern number three is the office space , there has been a lot of talk about how this space is going to draw big companies out of Dublin to setup offices in Waterford. Again pre-covid that may have worked but the move to large scale working from home has changed that whole landscape. I read in the paper last week that many companies in Dublin are downsizing their offices and pulling out of moves to new buildings as they let more people work from home and need less actual space.This is especially prevalent in the IT companies but lots of other sectors are moving that way too.That is a massive threat to the viability of the office space in the development

I dont want to be a downer on the project but these are legitimate concerns especially facing into the inevitable post covid recession .This looks like a boom time project and there are plenty of celtic tiger examples of these types of projects that ran into trouble when the recession hit.It seems to me that Waterord people are so desperate for some investment they are happy to close their eyes and hope for the best when it comes to this project

Harry Palmr

You build for the boom during recession.

hardybuck

It's very clear that the North Quays development poses a significant threat to the city centre - if not done correctly. This has been discussed in the thread before.

Waterford suffers from many things, but a lack of a concentrated core of shops, pubs and restaurants is certainly one of them. It's too spread out as it is and the whole area is empty after the shops close in the evening.

The Council should be trying to ensure that the shops who enter North Quays are mainly retail offerings which support the offices and residential apartments over there and in Ferrybank. Anything else really jeopardises the future of the existing city centre.

The Council should also be formulating plans to increase residential development and footfall in the existing city centre areas to counteract the exodus of people once the shops close in the evening too.

Harry Palmr

The City centre needs to be inhabited and turned from a 9-5 location. Rob Cass has always talked about "living over the shop" and there's plenty spaces that can be applied to.

Michael Street needs to be less about retail brand names and more about social space with added value.

imacman

friendlyfun wrote: »

The comments on facebook about this project are attrocious. Some people saying "Not another empty shopping centre" even though there is going to be many offices too

Office space that wont be needed after massive increase of home working during Covid 19 and the trend of moving away from traditional office that will continue going forward

DubToDeise

imacman wrote: »

I have two real concerns I have about the North Quays as a development.
Number one is the retail element and how reliant is the project on getting large department stores and other retailers to setup there.Is the project a viable entity if that doesn't happen.
As we have seen even before Covid bricks and mortar stores were under pressure and that is only going to increase now. Is a 2 new shopping centers ( im including the Micheal street development which is part of this package) viable in Waterford when you have the city square with a massive unit empty after Debenhams closing and the other large new unit at the front still without an occupant.

Also included in the plans is a massive new cinema , can Wateford sustain three cinema , I dont think so which plays into my other concern which is the division of the city , if the north quays does become a shopping and entertainment destination it can only hurt the city center which is struggling already.

I dont want to be a downer on the project but these are legitimate concerns especially facing into the inevitable post covid recession .This looks like a boom time project and there are plenty of celtic tiger examples of these types of projects that ran into trouble when the recession hit.

I think its important to note the difference between a traditional shopping centre works and the system operated by Fawaz Al Hokair. While they'll probably rent some of the units out, they're not dependent on it. They have a portfolio of brands that they can utilise, kind of like franchises. They could open a Zara in their centre and operate it themselves under licence.

hardybuck

In fairness I think we should put Rob Cass to one side for the moment. He isn't the Patron Saint of Waterford, but is someone who is working very hard to get a development project he's involved with over the line.

The Council are the custodians of the North Quays project and have a responsibility to the City generally. Hopefully they get this one right.

BBM77

imacman wrote: »

I have three real concerns I have about the North Quays as a development.
Number one is the retail element and how reliant is the project on getting large department stores and other retailers to setup there.Is the project a viable entity if that doesn't happen.
As we have seen even before Covid bricks and mortar stores were under pressure and that is only going to increase now. Is a 2 new shopping centers ( im including the Micheal street development which is part of this package) viable in Waterford when you have the city square with a massive unit empty after Debenhams closing and the other large new unit at the front still without an occupant.

Also included in the plans is a massive new cinema , can Wateford sustain three cinema , I dont think so which plays into my other concern which is the division of the city , if the north quays does become a shopping,residental and entertainment destination it can only hurt the city center which is struggling already.

Concern number three is the office space , there has been a lot of talk about how this space is going to draw big companies out of Dublin to setup offices in Waterford. Again pre-covid that may have worked but the move to large scale working from home has changed that whole landscape. I read in the paper last week that many companies in Dublin are downsizing their offices and pulling out of moves to new buildings as they let more people work from home and need less actual space.This is especially prevalent in the IT companies but lots of other sectors are moving that way too.That is a massive threat to the viability of the office space in the development

I dont want to be a downer on the project but these are legitimate concerns especially facing into the inevitable post covid recession .This looks like a boom time project and there are plenty of celtic tiger examples of these types of projects that ran into trouble when the recession hit.It seems to me that Waterord people are so desperate for some investment they are happy to close their eyes and hope for the best when it comes to this project

I would not underestimate the number of people who cannot stand Dublin and want to get out. I cannot see a big change in the amount of office working in the long term to me it is just a thing at the moment like nobody will fly again after 911. As someone who has been working from home sense March I am honestly starting to struggle with the isolation. Most people will be dying to go back to the office. Also, companies prefer people to be in the same location, there are many benefits to it.

