€300M Investment into Waterford City

Asdfgh2020

vriesmays wrote: »

Why does Waterford need a 17-floor apartment block and another cinema.

Because someone is obviously willing to take the risk.....? Unlikely to be done ‘just for the craic’....:??

Wanderer78

smellyoldboot wrote: »

Sure the Quay has been dying years and will continue to do so without this development. We can't just pause and wait for existing businesses to get it together. Maybe some stern competition across the river will bring about improvements on the South Quays, or maybe not but if that's the case it was doomed to failure eventually in any case, and development just expedited the demise.

unfortunately we ve convinced ourselves that this kind of thinking is acceptable, its fine to allow monopoly forces to monopolise, it debunks the whole idea of rising tides immediately! we need to make sure those that will be negatively affected by this, are protected, we dont need to help create a hunger games situation, which ultimately ends up in radical election outcomes!

Wanderer78

Asdfgh2020 wrote: »

Because someone is obviously willing to take the risk.....? Unlikely to be done ‘just for the craic’....:??

even though they are taking significant risk, theyre not taking on as much as you think, major developers have a higher chance of gaining state support and funding, if things look like theyre tanking, theyve already moved the risk off their own balance sheets, by selling these properties

batman75

I can understand the leisure and residential side of the development. But retail is a curious one. I believe the pandemic will and has altered the patterns of shopping for good from the physical experience to the virtual. Time will tell.

Wanderer78

batman75 wrote: »

I can understand the leisure and residential side of the development. But retail is a curious one. I believe the pandemic will and has altered the patterns of shopping for good from the physical experience to the virtual. Time will tell.

maybe, but we ve no idea whats gonna happen after covid, this is some achievement though, this will truly put waterford on the map, it ll create an astonishing amount of economic activities here, jobs etc

batman75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe, but we ve no idea whats gonna happen after covid, this is some achievement though, this will truly put waterford on the map, it ll create an astonishing amount of economic activities here, jobs etc

Waterford for the size of the city (in Irish terms anyway) has vastly underperformed and the city centre is uninspiring to put it politely from a shopping experience. I think any talk of rising boats vis a vis the existing retail core is optimistic at best. Revamping the existing core in terms of retail would have made more sense. By all means develop leisure and residential on the other side of the river.

For the sake of the city I hope this is the panacea you expect it to be but I am sceptical. Not anti development or jobs. The irony is their is already an empty shopping centre up the road in Ferrybank. The authorities just don't learn do they.

Christy Browne

batman75 wrote: »

Waterford for the size of the city (in Irish terms anyway) has vastly underperformed and the city centre is uninspiring to put it politely from a shopping experience. I think any talk of rising boats vis a vis the existing retail core is optimistic at best. Revamping the existing core in terms of retail would have made more sense. By all means develop leisure and residential on the other side of the river.

For the sake of the city I hope this is the panacea you expect it to be but I am sceptical. Not anti development or jobs. The irony is their is already an empty shopping centre up the road in Ferrybank. The authorities just don't learn do they.

Difference being the shopping centre up the road is in County Kilkenny and is a 30 minute walk along two main roads and across a bridge from the clock tower. This development links in with the city centre seamlessly.

PTH2009

Great news

I imagine heavy work will be started by next summer ?

Wanderer78

batman75 wrote: »

Waterford for the size of the city (in Irish terms anyway) has vastly underperformed and the city centre is uninspiring to put it politely from a shopping experience. I think any talk of rising boats vis a vis the existing retail core is optimistic at best. Revamping the existing core in terms of retail would have made more sense. By all means develop leisure and residential on the other side of the river.

For the sake of the city I hope this is the panacea you expect it to be but I am sceptical. Not anti development or jobs. The irony is their is already an empty shopping centre up the road in Ferrybank. The authorities just don't learn do they.

i do agree with you to a degree, there will be negatives with this project, which i suspect wont be dealt with at all, or will be very badly, we certainly have a history of that, this will more than likely cause a fairly rapid rise in inequality in the region, which will be very noticable in our property needs, but you have to hand it to all those involved, its one hell of an achievement. i try not get too rapped up in utopias such as rising tides, its not our reality at all, but fair play to all involved. i actually think theres a very good chance now, ferrybank will be occupied now, a demand has just been created for it

azimuth17

batman75 wrote: »

Waterford for the size of the city (in Irish terms anyway) has vastly underperformed and the city centre is uninspiring to put it politely from a shopping experience. I think any talk of rising boats vis a vis the existing retail core is optimistic at best. Revamping the existing core in terms of retail would have made more sense. By all means develop leisure and residential on the other side of the river.

