€300M Investment into Waterford City

Road-Hog

Gardner wrote: »

so from reading all of the above the following is noted:

• The first tranche of funding has been applied for.

• Outline of the potential development that is proposed.

• An envisaged cost of €140m that comes with the Civil/Infrastructural
Works is a very dangerous observation to state. What contingency
have you got on this figure?( approx. %) If the budget does blow out, will
the funding come from an additional tranche from the State or
from Fawaz Alhokair? Will other separable portions of the Project(s) be
excluded to make up budget defecates?

• You stated “We're at design stage and whilst the design team is 80%
Irish, I selected them on competence of delivering large scale,
quayside, mixed use projects. Those selected are best in Ireland/UK”.
I take it then its either Jacobs, PM Group, Arup?? If so that’s
another positive step.

• In terms of tendering strategy you state your 2 months off. That's all well
and good but with a complex development such as this I think
you’re better off to throw that period out another few months until the
design stage is somewhere around the 60% to 80% mark. (just a
personal opinion based upon similar projects I worked on internationally)

• This is very positive to read “Given the scale, it's likely to be a hybrid
of local and international. I'm not yet convinced on national
innovation capability (modular/3d/precast) in the build area, the scale to
deliver such innovations nationally, plus the lack of skills due to
a lack of planning / policy interconnectivity means the requirement to
look external for solutions is taking up a bit of my time.” And agree
100% with you when it comes to local and national Contractor’s. With
Brexit around the corner this is a great opportunity for the likes of
a UK based Contractor’s to now setup in Ireland e.g. Samsung,
KBR, Laings, Cimic etc.

Positive to read, but a hell of a lot of work done and now to be completed. Would I be correct in saying a realistic date of late 2022 early 2023 would be a substantial completion date?

Just to go back to a few of your earlier posts. Would EPCM etc be a similar type of contractual set up to DBO etc....!

Also re above and your observation on the danger of the figure of €140m for infrastructure. Why do you regard it as A very dangerous observation to make........? Don’t think any of us know the exact scope of the works that the €140m is to cover so therefore how can you know for sure that there isn’t a contingency built into it....? Obviously there is a risk of overruns and their funding but there cones a time when a final budget estimate has to be made and submitted particularly in a situation like this. You would hope a generous contingcy percentage has been included

dzilla

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

Harry Palmr

dzilla wrote: »

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

They ain't filling it with pound shops. They are looking to go in the exact opposite direction - destination shopping.

Speckydodge

dzilla wrote: »

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

Yes we badly badly need it.

Deiseen

dzilla wrote: »

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

Lets hear your wonderful plan for the future of Waterford city?

dzilla

Deiseen wrote: »

Lets hear your wonderful plan for the future of Waterford city?

Lets build another White Elephant on the North Quay!

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

Lets build another White Elephant on the North Quay!

Same post every time from you dzilla...change the record.
BTW, it's not just a shopping centre...

fricatus

dzilla wrote: »

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

Yes, Waterford is not really a shopping destination, which impacts on our economy. I work in Kilkenny, and my impression is that people would go to Newbridge more often than to Waterford for shopping trips. No offence to the fine town of Newbridge, but we should be in a higher league. This retail leakage translates into lost jobs. I'm sure Rob has the figures!

dzilla

Max Powers wrote: »

Same post every time from you dzilla...change the record.
BTW, it's not just a shopping centre...

Its the same post, however, Its the reality, we are a depressed town that cannot attract what it wants. They can sing the same tune that we don't have units big enough blaa blaa blaa but I don't see the units next to Alfies now moving. We are not a shopping destination because nobody here has a pot to p1ss in. So all we get is coffee shops, pound shops, vape shops and gadget shops. This is the reality and it won't change regardless of all the fancy artist impression's of the NQ and fantasy Middle Eastern money.

dzilla

fricatus wrote: »

Yes, Waterford is not really a shopping destination, which impacts on our economy. I work in Kilkenny, and my impression is that people would go to Newbridge more often than to Waterford for shopping trips. No offence to the fine town of Newbridge, but we should be in a higher league. This retail leakage translates into lost jobs. I'm sure Rob has the figures!

Newbridge has outlet shopping, different to what the NQ fantasy will ever be.

