€300M Investment into Waterford City

imacman

JohnC. wrote: »

Cineworld closed temporarily and a new one on NQ won't be opening next week. People will be going back to cinemas.

Waterford is big enough to sustain 3 cinemas , one or maybe both of the existing ones will close even if life returns to normal

Jamie2k9

So we should know in 2 weeks if funding is announced. He did seem confident in that video but plenty of these deadlines have passed with nothing announced.

The reference to Waterford/Dublin in 60 minutes, I honestly think a miss communication or Irish Rail are misleading him on the work required or cost (not part of project). Upgrades at Kilkenny and Kildare help but not enough by a long stretch to reduce times.

smellyoldboot

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So we should know in 2 weeks if funding is announced. He did seem confident in that video but plenty of these deadlines have passed with nothing announced.

The reference to Waterford/Dublin in 60 minutes, I honestly think a miss communication or Irish Rail are misleading him on the work required or cost (not part of project). Upgrades at Kilkenny and Kildare help but not enough by a long stretch to reduce times.

Sounds like a deliberate fudge tbh. Any reasonable person would understand that what is proposed is a 60 minute timetable frequency. And that a 60 minute journey time is not in fact possible with either our rail lines or carriage infrastructure without massive massive investment.

It would be extremely worrying that someone with an engineering background wouldn't grasp this so if this is the line being pushed, one can only assume deliberate obfuscation rather than such a glaring misunderstanding.

Wanderer78

mayordenis wrote:

Yea its an over-used adage that's kind of lost all meaning. And it's relationship to trickle-down economics is fairly clear. But we should be looking to rise the tide and hopefully at the same time try to fix systemic but ultimately unrelated failures.

Its not just over used, it's simply not the whole truth, the opposite is regularly the real outcome for some, particularly for pre-existing businesses, it's a phrase commonly used by utopic ideologies such as free market libertarianism. It's not only critical to implement protective measures for investors, but for all stakeholders, including pre-existing markets, as the negatives are now undermining everyone's future.

Wanderer78

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

Currently what is the quickest you can get to Dublin via train...? Isn’t there one that bypasses the Kilkenny link.......can it be done in less than 2 hrs...?

yup, roughly 2 hours is currently the quickest, so anything quicker would probably require significant network upgrades, high speed rail etc, multiples of billions etc

cgcsb

Fastest Waterford-Dublin train currently is 01:53 journey time. There's a high speed rail study being undertaken for Belfast-Cork and whatever option is selected for that, basically all intercity journey times in Ireland will be reduced somewhat as a result. If an upgrading of the existing lines is selected then the Kildare-Heuston section upgrade could take about 20 mins off the Dublin-Waterford time. If a whole new Dublin-Cork line is built via Kilkenny and Clonmel then you're looking at almost an hour reduction in Dublin to Waterford train journeys, assuming the remaining conventional speed section of Dublim-Waterford is electrified.

smellyoldboot

cgcsb wrote: »

Fastest Waterford-Dublin train currently is 01:53 journey time. There's a high speed rail study being undertaken for Belfast-Cork and whatever option is selected for that, basically all intercity journey times in Ireland will be reduced somewhat as a result. If an upgrading of the existing lines is selected then the Kildare-Heuston section upgrade could take about 20 mins off the Dublin-Waterford time. If a whole new Dublin-Cork line is built via Kilkenny and Clonmel then you're looking at almost an hour reduction in Dublin to Waterford train journeys, assuming the remaining conventional speed section of Dublim-Waterford is electrified.

That's an awful lot of if's and you can be damn sure the Waterford line will be right at the bottom of any list for future improvements. Ireland 2080 perhaps.

By the time we see a 60 minute journey time to Dublin, you will probably be able to travel from Paris to Berlin in the same time on the continent.

Harry Palmr

Of all the aspects of the NQP, the rail lines ability to carry a train at 170 KPH probably comes near the bottom of things to worry about. And it would be reckless to pin any weight on it with regard to the developers strategy.

Asdfgh2020

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Of all the aspects of the NQP, the rail lines ability to carry a train at 170 KPH probably comes near the bottom of things to worry about. And it would be reckless to pin any weight on it with regard to the developers strategy.

How many passengers can the typical Waterford to Dublin train carry......I’m not that regular a user but in recent years anytime I’ve used the train departing w’ford on the 7am one I’d estimate that it’s 1/4 full.......by the time of the last stop (Kildare....?) before Houston it’s standing room only......on the return trip from Dublin it’s 100% full or so leaving Dublin and gradually empties to 1/4 full by time it reaches plunkett station.....?

azimuth17

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

How many passengers can the typical Waterford to Dublin train carry......I’m not that regular a user but in recent years anytime I’ve used the train departing w’ford on the 7am one I’d estimate that it’s 1/4 full.......by the time of the last stop (Kildare....?) before Houston it’s standing room only......on the return trip from Dublin it’s 100% full or so leaving Dublin and gradually empties to 1/4 full by time it reaches plunkett station.....?

