€300M Investment into Waterford City

Deiseen

imacman wrote: »

Nobody has addressed the concerns I mentioned above but it looks like this has become a cheerleader thread for the North Quays where no hard questions about its viability are allowed.

1. Retail - yes Covid has turned everything on it's head but I think the developer has recognised that UK retail is particularly struggling and we need to get away from our reliance on UK companies. Pre-Covid, Retail was actually doing pretty well in other parts of Europe. We tend to view everything in a British bubble as we get a lot of our news from there. Many UK stores also have huge rent issues that we just won't have here. Also, If I remember this was addressed by another poster who clarified how Al Hokair operate their retail elements. On top of that, every report ever written into retail in Waterford shows that we are lacking about 30% in decent retail space. Should we just continue that lacklustre trend just because a virus has popped it's head up? I know online shopping is an issue and will hit the smaller stores, I don't think a development like this has much concern against online shopping (just yet).

2. Three cinemas - probably not but it will be survival of the fittest. I imagine the cinema in the North Quays would survive and an existing one (or both) may close. Don't forget that Waterfords population is expected to grow substantially to 2040 and hopefully this will draw more visitors to the city which might make more than one cinema viable. Either way, should we stop building modern facilities because there is already an older existing facility in a city? We won't ever build much if that's the case.

3. Office Space - Good office space is so badly needed in the city that I would consider it strange to even question any new proposal. But we are in strange times so let's go. I imagine the office space in this development will be offered at a fraction of the cost of what's available in Cork and Dublin. It might be hard to justify expensive offices in those cities, but a cheaper Regional Office in Waterford might actually be more appealing. Maybe they will designate a large portion of it as a co-working space. Anyway, I am not sold on the working from home revolution. We are social animals, we like to get out of the house and do things with others so while there will be changes to office working, I think it may be to our benefit.

Keep in mind that this development is 4 years away. Covid could hopefully be a long distant memory by that stage but we are left with a world that has recognised that it needs to change it's act. Hopefully Waterford has a shiny new city centre to be a big part of that change within Ireland.

mayordenis

imacman wrote: »

Nobody has addressed the concerns I mentioned above but it looks like this has become a cheerleader thread for the North Quays where no hard questions about its viability are allowed.

Sure, no dissent allowed, that's what this has become. Or maybe, some people are bored with the same circular conversations.

I'll try talk about your questions, but like you and everyone else I am putting forward an opinion.

Retail, it's my understanding this type of development basically has a retail partner that could fit out an entire shopping area in various sub-brands, so they wouldn't be sitting on their hole waiting for H&M or whatever that hasn't happened in city square.

Massive new cinema? A cinema does appear to be part of the development, I don think it is some sort of utterly central component of the development. But can the city sustain 3 cinemas? My heart says maybe. I don't really know, it's certainly possible, In Cork off the top of my head they have about 6 or so, haven't lived their in a long time so that may have gone up or down.

Office space. I think there should be no doubt that we need more quality office space. If you know people who work in offices in the city centre they are mostly ****e. If you are trying to make an argument against this based on covid-19 then it's a bit short-sighted. There are going to be decades of event studies in all fields about pre/post covid-19. Talking about inevitable recessions etc, it strikes me as projecting based on very little. As long as we are seen as a tax haven, business will want to hold a physical address in Ireland. To be able to domicile here they'll need to keep a fairly decent amount of activity here. Then I would reckon that actually it may be cheaper to hold an office in Waterford rather than Dublin. Furthermore, if you truly believe that working from home will become more widespread (I don't disagree) post Covid-19 will this not more disproportionately and adversely effect Dublin offices?

Anecdotally, we hear plenty of stories of people moving out of Dublin currently, we hear politicians hyping up regional towns and cities, I don't think I've heard a single argument regarding now being a good time to move to or relocate a business to Dublin, because it would make absolutely no sense.

Your questions were: do we need more retail, cinemas, and offices. I'd say 2 of the 3 are categorically a 'yes'. I'd have the cinema as a maybe. That said what development of any ambition can we point to and say there are no doubts around its viability and success? If we were given the viking triangle as a single plan back in 2000? Would there have been doubts?

Like it's getting a bit tiring having every second post being 'I guess negative posts aren't allowed' HINT: you have just made a critical post and surprise; it was allowed.

Harry Palmr

The magic words - whole project funding.

https://twitter.com/WaterfordNS/status/1287778617573990402?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Clearly the expected time frame by the council for a shovel in the ground next spring was about right.

Deiseen

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The magic words - whole project funding.

https://twitter.com/WaterfordNS/status/1287778617573990402?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Those three words I love.

The fact that it'll be "another three months" is painful.

Harry Palmr

The councillor (or was it Michael Walsh?) who spoke about this did say next Spring was the likely start date, looks like he was right.

Teebor15

"Likely to be brought before Cabinet". Call me cynical but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this still has not been confirmed by the end of the year. It was the same with the airport runway extension, the date would come where the announcement would be expected then all we'd hear is how much potential it all has but we need more information on this that or the other and we'll make a decision in the coming months. I can see the same happening with the North Quays, string us along in the hope the developers get fed up and pull out, while all the time confirming funding for projects in Cork left, right and centre.

