€300M Investment into Waterford City

fuzzy dunlop

He's a Gas one all right! The nonsense he comes out with will never mask reality and that is Waterford is more important to County Kilkenny than Kilkenny City is. As far as "hitching their wagon to Dublin" is concerned that too is utterly dependent on Waterford. Their recent fintech jobs would have been impossible without TSSG which they are extremely quiet about. Like the fact that Belview Port is a terminal of the PORT OF WATERFORD. The regionalism he is in denial about exists and always did and Waterford was always the center. The county town as he calls it twenty two ago  had a functional urban area with more people than the whole of Kilkenny has now and then some. The population in the same area now has gone up by 25%.  

https://www1.oecd.org/cfe/regional-policy/functional-urban-areas-all-ireland.pdf

Try and find Kilkenny in that  report. You won't! All Road High has is wishful thinking! We have recognition!



"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Deiseen wrote: »

road_high wrote: »

Deiseen wrote: »

I agree that there should be more cohesion in the region between all the counties but its quiet obvious that the other counties (particularly Kilkenny) refuse to buy into Waterfords status.

We literally have guys on here from Kilkenny all the time (road high being main culprit) trying to convince us that Waterford is too big for its boots and that everyone in the south east should just commute to Dublin for work. He was even on the Carlow board trying to convince everyone that WIT should never be allowed become a Uni. There's a phrase for that attitude and its called cutting your nose off to spite your face. This is why we don't have a top class hospital, a university and an unemployment issue in the south east because he is not alone with this attitude.  People in Waterford can be guilty of this too but its more organised and militant in Kilkenny.

This is why the whole region has suffered.

I would never begrudge Kilkenny getting anything but it seems many in Kilkenny are very begrudging of the little piece of the pie that Waterford/South east receives.

Oh go way would ya. Like I keep saying, posters are absolutely obsessed with kilkenny and assuming dominance over the rest of the SE. This is why this so called SE region is an utter farce, people like you and your incessant BS forcing us into something we aren't interested in and has never worked.
I never said everyone "should commute to Dublin". I'm just realistic enough in a very small country to realize that a place like Kilkenny needs to hitch itself to the capital city which is the driver the Irish economy and where all the jobs and investment follow. Not glorified county towns that happen to be closer.

Thanks ever so much for coming on here and proving my point!

robcass78

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Let's face it we'll all feel a bit better when we actually get some clear unequivocal news about the start dates for Michael Street and the NQs.

How about this then: Completion of NQ CP's (conditions) is July, which is driven by CIE leadtimes to agree designs.

Following CP's, Michael St build starts. That will be a 1 year build, as it's relatively small, but a potential hiccup to that is bats; the planning CP is that the bats, resident in the carpark and/or elsewhere, can't be disrupted during mating season.

In parallel, detailed designs for NQ take 6-9 months.

That means building starts April 2019, completes in April 2021, with 3 month for brands & tenant fit-out. Opening then is July 2021.

Here's the realism; Michael St requires 200 construction workers to live somewhere. Or 100 homes. There's not the housing build rate to meet that as city & county builds far below the existing, significantly constrained, demand (800 a year); it builds 248 homes a year in city & county, with only 169 in pipeline for 18.

After that, NQ requires 800 construction workers in 2019 assuming we go with standard approaches. Again, where do contractors a) source that volume and b) home & house them, given the above house build rates?

That construction aspect is short-term and those constraints can be fixed through new-to-Ireland techniques; "where there is a will, there is a way."

