€300M Investment into Waterford City

Road-Hog

Gardner wrote: »

Fuzzy Fuzzy Fuzzy :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You stated “The Bypass toll was announced in 2001 following the dot.com bubble bursting and the resultant downturn. Cullen was not transport munister then” eh this is what I said above minus the dot.com bubble bursting. And for a matter of fact the “dot.com bubble bursting” played zero impact on funding as stage 1 &2 had been completed and 3&4 where already earmarked and had initial early stages of funding approved. Even on stage 5 the government parted with 300m for the early packages and costs involved in CPO’s. the construction cost mounted to 350m. Cullen failed by not securing the 350m for construction costs while stages 1 to 4 were fully government funded. Simple as that! Just for your benefit CRG didn’t pay one simple iota for any parts of the CPO or early stage Works.

You stated “Likewise the fact that you were at a meeting where the relevant minister was uninvited and information was dissipated” again read what I wrote, I attending the opening not a “meeting” and he was never invited to be “uninvited”.

You stated “Everything else you posted was pretty much on the NRA website for years” excellent im happy for you that you found them now I hope you educate yourself on the matter instead of posting “Opinionated and Selective nonsense!”

You stated “Who would have sone better! Hiding behind Robb's "evasiveness" I do enjoy your spelling and grammar mistakes throughout your post but to answer your question, the simple answer isn’t Ollie Wilkinson or Brendan Kenneally. You have to deal with the cards you were dealt. We can’t go back and say if this person was elected he would have been a good minister (thats simply nonsensical). Cullen was best of a bad bunch ( doesn’t say much about him) in FF locally and when he went onto national level as a minister in various department(s) his incompetence and lack of transparency followed him. Mr Cass either answer the questions or ignore them. simple as that.

This thread is vearing off topic and getting a bit boring........just to clarify a few things......

1. Construction cost of w’ford By pass was circa €270m

2. Waterford bypass was part of a group of 6 pilot ppp contracts selected in 1999.......its was destined to be a toll bridge/road from that day forward. What ministerial role had Martin Cullen in 1999...? I’m not sure.

3. The PPP Co (south link / CRG) are not getting a ‘top up’ payment from government if predicted traffic figures are not achieved.......this is contrary to popular belief but true......limerick tunnel and port Laoise do get ‘top ups’

Gardner

Road-Hog wrote: »

This thread is vearing off topic and getting a bit boring........just to clarify two things......

1. Construction cost of w’ford By pass was circa €270m

2. Waterford bypass was part of a group of 6 pilot ppp contracts selected in 1999.......its was destined to be a toll bridge/road from that they forward. What ministerial role had Martin Cullen in 1999...? I’m not sure.

3. The PPP Co (south link / CRG) are not getting a ‘top up’ payment from government if predicted traffic figures are not achieved.......this is contrary to popular belief but true......limerick tunnel and port Laoise do get ‘top ups’

110% incorrect see above €350m. i'm not even going to ask you what makes think your right because i know your 110% incorrect.

Road-Hog

Gardner wrote: »

110% incorrect see above €350m. i'm not even going to ask you what makes think your right because i know your 110% incorrect.

I can just as easily say you are 200% incorrect. Where are your figures coming from...! Were you the lead QS on the project....?

robtri

your both wrong...

€255 million

and i will quote

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/final-section-of-m9-motorway-opens-today-1.648433

The new route from Kilcullen to Waterford city was developed in five sections:

The Carlow bypass, which opened in May 2008 at a cost of €216 million;

The Suir Bridge and Waterford city bypass, which opened in October 2009 at a cost of €255 million;

The Kilcullen to Carlow motorway, which opened in December 2009 at a cost of €307 million;

The Knocktopher to Waterford city bypass, which opened in June at a cost of €274 million;

Carlow to Knocktopher, which opens this morning and which cost €467 million.

Chiparus

robtri wrote: »

your both wrong...

