€300M Investment into Waterford City

Wanderer78

Harry Palmr wrote: »

4 years of pretty well paid jobs for the construction phase I'd say, imagine most of that mooha being spent in Spar across the road.

the construction industry will do well out of it, as its a part of the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), i.e. net wealth extractors, 'rent seekers' etc, but what could be left is a large percentage of low waged, precarious jobs. we cant keep playing this game!

Teebor15

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im not confident the negatives of this project will be address, again, further asset price inflation, percentage of low waged jobs, and the negatives of monopolization of markets

You forgot wealth extraction!!

Haha..I see you have now mentioned it while I was typing my post...brilliant!!!

Wanderer78

Teebor15 wrote: »

You forgot wealth extraction!!

Haha..I see you have now mentioned it while I was typing my post...brilliant!!!

laugh away folks, as its your kids and grandkids that are gonna have to deal with the fallout from all this, have a guess whats causing political upheaval globally

Christy Browne

Wanderer78 wrote: »

laugh away folks, as its your kids and grandkids that are gonna have to deal with the fallout from all this, have a guess whats causing political upheaval globally

City centre office and retail space?

Wanderer78

Christy Browne wrote: »

City centre office and retail space?

wealth distribution, or the lack of, gini coefficients are on the rise

Stopitwillya

A few left wing loonies in this thread.

Wanderer78

whats the most likely outcome of house prices in the region with blonking this thing in the region?

Harry Palmr

Mixed, who knows.

On the one hand they'll be added units to Waterford on the other they'll be keeping more people, esp the 25-35 cohort in the city as they'll be working in NQ based companies, I'm sure the Council is thinking of this but you'd hope that this and the university will be developed in parallel though WIT is already well placed for the tech end of the market as we've seen through Arc Labs/Crystal Valley Tech etc.

Plenty of other factors will dictate the price of accomodation, wider economy, planning, service infrastructure and so on.

Wanderer78

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Mixed, who knows.

On the one hand they'll be added units to Waterford on the other they'll be keeping more people, esp the 25-35 cohort in the city as they'll be working in NQ based companies, I'm sure the Council is thinking of this but you'd hope that this and the university will be developed in parallel though WIT is already well placed for the tech end of the market as we've seen through Arc Labs/Crystal Valley Tech etc.

Plenty of other factors will dictate the price of accomodation, wider economy, planning, service infrastructure and so on.

nearly always, the value of housing rises when large developments are introduced into a region, is this good for all citizens?

hardybuck

Wanderer78 wrote: »

nearly always, the value of housing rises when large developments are introduced into a region, is this good for all citizens?

I'd say there is a decent chance it'll reduce or maintain the level of property prices in the city as it'll introduce significant additional supply.

Wanderer78

hardybuck wrote: »

I'd say there is a decent chance it'll reduce or maintain the level of property prices in the city as it'll introduce significant additional supply.

and we re back to neoclassical economics, this is not what we see in reality, not exactly, for example, prices are probably falling now, apparently this means demand is falling, is this true?

hardybuck

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and we re back to neoclassical economics, this is not what we see in reality, not exactly, for example, prices are probably falling now, apparently this means demand is falling, is this true?

Is it not economics 101 - supply and demand? Let's not over-complicate it.

Let's say I have something which is available to purchase. If there is a scarcity of it you'll probably have to pay me more than you would if there was an abundance of it. Unless you live in some sort of post war Soviet Communist setup.

BTW - prices as far as I'm aware aren't falling - not significantly anyway. However demand and prices might be greater if supply isn't built.

Wanderer78

hardybuck wrote: »

It it not economics 101 - supply and demand? Let's not over-complicate it.

Let's say I have something which is available to purchase. If there is a scarcity of it you'll probably have to pay me more than you would if there was an abundance of it. Unless you live in some sort of post war Soviet Communist setup.

BTW - prices as far as I'm aware aren't falling - not significantly anyway. However demand and prices might be greater if supply isn't built.

neoclassical is more or less bust, theres increasing evidence to support this, our economies are not linear in nature, either tending towards or away from equilibrium, they are in fact a perfect example of 'complex dynamic systems', im afraid the nature of complexity is exactly that, complex, 101 has tried to simplify something that simply isnt simple.

theres no question we need more supply, but we ve needed that nationally since the last crash, its interesting that the market hasnt reacted yet to this demand, which has been there since before the last crash, it must be on holidays or something!

why would anyway want to live in a communist/socialist society!

anyway, introducing large projects such as this will more than likely add value to pre-existing properties in the area, particularly those nearest the project. you ll find this will only truly benefit those that currently own homes, the losers in this will be younger generations who currently find themselves stuck at home or in the rental sector, mainly your kids and grandkids.

hardybuck

Yeah but young people definitely won't be able to live in the area if there aren't any available properties.