Deiseen

dzilla wrote: »

fricatus wrote: »

Yes, Waterford is not really a shopping destination, which impacts on our economy. I work in Kilkenny, and my impression is that people would go to Newbridge more often than to Waterford for shopping trips. No offence to the fine town of Newbridge, but we should be in a higher league. This retail leakage translates into lost jobs. I'm sure Rob has the figures!

Newbridge has outlet shopping, different to what the NQ fantasy will ever be.

You said no one has a pot to piss in... You dont think €450 million into the region will help with that no? Nevermind talking about people coming here for shopping, increased tourism, office space, housing etc etc etc etc etc.

Harry Palmr

dzilla wrote: »

Newbridge has outlet shopping, different to what the NQ fantasy will ever be.

:rolleyes: We don't need Dublin's neglect to damage us you are exactly the type of person who drags Waterford down. Bar room level guff.

dzilla

Deiseen wrote: »

You said no one has a pot to piss in... You dont think €450 million into the region will help with that no? Nevermind talking about people coming here for shopping, increased tourism, office space, housing etc etc etc etc etc.

Pardon me for being a pessimist but I have seen too many false dawns for Waterford already to believe this is the real McCoy.

I do believe something needs to be done for the North Quays, and not be left as an eye sore, however I do not believe such a big retail focus is needed, Michael Street's development should be succinct with a scaled down retail on the NQ. Added to 2 premium and 1 budget hotel to deal with a shortage of hotel rooms in the town especially since the greenway has increased numbers along with a big Marina like Swansea City did. All coupled with a Museum or so like Guggenheim in Bilbao or the Port Distilleries in Porto I believe this would be a better focus. Make the niche not about shopping, but about history / arts such as the two Cities I have mentioned previously.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

:rolleyes: We don't need Dublin's neglect to damage us you are exactly the type of person who drags Waterford down. Bar room level guff.

Great post, I'd read it again

azimuth17

When i saw "build a museum like the Guggenheim" i knew immediately that Dzilla has probably never even seen any of the three museums in the Viking Triangle, let alone been in any of them. The Bilbao Guggenheim cost well over €100 million.

dzilla

azimuth17 wrote: »

When i saw "build a museum like the Guggenheim" i knew immediately that Dzilla has probably never even seen any of the three museums in the Viking Triangle, let alone been in any of them. The Bilbao Guggenheim cost well over €100 million.

Wahey the entertainment has arrived!

Well ye are talking investment to attract future tourism so a figure like 100€million is not entirely surprising.

I am very familiar with the museums in the viking triangle. My only problem with the viking Triangle is the lack of vision to put some retail down there, a fantastic facility but for local people from the region once you have been there a few times there isn't much else drawing you down there bar the eateries and cafes. So I find it can be a bit dead at times.

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

Wahey the entertainment has arrived!

Well ye are talking investment to attract future tourism so a figure like 100€million is not entirely surprising.

I am very familiar with the museums in the viking triangle. My only problem with the viking Triangle is the lack of vision to put some retail down there, a fantastic facility but for local people from the region once you have been there a few times there isn't much else drawing you down there bar the eateries and cafes. So I find it can be a bit dead at times.

I get that the economy is not where we want it but this NQ development of infrastructure, shops, homes, tourist attraction, offices and hotels will help that.

Talk of a Guggenheim or where that money comes from for that is fantasy white elephant talk.

Time and time again we see the nay Sayers bad mouthing stuff on here, they always show up to be just that, bar stool whiners, and when asked for something constructive come up with some fantasy nonsense.

Harry Palmr

The Bilbao Guggenheim type museum in a city of less than 50k?! Now that's a fantasy.

dzilla

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The Bilbao Guggenheim type museum in a city of less than 50k?! Now that's a fantasy.

So how could we sustain the levels of retail proposed in that case?

dzilla

Max Powers wrote: »

I get that the economy is not where we want it but this NQ development of infrastructure, shops, homes, tourist attraction, offices and hotels will help that.

Talk of a Guggenheim or where that money comes from for that is fantasy white elephant talk.

Time and time again we see the nay Sayers bad mouthing stuff on here, they always show up to be just that, bar stool whiners, and when asked for something constructive come up with some fantasy nonsense.

