€300M Investment into Waterford City

Harry Palmr

mayordenis wrote: »

'It is believed the existing New Street Car Park will also be incorporated.'?

What is that about? That building is a travesty.

I'm sure what'll happen is that it'll be given a external makeover to blend into the new build.

BBM77 wrote: »

I’d love to see a big shopping centre in Michael St but realistically that is not going to happen. A lot has changed since 2017, many big names are gone, a lot left are on shaky ground. City centre retail is finding a new level everywhere. Think this is just a reflection of the reality of retail these days. Do think a hotel around there is a great idea.

Some are already spouting that this is some kind of a conspiracy to move retail to the north quays. However, Falcon said as soon as they got planning permission for the north quays they will most likely reduce the retail over there to in favour of more offices. So in the end the ratio of retail between Michael St and the north quays will probably not change.

To keep the city centre vibrant you need to be realistic. Living in the past before online shopping or harping on about the likes of Debenhams that was always quite and not a draw is not going to help.

Some will moan but as you say they've reacted to the change in why people visit a city centre these days. Hopefully we'll see the detail soon. I was intrigued by the mention of mini green spaces.

hardybuck

BBM77 wrote: »

I’d love to see a big shopping centre in Michael St but realistically that is not going to happen. A lot has changed since 2017, many big names are gone, a lot left are on shaky ground. City centre retail is finding a new level everywhere. Think this is just a reflection of the reality of retail these days. Do think a hotel around there is a great idea.

Some are already spouting that this is some kind of a conspiracy to move retail to the north quays. However, Falcon said as soon as they got planning permission for the north quays they will most likely reduce the retail over there to in favour of more offices. So in the end the ratio of retail between Michael St and the north quays will probably not change.

To keep the city centre vibrant you need to be realistic. Living in the past before online shopping or harping on about the likes of Debenhams that was always quite and not a draw is not going to help.

I wouldn't be fussed what goes into Michael St. A hotel is a good shout - they're job intensive and would bring footfall to the area, particularly in the evenings when all the shops close currently. They could put residential in there, offices - all good options.

However it's now over three years since this thing started and there is talks of going back in for planning. The NQs is obviously a hugely complex project and will rely on Government funding to make it possible/viable - but I don't think Michael St falls into this category.

I'm hoping that it's not another 2-3 years before works start on Michael St - but I fear that's what'll happen.

This doesn't appear to be on the Vacant Sites Register, and therefore the owners aren't paying a levy while they sit on the asset. Perhaps there is a very clear rationale for this.

Harry Palmr

Listening to WLR, there was mention about the railway station move and that "they" (presumably the City council/manager) were now satisfied the way for that was clear.

azimuth17

hardybuck wrote: »

I wouldn't be fussed what goes into Michael St. A hotel is a good shout - they're job intensive and would bring footfall to the area, particularly in the evenings when all the shops close currently. They could put residential in there, offices - all good options.

However it's now over three years since this thing started and there is talks of going back in for planning. The NQs is obviously a hugely complex project and will rely on Government funding to make it possible/viable - but I don't think Michael St falls into this category.

I'm hoping that it's not another 2-3 years before works start on Michael St - but I fear that's what'll happen.

This doesn't appear to be on the Vacant Sites Register, and therefore the owners aren't paying a levy while they sit on the asset. Perhaps there is a very clear rationale for this.

Council owns the site as is mentioned in local papers this week, so the planning will be a Part 8 one which is not open to ABP appeal I think. This would make for a much shorter process. Delays do seem endless although I think we are getting to the end game. I believe bridge and railway station and various road works in Ferrybank will definitely go ahead. As to the rest? Who knows. Hotel in Michael Street a great idea.

914

12 years later and we still wait

https://ibb.co/Z13YLWj

http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/e280m-1900-job-godsend-for-city/

around the same time as Bilberry

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20060935.html

Harry Palmr

Different schemes by different companies launched just before the arse fell out of the entire global economy.

Published on Friday, November 14th, 2008 at 5:22 pm

WEDNESDAY, APRIL 23, 2008 - 01:00 AM

Dum_Dum

When you keep pushing things further into the future you'll eventually hit a recession. And with retrospect, you can blame that.


This is actually Government policy for Waterford.

914

https://twitter.com/Deisesupes/status/1288858470394073090?s=19

Dexpat

While I belive it would be better to have more retail in Michael St to support the existing city centre if/when the NQ is built I suppose things are changing so much and so quickly that changes to the plan were inevitable.