Re supply, house building last year was four times higher than 2015 but still not meeting demand.

And again this isn't neo classical economics or any other term you want to lash in there. The same principle would apply to eggs, to wine, to gold. Always has and always will. Supply and demand baby.

Wanderer78

hardybuck wrote: »

Yeah but young people definitely won't be able to live in the area if there aren't any available properties.

Re supply, house building last year was four times higher than 2015 but still not meeting demand.

And again this isn't neo classical economics or any other term you want to lash in there. The same principle would apply to eggs, to wine, to gold. Always has and always will. Supply and demand baby.

but its not how our reality works, the negatives of this project must be addressed, 101(neoclassical) fails in critical needs such as housing and health care, you ll find these are the most common issues in a modern economy.

Harry Palmr

Afaik there's development on two sites on ring road, there's two out at Ballygunner granted pp, the site at Island Drive, the Paddocks (not sure of status) and Lacken road

Wanderer78

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Afaik there's development on two sites on ring road, there's two out at Ballygunner granted pp, the site at Island Drive, the Paddocks (not sure of status) and Lacken road

we re in desperate need of increasing our public housing, many are getting trapped in the rental sector, with limited ability to save

Doylers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re in desperate need of increasing our public housing, many are getting trapped in the rental sector, with limited ability to save

I've always wanted to ask this question. Why is the suggested solution always around public housing? Like in my case I make a decent wage so wouldn't be eligible for housing or any support. So if you built 10000 extra public houses in Waterford, what'd that do for me ?

TheGom

The Ard Ri Hotel & Ferrybank shopping centre are the benchmarks business that side of the river.



Remember this one?


http://cjfa.ie/projects/waterford-south-quays-development-waterhaven-tower-south-quays-waterford-ireland




Outcome annoying traffic lights.




Total spoof job....

JohnC.

What have the traffic lights got to do with that?

Wanderer78

Doylers wrote:

I've always wanted to ask this question. Why is the suggested solution always around public housing? Like in my case I make a decent wage so wouldn't be eligible for housing or any support. So if you built 10000 extra public houses in Waterford, what'd that do for me ?

Many younger generations are getting trapped in the rental sector, being unable to save sufficiently to purchase their own place, some can't even make it out of the home. many are stuck in a low wage inflation environments. If we continue like this we potentially could create a lower overall economic growth rate as these younger generations pay an increasing amount of their pay on rent, this will also reduce the overall ability for the private sector to expand and grow as many of these younger generations won't be taking on new debt, that is required to purchase homes etc. There's an extra downward pressure on these younger generations, more and more are getting trapped in rentals and the home, I.e. the longer we play this game, the likelihood of this increasing continues, so if you have kids or grandkids, there's an increasing chance of them remaining in the home longer, or them being forced out of the rental sector back into the home, and some won't be coming home alone! Its a bit of a mess really

Stopitwillya

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Many younger generations are getting trapped in the rental sector, being unable to save sufficiently to purchase their own place, some can't even make it out of the home. many are stuck in a low wage inflation environments. If we continue like this we potentially could create a lower overall economic growth rate as these younger generations pay an increasing amount of their pay on rent, this will also reduce the overall ability for the private sector to expand and grow as many of these younger generations won't be taking on new debt, that is required to purchase homes etc. There's an extra downward pressure on these younger generations, more and more are getting trapped in rentals and the home, I.e. the longer we play this game, the likelihood of this increasing continues, so if you have kids or grandkids, there's an increasing chance of them remaining in the home longer, or them being forced out of the rental sector back into the home, and some won't be coming home alone! Its a bit of a mess really

You can buy a 3 bed in Waterford city for less than €120k. That's €12k deposit and €422 per month over 30 years. Very affordable. Too many people looking for a free house off the council rather than scrimping and saving like most of us have had to do.