Obviously I'd be delighted if I'm wrong!

BBM77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The magic words - whole project funding.

https://twitter.com/WaterfordNS/status/1287778617573990402?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

How is this anything to get excited about? They don't need this long to sign of on this funding. They are just messing around :mad:

Harry Palmr

Whole project funding is what it says. No pissing about in stages seeking to sign off this part and that part over months, not knowing for sure if the money (or certainly all of it) was going to be available.

Wanderer78

Oh ffs, sign the fcuking thing, it ll create a shed load of jobs immediately for the region

BBM77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Whole project funding is what it says. No pissing about in stages seeking to sign off this part and that part over months, not knowing for sure if the money (or certainly all of it) was going to be available.

I appreciate your positivity. However, this is just bull ****e. It does not take 24 months to sign of on what is a tiny amount in government spending terms. People in Waterford need to wake up to how the government treats us.

Dexpat

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The magic words - whole project funding.

https://twitter.com/WaterfordNS/status/1287778617573990402?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Yeah the funding certainty that this gives is important.

While I can understand peoples cynicism because of what has happened in the past I can't take anything put positives from this. It wouldn't get into the public domain if it wasn't going to be signed off.

Sure it will take more time but a few more months aren't too significant given how long it has taken to get to this point. The momentum is really behind it now.

Muttley79

BBM77 wrote: »

I appreciate your positivity. However, this is just bull ****e. It does not take 24 months to sign of on what is a tiny amount in government spending terms. People in Waterford need to wake up to how the government treats us.

Agreed,this was supposed to be built by December 2019,here we are 4 whole years later and still waiting on the green light on funding from our masters in the dail.if this was dublin/cork it would have been done years ago it's a two tier system in this country with how the government invest in capital projects.between the north quays the airport and the collage the government have dragged the arse out of it now leaving us hanging for an answer all for 20/30 years now!!!

BBM77

Muttley79 wrote: »

Agreed,this was supposed to be built by December 2019,here we are 4 whole years later and still waiting on the green light on funding from our masters in the dail.if this was dublin/cork it would have been done years ago it's a two tier system in this country with how the government invest in capital projects.between the north quays the airport and the collage the government have dragged the arse out of it now leaving us hanging for an answer all for 20/30 years now!!!

Absolutely, people need to wise up. Just look at the tower crane that went up in Ardkeen for building the new mortuary the other week. Varadkar’s reputation was damaged nationally by what he said about consultants after the problems with the mortuary in UHW became national news. To help try smooth things over the new mortuary was started in just weeks. No delays in cabinet, no oh next month now, no waiting for some mysterious extra information etc. It was just started because it suited him. This Sep thing is just delay tactics as you say.

Bards

It's all fake news at this stage.... Show me the money and then I will believe... 'till then it's all smoke and mirrors

Harry Palmr

I've just been looking through the first 15 or so pages of this thread. Not many positions have changed as far as I can tell!

Niallof9

imacman wrote: »

Nobody has addressed the concerns I mentioned above but it looks like this has become a cheerleader thread for the North Quays where no hard questions about its viability are allowed.

I suppose its better that there is nothing there right? that will be great for the city. i mean the wasteland on the north side is a beauty. I mean it should be preserved at all costs.

Its one of the worst examples in Ireland of a complete waste of space, piss poor planning and joined up thinking, and a no brainer for redevelopment. particularly if you actually want to foster Waterford as a "city". as a visitor to Waterford i'm always surprised by the place, then i look over the river and see that wasteland.

They say the same thing all over Ireland about viability. Even in Dublin - the ifsc, the aviva, the grand canal dock area, the luas and on and on. White elephants. And its mostly been hot air and proven false. to encourage development and regeneration you need to actually develop and regenerate.

Muttley79

BBM77 wrote: »

Absolutely, people need to wise up. Just look at the tower crane that went up in Ardkeen for building the new mortuary the other week. Varadkar’s reputation was damaged nationally by what he said about consultants after the problems with the mortuary in UHW became national news. To help try smooth things over the new mortuary was started in just weeks. No delays in cabinet, no oh next month now, no waiting for some mysterious extra information etc. It was just started because it suited him. This Sep thing is just delay tactics as you say.

Politicians senators councillors must all go to the same collage.when asked about anything they have no answer to it's well we have set up a report,investigation,feasible study,assessment into it,this usually takes roughly two years alone for a straight yes/no answer and then it sits on the government table for the remainder of that government until the next elections and it's the same questions asked to the new government and again they will regurgitate the same answer as that last report is now out of date or they have no knowledge of that report ,it goes on and on and on and we allow them away with it.anyway let's all hope they finally invest in this project in Waterford as it's long overdue and will pay back itself tenfold.

Wanderer78

Niallof9 wrote: »

I suppose its better that there is nothing there right? that will be great for the city. i mean the wasteland on the north side is a beauty. I mean it should be preserved at all costs.