The new plans look quite good and the hotel and apartments and townhouses will give the city centre a boost in terms of residential density and increased footfall after 6pm which is much needed. That area of town will be well suited to more local/ niche craft shops and cafes and then maybe the area around John Roberts Sq will be the focus of more traditional retail. If the NQ proceeds I would anticipate the traditional retail will rebound somewhat and City Sq will benefit from that as many retailers have been holding off investing in Waterford pending the NQ confirmation. I know in this climate things look bleak and maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think final approval will give the city centre a huge shot in the arm well before construction starts.

The problem now is the further delay that the new Michael St application will bring. The Section 8 planning process can be up to 20 weeks and as far as I know it can still be appealed to An Bord Pleanala. Another delay is very frustrating and something Waterford has become very used to. However I believe this change in planning wouldn't be happening unless the council/developers were very confident that the NQ about to be given the green light on funding.

I don't really accept that this recession like others in the past will be a nail in the coffin of this and the NQ. They are much further advanced and have much more support than previous proposals, there is a 3-4 year delivery time and the developments are geared towards the future requirements rather that commercial development resulting from banks throwning money at developers.

I accept that others have different views and just because most people are generally positive towards it here doesn't mean that opposing arugements are being shouted down as has been mentioned.

azimuth17

I believe that a Part 8 application cannot be appealed to ABP?

Part 8 Developments:

What is a Part 8?]

A development carried out by a Local Authority is often referred to as ‘Part 8’ development. This is a reference to Part 8 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001, as amended, which sets out the procedure for carrying out such developments. Such works would include developments such as the construction of houses, roads, swimming pools, public toilets and more.

What is the procedure for carrying out a Part 8?

Public consultation is a fundamental element of the 'Part 8' planning application process. This consultation procedure requires that notice of the proposed development is given in an approved newspaper and that a site notice is erected on the land on which the proposed development would be situated.

After the expiration of the period during which submissions or observations may be made, a report is presented to the members of the Council. This report contains, amongst other items, a list of the persons or bodies who made submissions, along with a summary of the issues raised by them and the Chief Executive's response. This report recommends whether or not the proposed development should be proceeded with as proposed, or should not be proceeded with.

Following consideration of the Report, the proposed development may be carried out as recommended in the Report, unless the local authority, by resolution, decides to vary or modify the development, otherwise than as recommended in the Report, or decides not to proceed with the development.

Dexpat

azimuth17 wrote: »

I believe that a Part 8 application cannot be appealed to ABP?

Part 8 Developments:

What is a Part 8?]

A development carried out by a Local Authority is often referred to as ‘Part 8’ development. This is a reference to Part 8 of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001, as amended, which sets out the procedure for carrying out such developments. Such works would include developments such as the construction of houses, roads, swimming pools, public toilets and more.

What is the procedure for carrying out a Part 8?

Public consultation is a fundamental element of the 'Part 8' planning application process. This consultation procedure requires that notice of the proposed development is given in an approved newspaper and that a site notice is erected on the land on which the proposed development would be situated.

After the expiration of the period during which submissions or observations may be made, a report is presented to the members of the Council. This report contains, amongst other items, a list of the persons or bodies who made submissions, along with a summary of the issues raised by them and the Chief Executive's response. This report recommends whether or not the proposed development should be proceeded with as proposed, or should not be proceeded with.

Following consideration of the Report, the proposed development may be carried out as recommended in the Report, unless the local authority, by resolution, decides to vary or modify the development, otherwise than as recommended in the Report, or decides not to proceed with the development.

Thanks. I thought I had read previously that it could be appealed but I could't locate it again. That makes things a lot better so.

Wanderer78

Dexpat wrote: »

While I belive it would be better to have more retail in Michael St to support the existing city centre if/when the NQ is built I suppose things are changing so much and so quickly that changes to the plan were inevitable.

The new plans look quite good and the hotel and apartments and townhouses will give the city centre a boost in terms of residential density and increased footfall after 6pm which is much needed. That area of town will be well suited to more local/ niche craft shops and cafes and then maybe the area around John Roberts Sq will be the focus of more traditional retail. If the NQ proceeds I would anticipate the traditional retail will rebound somewhat and City Sq will benefit from that as many retailers have been holding off investing in Waterford pending the NQ confirmation. I know in this climate things look bleak and maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think final approval will give the city centre a huge shot in the arm well before construction starts.