On the retail side there are of course questions. However, Rob Cass has already said that retail may be reduced in favour of more offices.

imacman

DubToDeise wrote: »

I think its important to note the difference between a traditional shopping centre works and the system operated by Fawaz Al Hokair. While they'll probably rent some of the units out, they're not dependent on it. They have a portfolio of brands that they can utilise, kind of like franchises. They could open a Zara in their centre and operate it themselves under licence.

Zara who recently announced that are closing 1200 stores world wide
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/06/11/1200-shops-shut-spains-fashion-powerhouse-zara-in-trouble-after-losing-almost-half-of-all-sales/

That high end franchise market is in the most trouble going forward , its the likes of Pennys and tk max that are doing the most business at the moment

imacman

BBM77 wrote: »

I would not underestimate the number of people who cannot stand Dublin and want to get out. I cannot see a big change in the amount of office working in the long term to me it is just a thing at the moment like nobody will fly again after 911. As someone who has been working from home sense March I am honestly starting to struggle with the isolation. Most people will be dying to go back to the office. Also, companies prefer people to be in the same location, there are many benefits to it.

On the retail side there are of course questions. However, Rob Cass has already said that retail may be reduced in favour of more offices.

But it wont be up to people it will be up to the companies who see the savings in home working and not having large expensive office spaces and its always going to be about the bottom line especially in recessionary time.And even companies who do want people back in the office are going to be very wary of investing in new spaces like the north quays

Harry Palmr

The nature of the space might well change, I have no idea why I think this but I always assumed the NQP would look to emphasise discreet offices rather than an open plan design. But either way the project managers have the scope to design the overall space to be adaptable.

DubToDeise

imacman wrote: »

Zara who recently announced that are closing 1200 stores world wide
https://www.euroweeklynews.com/2020/06/11/1200-shops-shut-spains-fashion-powerhouse-zara-in-trouble-after-losing-almost-half-of-all-sales/

That high end franchise market is in the most trouble going forward , its the likes of Pennys and tk max that are doing the most business at the moment

The article you posted relates specifically to Inditex owned and operated stores which is my point. A store operated by Fawaz Al Hokair under licence would not be exposed to the same external forces.

imacman

DubToDeise wrote: »

The article you posted relates specifically to Inditex owned and operated stores which is my point. A store operated by Fawaz Al Hokair under licence would not be exposed to the same external forces.

So Fawaz Al Hokair are completely immune from the issues with brick and mortar retail that are happening across the world.No matter what type of shops are going to be in the center they still need people to go into them and buy stuff and the global trend is instore retail is declining with online sales and Covid will just increase the speed of this decline. To think that Waterford and the Saudi company are special and will be unaffected by this is unrealistic

imacman

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The nature of the space might well change, I have no idea why I think this but I always assumed the NQP would look to emphasise discreet offices rather than an open plan design. But either way the project managers have the scope to design the overall space to be adaptable.

Have you seen the office plans, they are large scale spaces in high rise buildings , I would'nt call them discreet

DubToDeise

imacman wrote: »

So Fawaz Al Hokair are completely immune from the issues with brick and mortar retail that are happening across the world.No matter what type of shops are going to be in the center they still need people to go into them and buy stuff and the global trend is instore retail is declining with online sales and Covid will just increase the speed of this decline. To think that Waterford and the Saudi company are special and will be unaffected by this is unrealistic

I never said they were immune. I pointed out they don't have to rely on tenants. The entire centre can operate the same as a department store with individual stores essentially "concessions".

imacman

DubToDeise wrote: »

I never said they were immune. I pointed out they don't have to rely on tenants. The entire centre can operate the same as a department store with individual stores essentially "concessions".

But firstly they need the stores to setup there and secondly they need they to be successful to pay the rent.They are not going to let those concessions in there for free.

DubToDeise

imacman wrote: »

But firstly they need the stores to setup there and secondly they need they to be successful to pay the rent.They are not going to let those concessions in there for free.

That's the point. The stores don't have to setup there. The unit is owned by Al Hokair, it is operated by them, the staff are employed by them. The stock is bought from the brand and the name is licenced. They already have a portfolio of concessions that THEY pay.

Wanderer78

im not confident the negatives of this project will be address, again, further asset price inflation, percentage of low waged jobs, and the negatives of monopolization of markets

Harry Palmr

4 years of pretty well paid jobs for the construction phase I'd say, imagine most of that mooha being spent in Spar across the road.