The potential for growth is immense; the South east will grow at least 7% a year until 2030. Why? What with the South East already having 40% less retail space per capita than other regions (about 50,000 m2, or in employment terms, about 5,000 people), the immediate catchment within 0-20' minutes drive growing 50% by 2030 (about 43,905 people; twice the size of Kilkenny), the fact that the net disposable income (income after living expenses in the South East is already higher than West & South West, there is no regional development in the South East (the only region without one), the train & bus & greenway delivering 3m footfall / passengers through it (no other hub/development is as connected/convenient), the South East is only just cottoning onto Tourism (South East has 400m less tourism than other regions despite proximity to Dublin, or in employment terms, that's about 4,000 jobs) and the population growth in the NPF of 2.2% a year. That population growth doesn't consider that 5,000 young people have left the region each year for 10 years (50,000) which has supressed population growth and

Combine the existing retail underindex and Tourism underindex and that's 10,000 jobs, directly, or, the root cause of the unemployment underindex to national levels. Indirectly, 1 job in retail or tourism in the community supports 4 jobs (which is why the spend/leakage outside the region of ALL retail is closer to 667m in economic impact, or 6,700 jobs in the region, directly, or 24,000 indirectly).

The whole principle behind the investment is to invest in the local & regional supply chain; designers, architects, construction co's, then once open, the brilliant up & coming regional businesses as not bringing just the international brands like Zara, Superdry, Lego but given the unique food & beverage strength in the region and much higher spend on leisure experiences in Ireland compared to Europe, simply having "clothing" doesn't work in the best developments anymore. It's now about experience & tech, and will become more & more about it that by 2030, 50% of spend will be online with the retail aspect simply experience centres.

We don't deliver things for now; we create based on what's right for 2040 as developments have to develop communities for the better.

On that note about Communities, it's not all retail; there's the prime offices that will have at least 800 jobs present (which is less than 5% of office demand needed in the city by 2030), the House of crystal/tourism experience which can get to 2m visitors by 2030, the 300 apartments which is only 3% of housing demand and likely to be snapped up by the office workers (as why waste 10k a year on car costs when you can walk to work and into the city, and you've go-car and EV rentals downstairs for the weekend trips; put that 10k into your pocket please!), and then there is the 200 key 4* hotel to house the tourists, as there's a shortage of about 4-5 4* hotels by 2030.

It's great to read the positivity and see such switched on comments; wouldn't expect less from a well-educated nation.

Anyone on here thinking this hasn't been researched to the n'th degree for 18 months, by a data-driven business, is mistaken, or those commenting on it "not working" haven't the experience of deliver 25 urban regeneration projects of scale in their history across 20 countries.

If you think it won't work, go look at Manchester, Liverpool One, Dubai, Riyadh, Nottingham or even Dublin Docklands.

It's in Ireland's 2040 vision. It's in the NPF. It's in the forthcoming capital plan. It's in Leo's 2030 vision. It's a really solid Council behind it. It's got the community support (I think people can't believe it yet, but they will shortly when all the roadshows and marketing starts to ask people to get involved as it's our city & region and therefore our future, not least for the 6,700 jobs who'll be interested in "when can I get a job in creating our region's future").

Yes, I am from Fawaz Alhokair, and yes, I've not felt the pain people suffered through the boom-bust-boom, and yes I am from Waterford but I'm not biased but I am proud of the South East, and yes, we are looking at other developments in Ireland but Waterford is first as the Flagship to show how we do things and yes, I'm going to be proud when it's all done and the kids can say "we made the city & region a great place to live, work & play."

robcass78

BBM77 wrote: »

No, separate project.

Not quite separate but inter-related; Seamus needs the roads developed and built out. He needs the tourism growth to enable Ard-Ri's critical mass.

We all want to work together to see Waterford & South East grow, so Seamus (who also owns Waterford Castle) and I meet quarterly to work on how to grow tourism, and have formed a Tourism group across all the hotels to pool funding to grow marketing awareness of the South East. No point wasting money on the same marketing, when the goal has to be to grow visitors to the region & city. Waterford only get's 280,000 international visitors and Galway, a smaller catchment than Waterford, get's 1m. So, we've 5-fold growth ahead if we follow Galway's lead. And South East has better infrastructure (closer to Dublin) and miles better weather so no reason we can't, expect mindset.

Deiseen

robcass78 wrote: »

BBM77 wrote: »

No, separate project.

Not quite separate but inter-related; Seamus needs the roads developed and built out. He needs the tourism growth to enable Ard-Ri's critical mass.