A fantasy aye, same as what's proposed

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

A fantasy aye, same as what's proposed

Thats funny, from the fella that thinks portos wine visitor attractions are a good idea for NQ... we really arent promoting our port wine production like we should be here in Waterford. We should definitely look to do that rather than trying to increase tourism and employment by putting in offices, pedestrian bridge, shops, moving train station, hotels, etc.

dzilla

Max Powers wrote: »

Thats funny, from the fella that thinks portos wine visitor attractions are a good idea for NQ... we really arent promoting our port wine production like we should be here in Waterford. We should definitely look to do that rather than trying to increase tourism and employment by putting in offices, pedestrian bridge, shops, moving train station, hotels, etc.

Well done lad take me literally as if I want port wine to be produced on the north quays. Do a bit more Wikipedia'ing on it anyway you'll see you can,t make the stuff outside region. I simply referred to three cities who have a resource of a river going through with a southern and northern key and how they use them for heritage / arts and the likes and where swansea have used it as a buffer for their hotels.

If you think that we will attract shopping tourism from abroad ye are wrong full stop especially with luggage becoming more and more a premium and cheaper shopping destinations else where.

Ye all keep agreeing with yourselfs anyway 😂 ye won't see any cranes in Waterford anytime soon.

Big pound shop openning up in the old besco site I believe 😂😂 sign of the times

Road-Hog

dzilla wrote: »

Well done lad take me literally as if I want port wine to be produced on the north quays. Do a bit more Wikipedia'ing on it anyway you'll see you can,t make the stuff outside region. I simply referred to three cities who have a resource of a river going through with a southern and northern key and how they use them for heritage / arts and the likes and where swansea have used it as a buffer for their hotels.

If you think that we will attract shopping tourism from abroad ye are wrong full stop especially with luggage becoming more and more a premium and cheaper shopping destinations else where.

Ye all keep agreeing with yourselfs anyway 😂 ye won't see any cranes in Waterford anytime soon.

Big pound shop openning up in the old besco site I believe 😂😂 sign of the times

A north quays full of pounds shops and other low cost retailers could put w’ford On map for sure.....just look at footfall that penny’scyrrently generates. Another 20 odd premark / penny type stores could do the trick. Forget aspirations of a Kildare village style mall.....!

mooseknunkle

For anyone who is interested


http://waterfordcouncil.ie/media/press-releases/2018/october/PR-WCCCAppliesUrbanRegenerationFund2018.pdf

Press Release
2nd October, 2018
Urban Regeneration and Development Fund 2018
Waterford City and County Council are delighted to announce that it has made application to the
Urban Regeneration and Development Fund 2018 last Friday for projects to significantly
enhance City Centre Access and to facilitate development on the north side of Waterford
including the North Quays. The proposals have been developed with support from Kilkenny
County Council, Waterford Port Company, Irish Rail, the National Transport Authority and
private sector interests, including the Alhokair Group.
The developments include:
 The provision of an integrated transport hub
 The provision of a sustainable transport corridor, including a new bridge at the Clock
Tower
 Improvements to City Centre access routes on the north side of the River Suir
 Provision of a new link between Belmont and Abbey Roads and other serviced land
initiatives in the Belview area
The total cost estimate for the infrastructure is €139m (including inflation and VAT) where
75% of the cost is eligible for grant aid. The estimated cost for the project has increased from
that submitted in 2018 due to:
a) Additional works in the Kilkenny administrative area being included
b) Additional works required by Irish Rail
c) The provision of additional bus priority measures at the behest of the National
Transport Authority
d) Provision for construction inflation and contingencies following detailed design and risk
analysis.
The development will see the exciting transformation of an existing brown field riverside site on
the North Quays and open up land for development in the Ferrybank/Belview area. Private
sector investment of over €300 Million is envisaged relatively immediately, with the creation of
over 90,000 square metres of mixed use development, comprising a new retail centre, hotels,
visitors’ centre, 200 residences, fourth generation offices, underground car parking, and
amenity facilities. Such a development will see the creation of over 2,300 direct jobs, with many
more being created in the wider economy.
A planning scheme for the North Quays Strategic Development Zone was made and adopted in
June of 2018. The planning scheme allows for a holistic plan-led approach to the development
on the North Quays and a fast-track planning procedure. The developers have already appointed
a full complement of consultants to plan, design and oversee the project and a planning
application for the SDZ site is envisaged by the end of the year or in the early weeks of 2019.
Waterford City and County Council in collaboration with Kilkenny County Council and Irish Rail
will develop the infrastructure, the subject of these proposals. Roughan O’Donovan Civil,
Environmental and Structural engineers have been appointed by Waterford City and County
Council as lead consultants throughout the project programme and they will see the project
from current preliminary design stage to the final handover of completed works in 2022.
In July, drawings and visuals for the Sustainable Transport Bridge were presented at a well
attended public consultation event and an application for the Sustainable Transport Bridge will
be submitted to An Bord Pleanála next month. The planning application for all road and bridge
infrastructure along Dock and Abbey Roads will be submitted before the end of the year. It is
envisaged that the infrastructure works will commence on site in October 2019, with private
sector works commencing in mid 2019.
The combined public and private investment of almost €500 million will be a catalyst for the
transformation of Waterford City from a social, economic, tourism and infrastructure
development perspective and will lead to the delivery of the largest single regeneration project
in the country. This Council is convinced that the case being made in the application for funding
is compelling and completely compatible with the objectives of the National Planning framework.

