€300M Investment into Waterford City

Road-Hog

robcass78 wrote: »

Firstly, there isn't 2bn available next year; it's only 100m next year, to be allocated across all applications for the urban fund (i.e. all cities ex Dublin plus the towns).

Secondly, the Council's evaluation has been chosen as Indecon (who aren't doing Cork's application) and is ONLY for the public expenditure aspect of North quays (which is the fraction of spend: 63m of 498m (or we're doing 87% and government 13%).

The council application completely excludes the "business/private investment" shown on page 26 of 498m development cost (including the contribution we make to bridges/roads/The greenway/the new rail station of 15.5m).

That then also excludes the direct impact of the trade/economic value generated on site (which is c407m a year) once built, and then the indirect impact from that trade (the jobs created on site and in the region from that trade, which is at a minimum 3,434 jobs have salaries to spend) and then the tertiary impact.

Third, the application for funding itself doesn't say "exclude private investment" as it's about the benefits to the community/city/county/region.

So whilst in reality, if North Quays & Michael was built tomorrow, it would see 3,434 jobs and the economy 407m, Indecon/government put no value against these jobs and the economic impact to county (407m or +9% growth in GDP p.a.) or region.

Make sense? So, grossly underestimate the benefits, overstate the costs and there you have it.

Precedent for this? Cathlab; flawed report with little understanding of basis. What's that resulted in?

Who understands the report and the understanding of the economics and jobs impact behind North Quays & Michael St do you think, or who has asked to go through it to drive it?

And where in the Indecon report does it mention job creation from the development, if we're supposed to be all about "jobs, jobs, jobs"?

BTW; Waterford didn't do a presentation on the urban regeneration fund; Kilkenny, Laois & Limerick have done so as I expect them to apply.

Kilkenny's masterplan looks good. Limerick a solid business team working together with council collectively, as one independent Board seeing it's vision delivered.

So in conclusion what are you saying.....WCCC are (as most contributors to this site and wider public believe) not at the races and will eff up whole process...? Other LA’s with Better plans will overtake WCCC and Hoover up the funding.

Max Powers

I took a look at the blank application form, a couple things in it...is project shovel ready for 2019....I'd guess north quays is further down that road than most others, past bord pleanala, it's SDZ so no come backs, etc.I don't know if cork, kk are as advanced, maybe they are.
Another question on it is, funding needed 2019, 20, 21, 22 and..amount of matching funding.clearly with al hokair basically bank rolling this, matching funding is a massive plus, also, way way beyond that in fact, I'm guessing funds released over years of project, fairly normal practice I'd guess.
Sections on what benefits are, jobs created, etc...that case is clearly made and clearly understood in everything that has been said and read so far. To underline this, govt has committed to north quays in NDP plans and words being said by Leo etc.
Deadline is 28th September, you'd just wish the govt could do things a bit quicker clearly, to me, it looks like council has done all of it right so far, demolition done, sdz done, CPO approved, geo survey for new bridge done, public consultations, outline designs done.
I'm not involved though so my understanding is limited to what those involved say or hear from likes of local radio/papers.

rekdtangle

This isn't by any chance tue announcement pending patent that was discussed earlier in this thread?


https://amp-irishexaminer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/400-jobs-to-be-created-by-chinese-biomanufacturing-company-in-dundalk-840019.html

robcass78

rekdtangle wrote: »

This isn't by any chance tue announcement pending patent that was discussed earlier in this thread?


https://amp-irishexaminer-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/400-jobs-to-be-created-by-chinese-biomanufacturing-company-in-dundalk-840019.html

No

engiweirdo

Would it be fair to say that even at this stage it's still firmly in pipe dream land. No Michael St development without North Quays funding smacks of lack of confidence in project actually coming to fruition and all backing being pulled. Otherwise why not get the ball rolling now? Coild be built and profiting while NQ is under construction.

Road-Hog

engiweirdo wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that even at this stage it's still firmly in pipe dream land. No Michael St development without North Quays funding smacks of lack of confidence in project actually coming to fruition and all backing being pulled. Otherwise why not get the ball rolling now? Coild be built and profiting while NQ is under construction.