We all want to work together to see Waterford & South East grow, so Seamus (who also owns Waterford Castle) and I meet quarterly to work on how to grow tourism, and have formed a Tourism group across all the hotels to pool funding to grow marketing awareness of the South East. No point wasting money on the same marketing, when the goal has to be to grow visitors to the region & city. Waterford only get's 280,000 international visitors and Galway, a smaller catchment than Waterford, get's 1m. So, we've 5-fold growth ahead if we follow Galway's lead. And South East has better infrastructure (closer to Dublin) and miles better weather so no reason we can't, expect mindset.

Great read Rob, really good information!

Must be great to be working with Fawaz Alhokair on a project in your hometown!

Harry Palmr

Interesting read.

Hard to match Galways tourist numbers, they have the Quiet Man, Michael D Higgins, Connemara and Ed Sheeran! . Waterford has always lacked the kind of cultural focal points that transcend the local market. It's hard to invent something out of thin air that can gain traction. Vikings and Normans is our lot and we're in competition with Dublin in particular.

Johnboy1951

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Interesting read.

Hard to match Galways tourist numbers, they have the Quiet Man, Michael D Higgins, Connemara and Ed Sheeran! . Waterford has always lacked the kind of cultural focal points that transcend the local market. It's hard to invent something out of thin air that can gain traction. Vikings and Normans is our lot and we're in competition with Dublin in particular.

We used to have the likes of Val Doonican and Gilbert O'Sullivan

Road-Hog

Great to hear such detail from someone who is actually involved/on front line......hopefully it will help quell some of the whining/moaning by locals (kk and w reg) who can see nothing only glass half empty......what are the chances of an objector delaying the SDZ or CPO process and if so how long will the ‘al hokhir group’ stay on the pitch....?

robcass78

Road-Hog wrote: »

Great to hear such detail from someone who is actually involved/on front line......hopefully it will help quell some of the whining/moaning by locals (kk and w reg) who can see nothing only glass half empty......what are the chances of an objector delaying the SDZ or CPO process and if so how long will the ‘al hokhir group’ stay on the pitch....?

Front-line indeed; if things go wrong I take the blame. When things go right, it seems politicians and IDA step in at last minute after 18 months of work to take some credit for doing SFA...however the Council are superb.

KK are supportive. Wex supportive. Have been around them all, and importantly, to businesses.

Only a fool doesn't see the potential in the region.

Chances are high, but that's normal.

The submissions were on the whole really positive, which was brilliant to see that 99% support, particularly from government departments.

In practical terms, a submission to ABP will have to be bullet-proof to see delay, as Council & us have been following ABP guidelines since day one. If anytime, we're leading on practices on community/green spaces with over 400,000 sq ft of green & common places, with a huge focus on sustainability and access.

Fawaz Al Hokair (not Alhokair Group; former being 10bn multinational group, latter being mono-country single billion group).

I'm not worried by objections. In an ideal world, I'd like whoever objects to say to the 6,700 getting jobs to say to their faces on why they are holding things up. "Sorry, no jobs for all of you until I have my say."

robcass78

Deiseen wrote: »

Great read Rob, really good information!

Must be great to be working with Fawaz Alhokair on a project in your hometown!

Ha; not building a mixed use development in Dungarvan my home town.

But have enjoyed creating mini-cities internationally from scratch; as my kids say "Daddy does drawings and a lot of meetings, then makes it real". Now, it's time to give back closer to home and put the South East on the European map.

Waterford's a city in a region with phenomenal potential and the more I listen to others on their plans, the more exciting it gets.

Road-Hog

Just to clarify, I was more referring to the negative keyboard warrior type guys that frequent this forum and give their ill informed/taxi driver views on the development rather than the other local councils and business views.........also great to hear that Waterford Council is playing such a vital and supportive role...again contrary to what the guys/gals on street think.

BBM77

robcass78 wrote: »

Ha; not building a mixed use development in Dungarvan my home town.

But have enjoyed creating mini-cities internationally from scratch; as my kids say "Daddy does drawings and a lot of meetings, then makes it real". Now, it's time to give back closer to home and put the South East on the European map.

Waterford's a city in a region with phenomenal potential and the more I listen to others on their plans, the more exciting it gets.