€255 million

and i will quote

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/final-section-of-m9-motorway-opens-today-1.648433

The new route from Kilcullen to Waterford city was developed in five sections:

The Carlow bypass, which opened in May 2008 at a cost of €216 million;

The Suir Bridge and Waterford city bypass, which opened in October 2009 at a cost of €255 million;

The Kilcullen to Carlow motorway, which opened in December 2009 at a cost of €307 million;

The Knocktopher to Waterford city bypass, which opened in June at a cost of €274 million;

Carlow to Knocktopher, which opens this morning and which cost €467 million.

Seems to be some confusion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/500m-waterford-city-bypass-opens-1.759257

Here the cost is 530 million. But includes the motorway to Kilmeaden:rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/waterfordbypass/

Road-Hog

robtri wrote: »

your both wrong...

€255 million

and i will quote

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/final-section-of-m9-motorway-opens-today-1.648433

The new route from Kilcullen to Waterford city was developed in five sections:

The Carlow bypass, which opened in May 2008 at a cost of €216 million;

The Suir Bridge and Waterford city bypass, which opened in October 2009 at a cost of €255 million;

The Kilcullen to Carlow motorway, which opened in December 2009 at a cost of €307 million;

The Knocktopher to Waterford city bypass, which opened in June at a cost of €274 million;

Carlow to Knocktopher, which opens this morning and which cost €467 million.

I was a bit closer than gonadas......I knew it was under €300m.

Road-Hog

Chiparus wrote: »

Seems to be some confusion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/500m-waterford-city-bypass-opens-1.759257

Here the cost is 530 million. But includes the motorway to Kilmeaden:rolleyes::rolleyes:

http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/waterfordbypass/

The €530 million or €600m which I also recall being bandied about in the media was the overall cost to the PPP Co to design construct and maintain for the 30 year concession period ie commencement of construction which was May /June 2006 to 2036. I think the €600m was the figure that included all the prelim land and legal costs

Aquos76

Unless this thread gets back on topic I’m going to have to close it, let’s get back to the North Quays development and leave all the political stuff and talks of motorway and suir bridge behind us please.

Gardner

Posters using links to media.................. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

stick to the facts and people in the know!

getting back on track with Mr Cass answering a few questions :cool:

TheQuietFella

It will never happen anyway!!!!

curmudgeonly

TheQuietFella wrote: »

It will never happen anyway!!!!

The ball is in ..lol

fuzzy dunlop

Chiparus wrote: »

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

Only because of the toll and this phenomenan is not specific to Waterford. All the inter-urbans have this problem even more acutely. It was government stupidity not the need for the infrastructure.

The Kilcock bypass- You could almost expect tumbleweeds through that stretch of motorway. People would rather spend 30-40mins stuck un a traffic jam in a small village instead.

Even if there was no toll, it is not really useful at all. I take it sometimes but it does not really save time for me gettiing from Ardkeen to the M9

Ah there you go again. Assuming it was built for this. It wasn't. It is a bypass to remove traffic whose destination is not for Waterford. And I remember this being pointed out to you before Chiparus.

And it does relate to the NQ in that sense. If the NQ generates growth as a destination it will be a lot more convenient to access it from Cork and West Waterford via the bypass. The effect that the presence of this infrastructure has had on the ability to attract the investment was probably significant. Though you will not find too many of the spoofers here willing to admit it.

fuzzy dunlop

Gardner wrote: »

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

No Sweetheart you're wrong! You even have your recessions wrong...The Bypass toll was announced in 2001 following the dot.com bubble bursting and the resultant  downturn.  Cullen was not transport munister then. If you think the M9 having no toll has no relevance despite rhe other inter urbans having nor one but two then youbare simply nor credible.

Likewise the fact that you were at a meeting where the relevant minister was uninvited and information was dissipated that this was because he was "unimportant"  should have made you smell a rat!  If nothing else because of the impropriety of it which any "manager" of importamce would be aware of. It was reported that this was an attempt to undermine Cullen which is far more credible.

Everything else you posted was pretty much on the NRA website for years.  But drawings are drawings. You will find drawings and plans in the National Library for a proposed  tram system in Waterford from 1904 and an underground for Dublin from the same period. All nothing without dunding and the funding for the M9 was released imcremetally.