For the sake of the city I hope this is the panacea you expect it to be but I am sceptical. Not anti development or jobs. The irony is their is already an empty shopping centre up the road in Ferrybank. The authorities just don't learn do they.

We all hope the same, although the Michael Street site is include din development proposals. Apropos the Ferrybank Shopping Centre, it must be remembered that it is in the functional area of County Kilkenny, albeit on the very boundary of Waterford city. My understanding, having had a peripheral involvement at the time, is that the Retail Planning Guidelines specified a district shopping centre (Superquinn on Tramore Road for instance) for Ferrybank but Kilkenny CoCo "invented" a new "town centre" designation for that part of Ferrybank in their area (the built up area has always been in Waterford city) and tried to legitimise a "town centre" shopping development, despite many previous An Bord Pleanala rulings that Ferrybank was a suburb of Waterford city. As I understand it, Ferrybank Shopping Centre simply could not open on that basis.

batman75

azimuth17 wrote: »

We all hope the same, although the Michael Street site is include din development proposals. Apropos the Ferrybank Shopping Centre, it must be remembered that it is in the functional area of County Kilkenny, albeit on the very boundary of Waterford city. My understanding, having had a peripheral involvement at the time, is that the Retail Planning Guidelines specified a district shopping centre (Superquinn on Tramore Road for instance) for Ferrybank but Kilkenny CoCo "invented" a new "town centre" designation for that part of Ferrybank in their area (the built up area has always been in Waterford city) and tried to legitimise a "town centre" shopping development, despite many previous An Bord Pleanala rulings that Ferrybank was a suburb of Waterford city. As I understand it, Ferrybank Shopping Centre simply could not open on that basis.

A big problem with planning in Ireland is the development fees local authorities get from developments. Local authorities are often dependent on such levies to fund services. This put in danger the degree of scrutiny and overall thinking as to the viability and sensibility of any developments.

BBM77

batman75 wrote: »

A big problem with planning in Ireland is the development fees local authorities get from developments. Local authorities are often dependent on such levies to fund services. This put in danger the degree of scrutiny and overall thinking as to the viability and sensibility of any developments.

Can you not just enjoy the great news in this frankly ****e year? This is just the same thing we got when city square was being developed. “You’ll kill the existing shops”, the reality is the opposite happened, their business went up.

batman75

BBM77 wrote: »

Can you not just enjoy the great news in this frankly ****e year? This is just the same thing we got when city square was being developed. “You’ll kill the existing shops”, the reality is the opposite happened, their business went up.

If you look back through my posts I clearly state I am not anti job or anti development. I wish only good for Waterford as a city. I have my reservations which I also clearly state. I hope the optimism is reflected in the reality. City Square if anything is a salutary lesson in what can happen when the newest thing eventually becomes passe.

Harry Palmr

The Ferrybank shopping centre was a blatent spolier by Kil Coco and while it's something of a blot on the landscape I'm glad it's sat there as a constant reminder of thier mendacious folly.

JimWinters

batman75 wrote: »

Waterford for the size of the city (in Irish terms anyway) has vastly underperformed and the city centre is uninspiring to put it politely from a shopping experience. I think any talk of rising boats vis a vis the existing retail core is optimistic at best. Revamping the existing core in terms of retail would have made more sense. By all means develop leisure and residential on the other side of the river.

For the sake of the city I hope this is the panacea you expect it to be but I am sceptical. Not anti development or jobs. The irony is their is already an empty shopping centre up the road in Ferrybank. The authorities just don't learn do they.

Good points on the face of it Batman but when you look at the scale of the build, literally the entire length of the quay, it just wouldn't be possible to do this without leveling the entire historic south quay or city centre. It also wouldn't be economical to do so, and the archeology in the city centre would cause serious issues. The 2,500 (mainly office)jobs this development brings to the city centre is going to revitalise the area with people going for lunch and after work pints. There's ample room for smaller retailers, cafes etc with an extra 2500 people working in the area. Remember, the entrance to the new shopping centre will about the same distance from the clock tower as the Book Centre.