Isn't that why the train stops along the way, isn't that what trains are for? What I would like to know is how many buses of the three competing bus services (are they cheaper?) travel to and from Waterford to Dublin each day? Why did Expressway finish Dublin/Cork/Galway/Limerick bus services while holding on to Dublin/ Waterford? There is something wrong with the economics of the whole thing which suggests to me that a fast train service every hour, at a competitive price, with bus services linking into the train service along the route, would be much better?

Asdfgh2020

azimuth17 wrote: »

Isn't that why the train stops along the way, isn't that what trains are for? What I would like to know is how many buses of the three competing bus services (are they cheaper?) travel to and from Waterford to Dublin each day? Why did Expressway finish Dublin/Cork/Galway/Limerick bus services while holding on to Dublin/ Waterford? There is something wrong with the economics of the whole thing which suggests to me that a fast train service every hour, at a competitive price, with bus services linking into the train service along the route, would be much better?

60 mins to Dublin with 4/5 stops along the way I doubt is possible no matter what track upgrades etc are done....? Would even the French TGV’s type trains do 100 odd miles with multiple stops in an hour...??

smellyoldboot

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

60 mins to Dublin with 4/5 stops along the way I doubt is possible no matter what track upgrades etc are done....? Would even the French TGV’s type trains do 100 odd miles with multiple stops in an hour...??

The screenshot is a sample TGV timetable between Lille and Le Mans. Using Paris CDG airport as the mid point they are both roughly the same distance away at 223km and 213km respectively.

But the journey time from Lille to CDG takes only 60 mins with one stop on the way. From CDG to Le Man's takes about double the time with just 2 stops but involves navigating a route through Paris.

So the answer is probably not BUT stopping at every station is really not the point of high speed rail. They are capable of exceptional top speeds but they are not like a high performance car, it can take several miles of clear track accelerating to hit top speed and then needs to decelerate gradually for several miles before a stop.

For such a thing to work here decisions would need to be made on stations , say Waterford-KK-Carlow-Dublin only with smaller stops served by more localised link up services to reach those stops and anything in Kildare better served by an extended commuter network.

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote: »

The screenshot is a sample TGV timetable between Lille and Le Mans. Using Paris CDG airport as the mid point they are both roughly the same distance away at 223km and 213km respectively.

But the journey time from Lille to CDG takes only 60 mins with one stop on the way. From CDG to Le Man's takes about double the time with just 2 stops but involves navigating a route through Paris.

So the answer is probably not BUT stopping at every station is really not the point of high speed rail. They are capable of exceptional top speeds but they are not like a high performance car, it can take several miles of clear track accelerating to hit top speed and then needs to decelerate gradually for several miles before a stop.

For such a thing to work here decisions would need to be made on stations , say Waterford-KK-Carlow-Dublin only with smaller stops served by more localised link up services to reach those stops and anything in Kildare better served by an extended commuter network.

wonder how long an express train between waterford and dublin would take?

azimuth17

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

60 mins to Dublin with 4/5 stops along the way I doubt is possible no matter what track upgrades etc are done....? Would even the French TGV’s type trains do 100 odd miles with multiple stops in an hour...??

For clarification I meant a fast train service with a departure every hour from Waterford during business hours. First train at 6am, 7am, 8am, then maybe 9.30,11.30 etc. Last train back to Waterford from Dublin maybe 8.30. A journey time of 90 mins might be possible with selected stops, Kilkenny, Carlow etc?

Wanderer78

azimuth17 wrote: »

For clarification I meant a fast train service with a departure every hour from Waterford during business hours. First train at 6am, 7am, 8am, then maybe 9.30,11.30 etc. Last train back to Waterford from Dublin maybe 8.30. A journey time of 90 mins might be possible with selected stops, Kilkenny, Carlow etc?

its also important to bare in mind, these increased services would also need to be negotiated with employees, and their unions

91wx763

Am I alone in thinking that rail travel iin this thread is being looked at in the wrong direction ? You need a train that gets you at your desk in the office in the North Quays by 0900. 0725 from Dublin gets in at 0939 at present.

Wanderer78

91wx763 wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking that rail travel iin this thread is being looked at in the wrong direction ? You need a train that gets you at your desk in the office in the North Quays by 0900. 0725 from Dublin gets in at 0939 at present.

this is very true, but is high speed, high frequency rail, truly possible to achieve this?

imacman

91wx763 wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking that rail travel iin this thread is being looked at in the wrong direction ? You need a train that gets you at your desk in the office in the North Quays by 0900. 0725 from Dublin gets in at 0939 at present.

Do you really think anybody from Dublin is going to get the train to Waterford to work or go shopping in the NQ no matter how fast it is .

killbillvol2

91wx763 wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking that rail travel iin this thread is being looked at in the wrong direction ? You need a train that gets you at your desk in the office in the North Quays by 0900. 0725 from Dublin gets in at 0939 at present.