Now you can believe what gou want but the fact isif you check the LAN publications Waterford received huge funding for roads while Cullen was environmemt and transport minister. At some points Waterford City was receiving a budget almost 50% that of Dublin.

Now sweetheart you haven't been a shrinking violet about giving your opinion before even the nonsense ones! So do tell us. Who would have sone better! Hiding behind Robb's "evasiveness" as if he held court with the house of Saud is a red herring like your Cullen story.Your  complaints aboit this is the double standard here.

Fuzzy Fuzzy Fuzzy :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

You stated “The Bypass toll was announced in 2001 following the dot.com bubble bursting and the resultant downturn. Cullen was not transport munister then” eh this is what I said above minus the dot.com bubble bursting. And for a matter of fact the “dot.com bubble bursting” played zero impact on funding as stage 1 &2 had been completed and 3&4 where already earmarked and had initial early stages of funding approved. Even on stage 5 the government parted with 300m for the early packages and costs involved in CPO’s. the construction cost mounted to 350m. Cullen failed by not securing the 350m for construction costs while stages 1 to 4 were fully government funded. Simple as that! Just for your benefit CRG didn’t pay one simple iota for any parts of the CPO or early stage Works.

You stated “Likewise the fact that you were at a meeting where the relevant minister was uninvited and information was dissipated” again read what I wrote, I attending the opening not a “meeting” and he was never invited to be “uninvited”.

You stated “Everything else you posted was pretty much on the NRA website for years” excellent im happy for you that you found them now I hope you educate yourself on the matter instead of posting “Opinionated and Selective nonsense!”

You stated “Who would have sone better! Hiding behind Robb's "evasiveness" I do enjoy your spelling and grammar mistakes throughout your post but to answer your question, the simple answer isn’t Ollie Wilkinson or Brendan Kenneally. You have to deal with the cards you were dealt. We can’t go back and say if this person was elected he would have been a good minister (thats simply nonsensical). Cullen was best of a bad bunch ( doesn’t say much about him) in FF locally and when he went onto national level as a minister in various department(s) his incompetence and lack of transparency followed him. Mr Cass either answer the questions or ignore them. simple as that.

Finally....so Cullen was the best choice after all! That was the whole point of that question! The best of a bad lot argument is a cop out especially if it suggests he was worse than the likes of Brian Cowen, Micky Martin, Willy O'Dea, etc. Or indeed their contemporaries  in FG. Or the fact that we don't have a list system like in other countries or make appointments outside the political street  like in the US. And it ignores that the conventional wisdom  and facts on the ground even now is that "ability" is not the name of the game it is the cabinet position!   Everything else you say is just  semantics and an inability to distinguish plans from outcomes or cause from effect. Or someone who is looking at it solely through the prism of working at a mid level role at best on the project.   Hence the need for the "grammar nazi" straw clutching! The BP toll was a result (effect) in government attempts to raise revenue following the 2001 downturn (cause) which you were completely ignorant of. Whether on not initial funding was approved has no bearing on this being the reason. Likewise just because there was plans, CPO's and other phases complete, this does not reason that funding for final phases were not at risk up until 2009 when the crash (which you got confused with the 2001 event) was underway. It is quite feasible that the political issues still facing Waterford in 2018 could have been getting funding for the last construction phase on top of everything else.     

The BP being integrated into  a phase of the M9 (semantics) from a project management point of view is superfluous to the fact that the M9 is the only inter urban without a  toll. It is wholly naive to think that  Cullen was not instrumental in keeping these things on the political agenda which had they not been would have made the NQ investment a lot more difficult to sell. Let's also not forget that the funding for the  initial  design competition came when the he was junior for the OPW. To all intents this was when this project started to become tangible. If it is completed before 2025 from a starting point of 1998 then for projects of this type, it will be actually be ahead of a typical schedule. The bigger problem for some people here is that it now looks now like the infrastructure investments in and around Waterford since the late 1990's are now achieving the results their proponents said they would. While here you are.....doing a post mortem on a project that has been delivered for years and Martin Cullen not being invited to some obscure meeting...:D Or clutching at some Reuters report as having any substance.

mickmackmcgoo

I see Rob suggesting on Twitter that there were no objections to An Bord Pleanala which is surprising and great news

BBM77

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

I see Rob suggesting on Twitter that there were no objections to An Bord Pleanala which is surprising and great news

That is a surprise but fantastic news. Forgot the deadline for objections was this week. Hopefully another bridge crossed if you pardon the pun.