Who knows for sure but I bet if Cork/Dublin/limerick/Galway had a similar site/sites with a developer ‘lined up’ there wouldn’t be near the amount of doubters/nay sayers/knockers contributing to threads like this....for some reason there so something so negative about the general population in the general south east region.....

engiweirdo

Road-Hog wrote: »

Who knows for sure but I bet if Cork/Dublin/limerick/Galway had a similar site/sites with a developer ‘lined up’ there wouldn’t be near the amount of doubters/nay sayers/knockers contributing to threads like this....for some reason there so something so negative about the general population in the general south east region.....

There's no great mystery about it tbh. Waterford people are the equivalent to an abused wife. Been ****ed over enough times already by government/business that to be anything other than cautious/suspicious would be pure idiocy.

fricatus

engiweirdo wrote: »

There's no great mystery about it tbh. Waterford people are the equivalent to an abused wife. Been ****ed over enough times already by government/business that to be anything other than cautious/suspicious would be pure idiocy.

Yeah, I have to say that's the way I feel about it. I have my fingers crossed, Rob and the team appear to know what they're doing, things appear to be progressing in the background, but I've seen enough in my time to keep my enthusiasm in check for the time being.

Two concrete examples: in 1988 - yes, 30 years ago - there was a report that government funding was practically imminent for a runway extension at WAT. And 10 years ago, I remember a friend who works at WIT saying that the ball was almost over the line for university status. We're still waiting!

So yeah, I try not to be negative, but engiweirdo is right. It's hard to be positive looking back over a lifetime of government neglect. Maybe the fact that it's private sector investment, and not beholden to the usual interests, will make the difference this time.

Gardner

Rob, may i ask who you have engaged with in terms of designers (Mech, Elec, Civil, Arch)? Arup, Jacobs or have you gone with an Irish based/owned designer with relevant previous experience?

With the owners being an international organisation will you run with an EPC or EPCM type of Contract?

Upon all this who are you looking for in terms of Main Contractor? Irish based (Sisk, BAM, Hegarty's etc) or will you go with International companies like (Samsung C&T, KBR, Laings)?

curmudgeonly

@Robcass78 Rob the North Quays project, a simple question, is this going to be one build or a phased project?

dzilla

Will it have a Marks and Sepncers

Bards

Just a few hours left of "this week"... Will contracts be signed?

Harry Palmr

dzilla wrote: »

Will it have a Marks and Sepncers

The brands will be "international" rather than the standard UK retail stuff (most of whom are on the floor at the moment) - http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/brands/ I suspect it'll be a place your wife will love rather than your dad.

engiweirdo

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The brands will be "international" rather than the standard UK retail stuff (most of whom are on the floor at the moment) - http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/brands/ I suspect it'll be a place your wife will love rather than your dad.

Will your dad still be around if/when it opens though? Might have to start thinking of what the grandkids would be in to.

Johnboy1951

engiweirdo wrote: »

Will your dad still be around if/when it opens though? Might have to start thinking of what the grandkids would be in to.

You have some particular reason to believe it will be delayed until grandkids might use it (decades)?

Road-Hog

dzilla wrote: »

Will it have a Marks and Sepncers

What is poeople in Waterford’s obsession with marks and Spencer’s......? About as bog standard UK store as you can get...!

fricatus

Road-Hog wrote: »

What is poeople in Waterford’s obsession with marks and Spencer’s......? About as bog standard UK store as you can get...!

Haha, I'm wondering if that was a joke on dzilla's part!

No chance of a M&S really. They're struggling on the high street, and the uncertainty around Brexit is surely putting a halt to any short-term expansion plans in the remaining EU countries.

dzilla

fricatus wrote: »

Haha, I'm wondering if that was a joke on dzilla's part!

No chance of a M&S really. They're struggling on the high street, and the uncertainty around Brexit is surely putting a halt to any short-term expansion plans in the remaining EU countries.

Too easy

hardybuck

dzilla wrote: »

Will it have a Marks and Sepncers

Navan has an M&S store. Just let that sink in a little.