I'm wondering how rail travel is relevant to the development at all apart from moving the station.

Wanderer78

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I'm wondering how rail travel is relevant to the development at all apart from moving the station.

its extremely relevant, moving people is gonna be critical for the success of it

killbillvol2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its extremely relevant, moving people is gonna be critical for the success of it

From where to where?

cgcsb

I don't think the train is all that relevant to this development. A future high speed rail system is unlikely to offer direct services to Waterford anyway but it will no doubt mean faster connections to Dublin. If anything it would probably end chat about bringing back Waterford airport since Dublin Airport would be less than 2 hrs from Waterford city centre by rail. Waterford doesn't attract many long distance commutes at present and that's unlikely to change given the low cost of housing in the city.

Wanderer78

killbillvol2 wrote:

From where to where?

To and from as many places as possible, transport infrastructure is absolutely critical in creating prosperity, and our history of investment in this is diabolical, Dublin being a perfect example of how not to do this, not having a direct rail link from the city to the countries main airport is beyond words......

One of the major benefits of this development is that it will more than likely trigger a major increase in funding and building of transport infrastructure in the region, and we all know, we bloody need it, but we have a tendency to default to roads to do so. we can't keep doing this, our rail network has been neglected for decades, and we have to stop defaulting towards roads, which just increases traffic volumes.

Under current conditions, it's our job as citizens to shout and scream for this increase in funding for such infrastructure, we will all benefit, and so to will future generations, and don't mind politicans talking sh1te about deficits, you won’t be fcuking over your kids and grandkids for such borrowing, we re actually fcuking them over by not doing so

Wanderer78

cgcsb wrote:

I don't think the train is all that relevant to this development. A future high speed rail system is unlikely to offer direct services to Waterford anyway but it will no doubt mean faster connections to Dublin. If anything it would probably end chat about bringing back Waterford airport since Dublin Airport would be less than 2 hrs from Waterford city centre by rail. Waterford doesn't attract many long distance commutes at present and that's unlikely to change given the low cost of housing in the city.

Disagree for the reasons given

Deiseen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

To and from as many places as possible, transport infrastructure is absolutely critical in creating prosperity, and our history of investment in this is diabolical, Dublin being a perfect example of how not to do this, not having a direct rail link from the city to the countries main airport is beyond words......

One of the major benefits of this development is that it will more than likely trigger a major increase in funding and building of transport infrastructure in the region, and we all know, we bloody need it, but we have a tendency to default to roads to do so. we can't keep doing this, our rail network has been neglected for decades, and we have to stop defaulting towards roads, which just increases traffic volumes.

Under current conditions, it's our job as citizens to shout and scream for this increase in funding for such infrastructure, we will all benefit, and so to will future generations, and don't mind politicans talking sh1te about deficits, you won’t be fcuking over your kids and grandkids for such borrowing, we re actually fcuking them over by not doing so

Welcome to the thread Wanderer

Wanderer78

Deiseen wrote:

Welcome to the thread Wanderer

Always been here, gimme a chance, as far as I can see, our rent-seeking issues are still largely unaddressed

killbillvol2

Wanderer78 wrote: »

To and from as many places as possible, transport infrastructure is absolutely critical in creating prosperity, and our history of investment in this is diabolical, Dublin being a perfect example of how not to do this, not having a direct rail link from the city to the countries main airport is beyond words......

One of the major benefits of this development is that it will more than likely trigger a major increase in funding and building of transport infrastructure in the region, and we all know, we bloody need it, but we have a tendency to default to roads to do so. we can't keep doing this, our rail network has been neglected for decades, and we have to stop defaulting towards roads, which just increases traffic volumes.

Under current conditions, it's our job as citizens to shout and scream for this increase in funding for such infrastructure, we will all benefit, and so to will future generations, and don't mind politicans talking sh1te about deficits, you won’t be fcuking over your kids and grandkids for such borrowing, we re actually fcuking them over by not doing so

You didn't answer my question though.

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

To and from as many places as possible...

killbillvol2 wrote: »

You didn't answer my question though.

thought i did

Asdfgh2020

91wx763 wrote: »

Am I alone in thinking that rail travel iin this thread is being looked at in the wrong direction ? You need a train that gets you at your desk in the office in the North Quays by 0900. 0725 from Dublin gets in at 0939 at present.

Express trains In each direction simultaneously is hardly possible as Isn’t The majority of the track ‘single carriageway’ meaning there would be a ‘head on collision’ somewhere around Carlow...😀😀

Harry Palmr

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

Express trains In each direction simultaneously is hardly possible as Isn’t The majority of the track ‘single carriageway’ meaning there would be a ‘head on collision’ somewhere around Carlow...😀😀

You can have two trains in opposite directions with a short section of double track, somewhere near Carlow!