Max Powers

BBM77 wrote: »

That is a surprise but fantastic news. Forgot the deadline for objections was this week. Hopefully another bridge crossed if you pardon the pun.

We do pardon bbm. I don't know how somene, even connected with the project could know that, don't know much about them but BP seems to be a bit of a mysterious organisation, who's there, making decisions, etc.hopefully, given the importance of this,all clear given asap

BBM77

Max Powers wrote: »

We do pardon bbm. I don't know how somene, even connected with the project could know that, don't know much about them but BP seems to be a bit of a mysterious organisation, who's there, making decisions, etc.hopefully, given the importance of this,all clear given asap

Weekly appeals lists are available on http://www.pleanala.ie/lists/2018/new/index.htm so any appeals would be common knowledge.

An Bord Pleanala is a funny fish alright. There was a case in Knockboy recently that nobody could understand what reason they overturned the planning for. Apparently, they even contradicted themselves in the report!

Christy Browne

Max Powers wrote: »

We do pardon bbm. I don't know how somene, even connected with the project could know that, don't know much about them but BP seems to be a bit of a mysterious organisation, who's there, making decisions, etc.hopefully, given the importance of this,all clear given asap

You can literally go on to pleanala.ie and see that there has not been any appeals, it’s a completely transparent process.

Max Powers

Christy Browne wrote: »

You can literally go on to pleanala.ie and see that there has not been any appeals, it’s a completely transparent process.

Fair play Christy, ye live and learn ey,I didn't know they published objections weekly as they came in.I suppose BP can make calls on things without objections though? Right/wrong

mooseknunkle

So what happens now?

Max Powers

Good news, good bit info on wlr news section.

fricatus

mooseknunkle wrote: »

So what happens now?

Hopefully they build it and we come!

Don't know though - maybe Rob Cass can answer this one as helpfully as he's answered everything else. The planning-permission stage seems to be out of the way now at any rate...

Max Powers

fricatus wrote: »

Hopefully they build it and we come!

Don't know though - maybe Rob Cass can answer this one as helpfully as he's answered everything else. The planning-permission stage seems to be out of the way now at any rate...

Design needs to happen for a kick off, that ain't a case of lashing out some drawings handy it'll take 6+ months at a min I'd guess.presumably other stuff too like those CPOs they're planning.it's a massive step again today.

mickmackmcgoo

Max Powers wrote:

Design needs to happen for a kick off, that ain't a case of lashing out some drawings handy it'll take 6+ months at a min I'd guess.presumably other stuff too like those CPOs they're planning.it's a massive step again today.

Weren't the design consultants appointed the other day?

Max Powers

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Weren't the design consultants appointed the other day?

I think you're right, design for what I don't know.bridge, buildings, infrastructure, don't know

mickmackmcgoo

Max Powers wrote:

I think you're right, design for what I don't know.bridge, buildings, infrastructure, don't know

Just reading they appointed a company to source the design consultants for the project. Seems there was one objection to bord pleanala but it was ruled invalid

robtri

I thought KK council objected?

Aquos76

robtri wrote: »

I thought KK council objected?

Kilkenny CoCo made submissions during the submissions stage, that was like a pre-planning stage is all.

Harry Palmr

Excellent news, can't wait to see the first signs of activity. Just imagine Kilkenny people working and shopping, maybe also living there. Such a great multifaceted facility quite literally on their doorstep.

TommyHilfiger

Correct me if I am wrong was it the chamber of commerce in Kilkenny that put in the submission not the Council.