Max Powers

Doylers wrote: »

I've always wanted to ask this question. Why is the suggested solution always around public housing? Like in my case I make a decent wage so wouldn't be eligible for housing or any support. So if you built 10000 extra public houses in Waterford, what'd that do for me ?

More affordable housing, might be better. If we built 10000 council houses in Waterford, the maintenance and cost of maintaining them would cripple the council as is. We have seen how difficult it is for councils across the country to get rent payments for existing stock in, it's no wonder they sold a lot of them off for a song years ago. People often quote the likes of public housing in Norway or Austria or some place, I don't think they realise first off in most cases, their taxes are much higher and secondly the rents are in the area of , 5, 6, 700 for these council houses, and paid, thereby making it manageable for the council to build and maintain.

Wanderer78

Max Powers wrote: »

More affordable housing, might be better. If we built 10000 council houses in Waterford, the maintenance and cost of maintaining them would cripple the council as is. We have seen how difficult it is for councils across the country to get rent payments for existing stock in, it's no wonder they sold a lot of them off for a song years ago. People often quote the likes of public housing in Norway or Austria or some place, I don't think they realise first off in most cases, their taxes are much higher and secondly the rents are in the area of , 5, 6, 700 for these council houses, and paid, thereby making it manageable for the council to build and maintain.

if the council requested a small percentage of the local taxes from the lifetime of this project as stocks and shares, we d probably get a better share of the wealth created from it, from that the council could start providing more homes and other public needed faculties without needing to increase taxes on the citizens

Wanderer78

Stopitwillya wrote: »

You can buy a 3 bed in Waterford city for less than €120k. That's €12k deposit and €422 per month over 30 years. Very affordable. Too many people looking for a free house off the council rather than scrimping and saving like most of us have had to do.

many younger people are stuck, they cant save to meet the requirements, theyre getting stuck in rentals, where would those houses be? very few, if anyone receives free housing, the missing term is 'heavily subsidized', we dont live in an equal opportunity world, and as inequality grows, inequality of opportunities also grows

Max Powers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

if the council requested a small percentage of the local taxes from the lifetime of this project as stocks and shares, we d probably get a better share of the wealth created from it, from that the council could start providing more homes and other public needed faculties without needing to increase taxes on the citizens

And they might tell us to p off. All a bit fanciful and not in the reality. As is, the council and Waterford will benefit massively from this project if all goes to plan.

Wanderer78

Max Powers wrote: »

And they might tell us to p off. All a bit fanciful and not in the reality. As is, the council and Waterford will benefit massively from this project if all goes to plan.

not really, these kind of things occur in other countries, but generally on a national level with the use of sovereign wealth funds etc, i do think its possible to have them not only at a national level but local to, most wealth from the project will be created by asset price inflation

Max Powers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

not really, these kind of things occur in other countries, but generally on a national level with the use of sovereign wealth funds etc, i do think its possible to have them not only at a national level but local to, most wealth from the project will be created by asset price inflation

Exactly, happening in other countries at national levels, this is economic theory stuff...fanciful. There is no easy solutions to problems and challenges we have, people that put forward unproven solutions like they are easy, have no consequences are in general dangerous or charlatans.

Wanderer78

Max Powers wrote: »

Exactly, happening in other countries at national levels, this is economic theory stuff...fanciful. There is no easy solutions to problems and challenges we have, people that put forward unproven solutions like they are easy, have no consequences are in general dangerous or charlatans.

so doing what we ve been doing for the last few decades, encouraging fdi in, allowing them to pay little tax, forcing the citizens to pay it, and letting them extract the majority of wealth created from their activities here, is gonna work?

some small start ups are realising this, some operating here in waterford, and are addressing it by part paying new young recruits with stock options as soon as they start, theyre realising a large proportion of the wealth of their business is in its stocks and shares, and realise its best to share more equally amongst its employees

imacman

Max Powers wrote: »

As is, the council and Waterford will benefit massively from this project if all goes to plan.

There has to be major question marks about it in the current form .As previously discussed the slow death of retail and the current movement to working from home which is leading to reduction of the demand for office space are major threats to its viability. Add to this inevitable recession thats coming post covid which is going to reduce the demand for all retail, office and residential spaces.
Maybe it needs to be a staged build where parts of the project are developed over a longer period of time based on market demand .Otherwise there is a real risk of going into white elephant territory here.