Deiseen

hardybuck wrote: »

dzilla wrote: »

Will it have a Marks and Sepncers

Navan has an M&S store. Just let that sink in a little.

They are in big trouble in the UK. Stores closing left right and centre. No way they'll open more anywhere.

Also, its ****e.

hardybuck

Deiseen wrote: »

They are in big trouble in the UK. Stores closing left right and centre. No way they'll open more anywhere.

Also, its ****e.

In fairness it's alright. I think I'd prefer for Waterford to have it than not have it, but I wouldn't be jumping for joy if it came or pining for it to come.

JohnC.

Darrers are coming back as an anchor tenant.

Road-Hog

JohnC. wrote: »

Darrers are coming back as an anchor tenant.

Yeah. Opening a second hotel opposite their current one....😀

Harry Palmr

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You have some particular reason to believe it will be delayed until grandkids might use it (decades)?

This thread doesn't need any empirical evidence to posit an argument/position. The initial announcement was just 18 months ago, it's a huge two site undertaking and over 300m required to make it a reality. I'd be more concerned if this was happening too quickly.

Johnboy1951

Harry Palmr wrote: »

This thread doesn't need any empirical evidence to posit an argument/position. The initial announcement was just 18 months ago, it's a huge two site undertaking and over 300m required to make it a reality. I'd be more concerned if this was happening too quickly.

Frame it whatever way you like, but an unfounded opinion has no place in any discussion.
All was asked was the reason (or foundation) for the opinion expressed.

It should have been provided along with the expressed opinion, so the question was, and is valid.

engiweirdo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

You have some particular reason to believe it will be delayed until grandkids might use it (decades)?

How long is Michael St "in the pipeline" at this stage? For all the grandiose plans there still hasn't been a block laid in earnest. Promises promises, are nice for dreamers but results are not exactly forthcoming and the hesitance of the company proposing the development to move forward with Michael St is worrisome.

I get that it's an all or nothing development but that they are'nt moving forward with the initial stage with no roadblocks attached, indicates this investment is far from a done deal and we could be left with nothing but what ifs again shortly. This was all green lights apparently and now the big pause. Are they re-thinking and considering cutting losses? Their actions, at least in terms of real physical results and not propaganda, are'nt displaying much confidence in the city at present.

Johnboy1951

engiweirdo wrote: »

How long is Michael St "in the pipeline" at this stage? For all the grandiose plans there still hasn't been a block laid in earnest. Promises promises, are nice for dreamers but results are not exactly forthcoming and the hesitance of the company proposing the development to move forward with Michael St is worrisome.

I get that it's an all or nothing development but that they are'nt moving forward with the initial stage with no roadblocks attached, indicates this investment is far from a done deal and we could be left with nothing but what ifs again shortly. This was all green lights apparently and now the big pause. Are they re-thinking and considering cutting losses? Their actions, at least in terms of real physical results and not propaganda, are'nt displaying much confidence in the city at present.

Thank you.

alta stare

Is there any plans for traffic management during and after the North Keys development? The traffic that side of the bridge is crazy in the mornings and this development will add to it. Surely its time we have a new vehicle bridge, which isnt outside the city.

914

engiweirdo wrote: »

How long is Michael St "in the pipeline" at this stage? For all the grandiose plans there still hasn't been a block laid in earnest. Promises promises, are nice for dreamers but results are not exactly forthcoming and the hesitance of the company proposing the development to move forward with Michael St is worrisome.

I get that it's an all or nothing development but that they are'nt moving forward with the initial stage with no roadblocks attached, indicates this investment is far from a done deal and we could be left with nothing but what ifs again shortly. This was all green lights apparently and now the big pause. Are they re-thinking and considering cutting losses? Their actions, at least in terms of real physical results and not propaganda, are'nt displaying much confidence in the city at present.

A tender was sought in the past few weeks for demolishing works on Michael St area where the development will be taking place.

Road-Hog

914 wrote: »

A tender was sought in the past few weeks for demolishing works on Michael St area where the development will be taking place.

Can you give some details.....link to ad maybe...?

Was it the existing car park off new st I wonder...?