dzilla

Road-Hog wrote: »

A north quays full of pounds shops and other low cost retailers could put w’ford On map for sure.....just look at footfall that penny’scyrrently generates. Another 20 odd premark / penny type stores could do the trick. Forget aspirations of a Kildare village style mall.....!

We'd be up there with Merthyr Tydfil

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

Well done lad take me literally as if I want port wine to be produced on the north quays. Do a bit more Wikipedia'ing on it anyway you'll see you can,t make the stuff outside region. I simply referred to three cities who have a resource of a river going through with a southern and northern key and how they use them for heritage / arts and the likes and where swansea have used it as a buffer for their hotels.

If you think that we will attract shopping tourism from abroad ye are wrong full stop especially with luggage becoming more and more a premium and cheaper shopping destinations else where.

Ye all keep agreeing with yourselfs anyway 😂 ye won't see any cranes in Waterford anytime soon.

Big pound shop openning up in the old besco site I believe 😂😂 sign of the times

That's where your argument falls down dzilla, you start off with the whole thing is a white elephant, that's just stupid when you look at the big picture of bridge, offices etc. Then you try rescue it by trying to copy and paste unworkable sights examples you have seen in other cities. Finally then you just resort to bad mouthing Waterford in general like that helps your argument. If you start off with a sensible comment like, I'd like to see more/less offices, more/less tourist sites and why so, or something along that lines....that's the way to make a point or give your opinion in a sensible mature way. Try it.

hardybuck

dzilla wrote: »

Do we really need a shopping center that big? I don't know if theres enough cafes and pound shops/dealz around to fill it.

It's a tough nut to crack. Some international retailers won't consider locating if they can't get a building to the spec they require, or without the floorspace. In Dublin they're looking to knock down a big block on Dawson Street in the near future for that very purpose.

However, I would be concerned about the potential impact of having those types of shops across the river. It could be a massive drain from the city centre and kill the main street if you like. Larger towns like Arklow and Newbridge suffered from having a big shopping centre on the edge of town, and even in Dublin and Cork city centre retailers often complain about the impact of Dundrum and Mahon Point.

My hope would be for the types of retail that would support a mixed development of residential and offices.

Harry Palmr

Hence the Michael Street development as a partial counter-balance and the pedestrian bridge.

The North Quays are as close to the city centre as you can get for a large development - just a fact of the matter unless the park is built over!

hardybuck

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Hence the Michael Street development as a partial counter-balance and the pedestrian bridge.

The North Quays are as close to the city centre as you can get for a large development - just a fact of the matter unless the park is built over!

You could take a wrecking ball to an awful lot of the existing city centre.

Harry Palmr

You could but you wouldn't. The level of commercial and social upheaval would be unacceptable - we're not in China.

Wanderer78

we need to have policies in place, to help capture the wealth created from such a project, or this has the potential to become another wealth extractive process, like many of our other fdi projects, i fear these measures are not in place.