Saying the empty Ferrybank is up the road isn't all that true, it's a 2.8km walk from the city centre crossing the old bridge which is about the same as having it out past John's Park on the Outer Ring Road. The entrance to the North Quays Shopping centre is going to be just over 300 meters from the entrance to Penneys. The footfall will go both ways. People will visit Waterford to shop and when they do they're not just going to go to the North Quays and go home...

mayordenis

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i do agree with you to a degree, there will be negatives with this project, which i suspect wont be dealt with at all, or will be very badly, we certainly have a history of that, this will more than likely cause a fairly rapid rise in inequality in the region, which will be very noticable in our property needs, but you have to hand it to all those involved, its one hell of an achievement. i try not get too rapped up in utopias such as rising tides, its not our reality at all, but fair play to all involved. i actually think theres a very good chance now, ferrybank will be occupied now, a demand has just been created for it

Have you put into your modelling annexing a massive suberb into the city centre? I think the biggest chance of rising inequalities is most likely from a returning influx of newly work-from-home employees on 'dublin' wages. We can't hold everything in balance, especially when the balance is a fairly low base. Residential property prices will have counter-acting forces from this, a large developer anticipating a return and less brown field sites, balanced I would suggest, given the dearth, against one of the largest supply increases in decades.

You have to consider so many forces, it can't be boiled down to rents and wealth extraction, the latter a massively loaded term.

PTH2009

Hoepfully there's not a mass Viking burial ground or anything like that found over there that will hold up construction

Flow Motion

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hoepfully there's not a mass Viking burial ground or anything like that found over there that will hold up construction

Sounds like a hex to me Given the crazy year it has been to date nothing would surprise me. There is bound to be some sort of ancient stuff lurking in the depths over there.

aziz

Flow Motion wrote: »

Sounds like a hex to me Given the crazy year it has been to date nothing would surprise me. There is bound to be some sort of ancient stuff lurking in the depths over there.

Knowing our luck it probably be a ancient Indian burial ground😁

914

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hoepfully there's not a mass Viking burial ground or anything like that found over there that will hold up construction

Doubt it seen as the majority of the North Quays are built over the river banks. Anything sitting under that will be well gone.

914

batman75 wrote: »

The danger is the existing commercial building stock on the south side of the river becomes even more vacant and the centre of the town moves north of the river. Instead of new build it would have made more sense to make use of existing structures rather than simply moving the epicentre of retail trade in the town centre.

Not sure. Currently the South East has no focal or major shopping centre. McDonagh Junction and City Square probably being the two biggest.

Neither would really attract you to visit either Waterford or Kilkenny.

Having a focal shopping centre should increase visitors, Ireland 2040 plan should see population grow therefore we should an over spill into existing units.

After all The tower, Granville, bridge hotel and fitwilton are all positioned on the south quays which should increase passing trade.

Dunmoreroader

azimuth17 wrote: »

We all hope the same, although the Michael Street site is include din development proposals. Apropos the Ferrybank Shopping Centre, it must be remembered that it is in the functional area of County Kilkenny, albeit on the very boundary of Waterford city. My understanding, having had a peripheral involvement at the time, is that the Retail Planning Guidelines specified a district shopping centre (Superquinn on Tramore Road for instance) for Ferrybank but Kilkenny CoCo "invented" a new "town centre" designation for that part of Ferrybank in their area (the built up area has always been in Waterford city) and tried to legitimise a "town centre" shopping development, despite many previous An Bord Pleanala rulings that Ferrybank was a suburb of Waterford city. As I understand it, Ferrybank Shopping Centre simply could not open on that basis.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The Ferrybank shopping centre was a blatent spolier by Kil Coco and while it's something of a blot on the landscape I'm glad it's sat there as a constant reminder of thier mendacious folly.

Should have had a planning tribunal all of it's own, the shenanigan's that went on with that white elephant.
Delighted with todays news, look forward to watching our gleaming new flagship destination experience rise up from the dereliction like a great Phoenix (no not him)!
Allah akbar!

Dunmoreroader

Dexpat wrote: »

Yeah I suppose that's what it comes down to now. I can't fault the developers so far but it's time to 'walk the walk' now and deliver it.

Any chance of changing the thread title to reflect the actual value of the investment? It seems to be well over double the €300m estimate when the project was first mooted.

+1

Dunmoreroader

From 2017:

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Just checking the date!

Ya still checking the date QuietFella? :rolleyes:

Wanderer78

mayordenis wrote: »

Have you put into your modelling annexing a massive suberb into the city centre? I think the biggest chance of rising inequalities is most likely from a returning influx of newly work-from-home employees on 'dublin' wages. We can't hold everything in balance, especially when the balance is a fairly low base. Residential property prices will have counter-acting forces from this, a large developer anticipating a return and less brown field sites, balanced I would suggest, given the dearth, against one of the largest supply increases in decades.