Really excellent posts Rob.

Road-Hog

BBM77 wrote: »

Really excellent posts Rob.

Food for thought for all the detractors who regularly quench any positivity on this thread

gobo99

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests/prominent-businessmen-reach-settlements-in-saudi-corruption-probe-source-idUSKBN1FF2TK

Could you shed some light on this for us Rob. Is this the guy involved in the Waterford deal?

Would you see any problems with the same group controling the two biggest retail offerings in the same city?

fuzzy dunlop

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Interesting read.

Hard to match Galways tourist numbers, they have the Quiet Man, Michael D Higgins, Connemara and Ed Sheeran! . Waterford has always lacked the kind of cultural focal points that transcend the local market. It's hard to invent something out of thin air that can gain traction. Vikings and Normans is our lot and we're in competition with Dublin in particular.

They are not being invented out of thin air. They are all ready there and unlike Galway they are genuine. The problem is they are not marketed as as like everything else the state marketing through tourism Ireland is subject to political interference. Waterford has a massive amount of urban heritage. The Viking Triangle is only one example of what can be repeated with our Georgian and Victorian/Edwardian built heritage. The O'Connell St. proposals are also a step forward and promise to invigorate authentic areas like Ballybricken. Mount Congreve and Curaghmore will also come into their own eventually and connect the city offering to things like the Greenway , Copper coast and Munster Vales. Galway might be getting numbers for now but keep in mind they have managed ro turn genuine Irish heritage into the Temple Bar of the West. There is no reason to think tourists will not finally wake up to this.

Road-Hog

BBM77 wrote: »

Really excellent posts Rob.

Food for thought for all the detractors who regularly quench any positivity on this thread

robcass78

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

They are not being invented out of thin air. They are all ready there and unlike Galway they are genuine. The problem is they are not marketed as as like everything else the state marketing through tourism Ireland is subject to political interference. Waterford has a massive amount of urban heritage. The Viking Triangle is only one example of what can be repeated with our Georgian and Victorian/Edwardian built heritage. The O'Connell St. proposals are also a step forward and promise to invigorate authentic areas like Ballybricken. Mount Congreve and Curaghmore will also come into their own eventually and connect the city offering to things like the Greenway , Copper coast and Munster Vales. Galway might be getting numbers for now but keep in mind they have managed ro turn genuine Irish heritage into the Temple Bar of the West. There is no reason to think tourists will not finally wake up to this.

Can't be depending on government to drive things; Businesses drive, Government create policies to support growth.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Interesting read.

Hard to match Galways tourist numbers, they have the Quiet Man, Michael D Higgins, Connemara and Ed Sheeran! . Waterford has always lacked the kind of cultural focal points that transcend the local market. It's hard to invent something out of thin air that can gain traction. Vikings and Normans is our lot and we're in competition with Dublin in particular.

Interesting; Galway didn't have much tourism 15-20 years ago.

Greenway just did 300,000 visitors in first 8 months of opening, and best Tourism asset as voted by Councillors ranked number 2 in UK & Ireland straight out the doors with no marketing. Even pessimistic Faillte see it with huge (500k - 1m) visitors a year.

Copper Coast (Unesco site with no marketing), Curraghmore, Kilkenny Castle, Coumshingaun, Mahon Falls, JFK, amazing food & leisure experiences from the whole region with best-in-Europe quality, both Quays have stunning potential, Reginalds Tower, Beaches, award winning Festivals which have 300-500,000 attendees, a marina; all of these are as experiences, but the most important aspect is mindset; tourism requires great service mindset as the Irish "friendliness" is what people come from.

Dublin isn't the competition; it's a short hop so it should be connected for the 5m visitors to pop down on train or car, and besides it's far more expensive, with less authenticity. Far less "friendliness" and certainly less "value for money".

Take another example of who does it well alongside Galway. Killarney. With a catchment the size of a small town like Kilkenny (20-25k), they do 1m visitors a year, whilst Kilkenny and W'ford do similar numbers. That's 40 tourists per capita. Waterford city & county is on 1:1 ratio. Galway city on 8:1.