Its one of the worst examples in Ireland of a complete waste of space, piss poor planning and joined up thinking, and a no brainer for redevelopment. particularly if you actually want to foster Waterford as a "city". as a visitor to Waterford i'm always surprised by the place, then i look over the river and see that wasteland.

They say the same thing all over Ireland about viability. Even in Dublin - the ifsc, the aviva, the grand canal dock area, the luas and on and on. White elephants. And its mostly been hot air and proven false. to encourage development and regeneration you need to actually develop and regenerate.

to be fair, any sort of criticism or negative views arent encouraged, and effectively is shut down, which isnt a good sign

E38E3E38E3EE33

Wanderer78 wrote: »

to be fair, any sort of criticism or negative views arent encouraged, and effectively is shut down, which isnt a good sign

The constant parroting of "it'll never happen" for years got old pretty fast, yet some would like to increase the level of negativity around a project that has yet to be given the go ahead.

I've stepped in to this thread a few times to post some encouraging news only to see it full of negativity, and hearing calls from people trying to extinguish any positivity and to encourage negativity in it's place is pretty depressing.

Blind optimism isn't beneficial, unneeded negativity is worse.

Teebor15

E38E3E38E3EE33 wrote: »

The constant parroting of "it'll never happen" for years got old pretty fast, yet some would like to increase the level of negativity around a project that has yet to be given the go ahead.

I've stepped in to this thread a few times to post some encouraging news only to see it full of negativity, and hearing calls from people trying to extinguish any positivity and to encourage negativity in it's place is pretty depressing.

Blind optimism isn't beneficial, unneeded negativity is worse.

Some are lumping negativity and what history has proven together. We have been starved of investment in so many areas and strung along by successive governments because we have no political clout that people are conditioned, and probably rightly so, to be sceptical about anything positive that comes from the mouths of the powers that be. That's different than being negative for negatives sake.

Overall I'm positive about the North Quays, have been from day one. I mean it's not going to stay undeveloped forever, and I believe now is the time. But I'm highly sceptical of any funding announcement in September. Once bitten and all that!

Dexpat

https://waterford-news.ie/2020/07/28/michael-street-reimagined/#.XyBHMohKiM8

It looks like Michael St element of the overall development will change from the version which has planning approval from 2017. From my reading of it, it seems the retail element will be smaller than originally planned and a hotel will be added.

Without seeing more details it is worrying if there is not a strong retail counterbalance to the NQ. Michael St is very important for the viability of the existing city centre but as it is by the same developers as the NQ there is an incentive for them to get the mix right, and for them both to work.

I know a hotel was part of the original 2005 (ish) plans and I think it was dropped later so it is great to see it being added again. Waterford needs more high quality hotel accommodation if it is to build on the greenway success and (hopefully) the NQ.

Harry Palmr

Matt Shanahan and David Cullinane on Deise AM, separately talking about the meeting with the minister and why one was there and the other was not.

kuang1

By the by, I emailed our 4 TDs a few weeks back about a couple of covid related issues.
Marc O Cathasaigh and Mary Butler both responded promptly with tailored, positive responses. (I appreciate it may have been their PAs who wrote it).

Matt Shanahans assistant sent me an automated, copy & paste type response, promising that I would receive a further response after Matt had read my email. No further contact received since then.

And David Cullinane did not reply.

(don't mean to derail this thread btw!)

Harry Palmr

Michael Street plans revealed. Much reduced retail element, more leisure and recreation floorspace.

JohnC.

Where?

Harry Palmr

Not sure yet, heard on WLR news

E38E3E38E3EE33

WLR Link

I think the reduction in retail is a good idea, less transport and more people in the center is better for the city IMO.

hardybuck

This might be a good litmus test of Falcon and where their interests lie.

One would assume that Michael St is a more 'shovel ready' project, or if it isn't it definitely should have been. Why didn't this start a couple of years ago - they could be finished by now.

Arguably the city centre needs Michael St done before it needs the NQs done. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that Falcon could let is sit there for many years before anything happens - especially if they're going back in for planning.

Will be interesting to see if this creates any tensions between the Council and the developer.

mayordenis

'It is believed the existing New Street Car Park will also be incorporated.'?

What is that about? That building is a travesty.

BBM77

I’d love to see a big shopping centre in Michael St but realistically that is not going to happen. A lot has changed since 2017, many big names are gone, a lot left are on shaky ground. City centre retail is finding a new level everywhere. Think this is just a reflection of the reality of retail these days. Do think a hotel around there is a great idea.

Some are already spouting that this is some kind of a conspiracy to move retail to the north quays. However, Falcon said as soon as they got planning permission for the north quays they will most likely reduce the retail over there to in favour of more offices. So in the end the ratio of retail between Michael St and the north quays will probably not change.

To keep the city centre vibrant you need to be realistic. Living in the past before online shopping or harping on about the likes of Debenhams that was always quite and not a draw is not going to help.