You have to consider so many forces, it can't be boiled down to rents and wealth extraction, the latter a massively loaded term.

one of the fastest methods of causing a rise in inequality is raising property and land prices quickly, which in itself is whats called 'rent seeking', this serves little or no value to society, but to only the rentiers, primarily the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), in the modern economy, all explained very well in the times article below. i will agree with you though, another element of this will be the influx of those individuals that have more capital coming with them, thus having access to more credit, which in turn, is the true dictator of the price of property and land. this will more than likely put more pressure on the local younger generations, particularly in relation to their property needs, we have to offset these issues, or we could find many young people struggling to get access to property markets very quickly. i have to hand it to cass, at least he is trying to make sure the government are deeply involved here, its great to see hes trying to get them to realise the potential in renovating existing older dwellings in the region, but my fear is, many younger folks are gonna end up fcuked here, in regards property and low waged jobs, primarily in the retail and services sectors. many of these folks are already getting trapped in these sectors, and unable to get access to property markets, some in fact are actually heading back to the family home, being unable to maintain their access to property markets. its extremely important to remember, as inequality rises, it deeply affects whats called 'social mobility', the ability of people to move up social classes. its also important to realise, theres a big difference between rent and rent seeking, the latter being highly extractive, particularly towards the real economy

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/ireland-s-housing-crisis-in-five-revealing-graphs-1.4150332

Gavlor

Wanderer78 wrote: »

one of the fastest methods of causing a rise in inequality is raising property and land prices quickly, which in itself is whats called 'rent seeking', this serves little or no value to society, but to only the rentiers, primarily the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), in the modern economy, all explained very well in the times article below. i will agree with you though, another element of this will be the influx of those individuals that have more capital coming with them, thus having access to more credit, which in turn, is the true dictator of the price of property and land. this will more than likely put more pressure on the local younger generations, particularly in relation to their property needs, we have to offset these issues, or we could find many young people struggling to get access to property markets very quickly. i have to hand it to cass, at least he is trying to make sure the government are deeply involved here, its great to see hes trying to get them to realise the potential in renovating existing older dwellings in the region, but my fear is, many younger folks are gonna end up fcuked here, in regards property and low waged jobs, primarily in the retail and services sectors. many of these folks are already getting trapped in these sectors, and unable to get access to property markets, some in fact are actually heading back to the family home, being unable to maintain their access to property markets. its extremely important to remember, as inequality rises, it deeply affects whats called 'social mobility', the ability of people to move up social classes. its also important to realise, theres a big difference between rent and rent seeking, the latter being highly extractive, particularly towards the real economy

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/ireland-s-housing-crisis-in-five-revealing-graphs-1.4150332

Have a night off.

batman75

914 wrote: »

Not sure. Currently the South East has no focal or major shopping centre. McDonagh Junction and City Square probably being the two biggest.

Neither would really attract you to visit either Waterford or Kilkenny.

Having a focal shopping centre should increase visitors, Ireland 2040 plan should see population grow therefore we should an over spill into existing units.

After all The tower, Granville, bridge hotel and fitwilton are all positioned on the south quays which should increase passing trade.

Because of online shopping going to a city to shop will over time dwindle apart from food shopping. I used love going to Dublin to look around Hodges Figgis and Waterstones. With online that experience isn't the same now as virtually anything can be got online.

For this development to work it is going to have to offer an enjoyable day out with nice eateries, leisure options and shops like M & S and H & M etc.

Harry Palmr

batman75 wrote: »

For this development to work it is going to have to offer an enjoyable day out with nice eateries, leisure options and shops like M & S and H & M etc.

That's what this is about. "Destination shopping" a la Dundrum and Kildare Village. You are going to be invited to spend at least a few hours there esp if you've arrived by train or coach to the shiny transport hub. Take in the shop, a meal, a wander about the rooftop garden etc!*


* no idea if there will be a rooftop garden.

PTH2009

Almost got sick listening to Deise AM

The amount of self praise and slapping on the back of the politicians was a bit OTT. Swear they single handily responsible for getting the funds

ExoPolitic

PTH2009 wrote: »

Almost got sick listening to Deise AM

The amount of self praise and slapping on the back of the politicians was a bit OTT. Swear they single handily responsible for getting the funds

I notice John Cummins crawled out from under his rock and plastered his name allll over this one...