Waterford & South East has all the tourism & experiences. As someone who looks at things as "why not" instead of "why" I see it doing 2m by 2030. But then, we'll put money to market it that no other city is doing, as a few hundred k on marketing on tourism is money well spent to bring in tourism trade, as it's all incremental trade, which is incremental jobs...about 4,000 of them, as I said before. Which is more than all the pharma jobs in the city, although on slightly lower salaries, but nevertheless, I'd prefer the 4,000 are in the region, than having to leave for other regions or countries.

robcass78

gobo99 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests/prominent-businessmen-reach-settlements-in-saudi-corruption-probe-source-idUSKBN1FF2TK

Could you shed some light on this for us Rob. Is this the guy involved in the Waterford deal?

Would you see any problems with the same group controling the two biggest retail offerings in the same city?

Before I answer, what's your take on the above, and why flag two potentially negative points, instead of asking positive questions such as these;

'What's your take one of the largest global urban regenerators coming to Ireland to do similar here; is that a vote of confidence in the city, region & Ireland?"

'Have you seen the 2bn euro worth of developments they are doing in Italy?"

'Why has it been allowed to happen over a large number of years that there 40% less retail space per person in the South East (about 1/2 million square feet of space), at the cost of 5,000 jobs/175m in trade and Council rate income of 15m a year?"

"Did you know some of the retailers in Waterford have some of the highest retail metrics in Ireland, despite the lack of space and footfall (due to leakage and lack of tourism)?"

gobo99

Nice deflection Rob. I was asking you a couple of reasonable questions. You seem to be the one with all the answers.
If you're only here for some back slapping and the usual circle jerk on this foum then I'll leave you to it.

fuzzy dunlop

gobo99 wrote: »

Nice deflection Rob. I was asking you a couple of reasonable questions. You seem to be the one with all the answers.
If you're only here for some back slapping and the usual circle jerk on this foum then I'll leave you to it.

Well you seem to love watching this"circle jerk". Why would Rob have any commentary on it at al considereing whatever the issue was is settled? Maybe you can tell us why you find the story so compelling?

mooseknunkle

gobo99 wrote: »

Nice deflection Rob. I was asking you a couple of reasonable questions. You seem to be the one with all the answers.
If you're only here for some back slapping and the usual circle jerk on this foum then I'll leave you to it.

For once the back slapping is well deserved,nobody asked him to come on here and explain everything he did,this is potentially the biggest thing to ever happen in Waterford and he is involved at the very heart of it ,it's great to get his insight and it's really refreshing to read something so positive on here from someone who is actually in the know.

Road-Hog

gobo99 wrote: »

Nice deflection Rob. I was asking you a couple of reasonable questions. You seem to be the one with all the answers.
If you're only here for some back slapping and the usual circle jerk on this foum then I'll leave you to it.

If I was Rob I wouldn’t be giving you or your queries much traction/attention....language such as ‘circle jerk’ etc says a lot about you......if trying to be taken serious then you should refrain from ‘gutter’ type language.....!

Road-Hog

gobo99 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests/prominent-businessmen-reach-settlements-in-saudi-corruption-probe-source-idUSKBN1FF2TK

Could you shed some light on this for us Rob. Is this the guy involved in the Waterford deal?

Would you see any problems with the same group controling the two biggest retail offerings in the same city?

Very hard to find any ‘developer/business person’ that is 100% squeaky clean......the mighty Apple Corp what is it they have to pay over to us €13 billion. What about the mode of German efficiently VW.....caught rigging emissions testing and fined massive sums...what about all the other products the average person buys.......significant number of clothing producers
Exploit and use cheap Labour until they are caught........primark were in the news not so long ago busiest retailer in Waterford according to some

fuzzy dunlop

Road-Hog wrote: »

gobo99 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-arrests/prominent-businessmen-reach-settlements-in-saudi-corruption-probe-source-idUSKBN1FF2TK

Could you shed some light on this for us Rob. Is this the guy involved in the Waterford deal?

Would you see any problems with the same group controling the two biggest retail offerings in the same city?