The problem now is the further delay that the new Michael St application will bring. The Section 8 planning process can be up to 20 weeks and as far as I know it can still be appealed to An Bord Pleanala. Another delay is very frustrating and something Waterford has become very used to. However I believe this change in planning wouldn't be happening unless the council/developers were very confident that the NQ about to be given the green light on funding.

I don't really accept that this recession like others in the past will be a nail in the coffin of this and the NQ. They are much further advanced and have much more support than previous proposals, there is a 3-4 year delivery time and the developments are geared towards the future requirements rather that commercial development resulting from banks throwning money at developers.

I accept that others have different views and just because most people are generally positive towards it here doesn't mean that opposing arugements are being shouted down as has been mentioned.

nothing has changed here, majority, if not all of the money for these projects would be coming from banks anyway

Dexpat

Wanderer78 wrote: »

nothing has changed here, majority, if not all of the money for these projects would be coming from banks anyway

Yeah sure it will, but most of the developments at the end of the boom started with the tsunami of cash coming from the banks. The developers had so much cash available they came up with proposals to invest it in without caring much about the outcome of what they were building.

This is the other way around, a development which is needed, has been thought through and then needs to be financed. Obviously the developers will want to make a profit as well.

Don't want to derail the thread again with arguements about the shortcomings of the current economic system

Wanderer78

Dexpat wrote: »

Yeah sure it will, but most of the developments at the end of the boom started with the tsunami of cash coming from the banks. The developers had so much cash available they came up with proposals to invest it in without caring much about the outcome of what they were building.

This is the other way around, a development which is needed, has been thought through and then needs to be financed. Obviously the developers will want to make a profit as well.

Don't want to derail the thread again with arguements about the shortcomings of the current economic system

but theres really no difference here, most, if not all of the money for these projects is more than likely coming from banks in the form of credit, with record low rates, they d be silly not to, which in effect makes the investors risk managers more than anything, and id argue that this risk slowly moves from the investors into the public domain as these projects mature.

Teebor15

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but theres really no difference here, most, if not all of the money for these projects is more than likely coming from banks in the form of credit, with record low rates, they d be silly not to, which in effect makes the investors risk managers more than anything, and id argue that this risk slowly moves from the investors into the public domain as these projects mature.

And we're off...again!! :rolleyes:

Wanderer78

Teebor15 wrote: »

And we're off...again!! :rolleyes:

again, its always good to questions things, theres reasons why negative stuff happens!

Teebor15

Wanderer78 wrote: »

again, its always good to questions things, theres reasons why negative stuff happens!

Sure is.

As someone already suggested, you should definitely open a separate thread for yourself and others who want to talk economics and all that goes with it.

Wanderer78

Teebor15 wrote: »

Sure is.

As someone already suggested, you should definitely open a separate thread for yourself and others who want to talk economics and all that goes with it.

economics is the absolute heart of projects such as this one

im still confused at why people still feel the need to read and respond to comments when they dont have to, boards has resolved this minor life inconvenience with an ignore function

mayordenis

Getting mixed up between economics and finance

Wanderer78

mayordenis wrote: »

Getting mixed up between economics and finance

both intertwined in reality, money and banking would be a critical element of such a project

smellyoldboot

Did this ever happen?

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote:

Did this ever happen?

Some road works going on over that way, apparently, it's still waiting on government decisions though, it could just prevent a black hole from forming in Waterford, if it gets the go ahead

smellyoldboot

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Some road works going on over that way, apparently, it's still waiting on government decisions though, it could just prevent a black hole from forming in Waterford, if it gets the go ahead

What about the airport? Or Waterford University? Or the Hospital? New Luas for Waterford? They must be nearly finished now right?

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote:

What about the airport? Or Waterford University? Or the Hospital? New Luas for Waterford? They must be nearly finished now right?

Well up and running, far superior to Dublin as well

smellyoldboot

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Well up and running, far superior to Dublin as well

Deadly.

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote:

Deadly.

You need to be a long term resident of waterford to use the services though, otherwise you can use the donkeys

smellyoldboot

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You need to be a long term resident of waterford to use the services though, otherwise you can use the donkeys

Where do you apply for a donkey?

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote:

Where do you apply for a donkey?

You ll be given details of local halting sites upon arrival

smellyoldboot

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You ll be given details of local halting sites upon arrival

Ah balls. A "used" donkey. I knew there would be a catch. If ya take the donkey , can it be used as trade in against a new camel?

Azatadine

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You ll be given details of local halting sites upon arrival

Just head out Carrickphierrish way and you can't miss it.