Very hard to find any ‘developer/business person’ that is 100% squeaky clean......the mighty Apple Corp what is it they have to pay over to us €13 billion. What about the mode of German efficiently VW.....caught rigging emissions testing and fined massive sums...what about all the other products the average person buys.......significant number of clothing producers
Exploit and use cheap Labour until they are caught........primark were in the news not so long ago busiest retailer in Waterford according to some

The Kilkenny People were doing what they do best as far back as November. Spreading Lies and fear mongering like they did over the boundary issue. The Implication this time being Dundrum and Blanchardstown have something to worry about with the North Quays. Looking for a big brother to help them get the plug pulled for their own self interests.

The same tactic with the boundary extension with their councillors up in Roscommon whipping up the fear that if the Warerford boundary extension went ahead then they would be next. It's 2018 and the expectation is that everyone else has to dance at the crossroads. The vulgar expression is the least of their problems.

Road-Hog

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The Kilkenny People were doing what they do best as far back as November. Spreading Lies and fear mongering like they did over the boundary issue. The Implication this time being Dundrum and Blanchardstown have something to worry about with the North Quays. Looking for a big brother to help them get the plug pulled for their own self interests.

The same tactic with the boundary extension with their councillors up in Roscommon whipping up the fear that if the Warerford boundary extension went ahead then they would be next. It's 2018 and the expectation is that everyone else has to dance at the crossroads. The vulgar expression is the least of their problems.

Fuzzy. Don’t quite follow you. Is your response above in relation to gobo99’s query to rob or my post...? If anyone from Kk or Wx can see the bigger picture for the region then they should be able to drop their anti anything wateRford mantra......but maybe that is too much to ask....?

fuzzy dunlop

I suppose my real point is that they are incapable of seeing the bigger picture. So yes it is tio much to ask.We've been only having this conversation for 40 years. And if they do and get on board then the opppertunists like Phil Hogan will start playing the County Jersey card to the usual suspects. Gobo99 bringing up some "implied" wrongdoing is another tactic to cast a shadow over things. You would swear Ireland only started fumbling in the greasy till when this thing was announced and we were all in the land of saints and scholars up to this point.

How many KK farmers sold their beef to Middle East countries through Waterford Port with no moral conundrums? I bet Road High could? He is after all from that stock! I suspect though he would prefer to bury his head in the sand pretending their is no regional entity. The BS about hitching the wagon to Dublin the "economic driver" is just a veneer to cover the inter county bigotry and an excuse to keep doing the things they have akways done!. Not to mention that it has been proven to be wrong for years now ourside of an accounting exercise. Logic should tell anyone that two strong cities would benefit all in between like the Dublin Belfast corridor does in the North East and relieve a congested Dublin. Instead the atititide is to stop the "Dublin Money" going to Waterford.

mooseknunkle

Fuzzy i think you are mixing road-hog up with road_high

fuzzy dunlop

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Fuzzy i think you are mixing road-hog up with road_high

I'm not. I am referring to High and replying to Hog. Hog seems to think their might be a possibility of a meeting of minds. People like Road High would sell their families to slavery rather than see that happen.

Harry Palmr

Ah nothing like invoking slavery to keep a debate between the ditches!!

Road-Hog

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

I'm not. I am referring to High and replying to Hog. Hog seems to think their might be a possibility of a meeting of minds. People like Road High would sell their families to slavery rather than see that happen.

In the end of the day any of these narrow minded buffoons will have little or no influence on what transpires on the north quays. How many of them made a submission on the SDZ. none I would imagine. How many of them will lodge an appeal to ABP now that the SDZ process has reached the next stage again none I would think.....keyboard warriors is all that they will remain......had a quick look at the KK forum. Don’t see many mentions of the north quays amongst their threads or contributions from deise folk....wouldn’t get too worried about the road_highs of this world really as they are and will remain begrudging and bitter insignificant nobodies

fuzzy dunlop

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ah nothing like invoking slavery to keep a debate between the ditches!!

Well you have to speak their lingo for them to understand 😠Hitler's henchmen and all that!