€300M Investment into Waterford City

Wanderer78

Deiseen wrote: »

Doing what? The North Quays?

its important to realise, ireland is effectively a tax haven, particularly for large fdi investments, even though we dont meet the international definition of this, we are, but we re not truly accepting this, because our favorable tax regime for such investments has worked well for us, but this has the potential to come to an end soon, as this issue becomes more significant over time, we should be preparing for this as best we can. rob is effectively a lobbyist for a large private investor, who is trying to gain access to markets, and to utilize our favorable tax regime, to maximize its and its partners returns. this is effectively a large scale wealth extraction process, which of course does bring many positives to our society, but it also can be highly destructive. there are known methods and systems that can reduce this wealth extraction, my own favorite being the use of sovereign wealth funds, but im sure theres plenty of others. we of course should be behind this development, but we should also be making sure our end of things are in place, so we also get a fair share of the wealth created from such processes.

dzilla

alta stare wrote: »

Im sorry but that statement is a crock of crap.

How the hell can you make such a statement when you dont know what anybody may have or havent done with their lives.

People are allowed an opinion whether you like it or not and if you happen not to then that does not make them negative so cop on with that sh!te your spouting. I couldn't be arsed going back and forth with someone like you but when you make comments like you just have then i cant help it. Utter tripe from you.... Yet again.

Its a boards.ie Waterford City Echo chamber thing, if you don't go along with what is spoken about with relation to the city improvements, north quays, hurlers , Waterford FC you are simply castigated and branded negativity and a Begrudger

dzilla

Deiseen wrote: »

Its not just the North Quays that dzilla dismisses entirely. So hes either a troll or an extremely negative person..

Go on then? What else did I dismiss? The airport in another thread was it??

dzilla

Road-Hog wrote: »

I. Don’t see how one could come to any other view on mr/Mrs dzilla other than he/she is negative stuff about broader achievements in life is off the mark but based on this persons posts to this thread ‘glass half empty’ pessimistic negative etc etc is all that is protracted

Its Mr Dzilla to you.

alta stare

Max Powers wrote: »

Werent you calling someone on here a spoofer recently....form for it.
Anyway, posting opinions when fair, backed up by something or just reasonably intelligent are fine, idiotic /trolling posts are bound to be challenged.

Yes i did. Anyone who shouts all sorts about in public about the very people he needs to have on his side is a spoofer. I bet he licks their asses in private.

Edit: just to add to my post. I challenged you because maybe it is you who trolled with your rediculous comments.

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

Its a boards.ie Waterford City Echo chamber thing, if you don't go along with what is spoken about with relation to the city improvements, north quays, hurlers , Waterford FC you are simply castigated and branded negativity and a Begrudger

If it's not backed up by anything relevant or intelligent then yeah it does smack of begrudgery or negativity.there's an echo chamber of that going on.

alta stare

Max Powers wrote: »

If it's not backed up by anything relevant or intelligent then yeah it does smack of begrudgery or negativity.there's an echo chamber of that going on.

Or when a posters differing opinion is counteracted by being labelled negative, that's desperation.

dzilla

Max Powers wrote: »

If it's not backed up by anything relevant or intelligent then yeah it does smack of begrudgery or negativity.there's an echo chamber of that going on.

Sorry chief this is boards.ie not a prime time debate space. If I fell that there is too much retail penned in for that development and it should be scaled back for museum / heritage I am going to say it, I don't need citations for that.

Something other than retail is needed to get the people over there, I acknowledge offices for service industry will create a buzz over there and keep people there Monday to Friday but I don't believe retail will do that on the weekdays.

I believe Rob's aspirations are admirable, but I cannot see it happening, I have seen too much fail in Waterford over the years, and this is not going to be any different. I hope I am wrong.

Max Powers

dzilla wrote: »

Sorry chief this is boards.ie not a prime time debate space. If I fell that there is too much retail penned in for that development and it should be scaled back for museum / heritage I am going to say it, I don't need citations for that.

Something other than retail is needed to get the people over there, I acknowledge offices for service industry will create a buzz over there and keep people there Monday to Friday but I don't believe retail will do that on the weekdays.

I believe Rob's aspirations are admirable, but I cannot see it happening, I have seen too much fail in Waterford over the years, and this is not going to be any different. I hope I am wrong.

All perfectly fine dzilla, you made a bit of a case there, your opinion, not just saying the whole thing is a white elephant

Deiseen

dzilla wrote: »

Max Powers wrote: »

If it's not backed up by anything relevant or intelligent then yeah it does smack of begrudgery or negativity.there's an echo chamber of that going on.

Sorry chief this is boards.ie not a prime time debate space. If I fell that there is too much retail penned in for that development and it should be scaled back for museum / heritage I am going to say it, I don't need citations for that.

Something other than retail is needed to get the people over there, I acknowledge offices for service industry will create a buzz over there and keep people there Monday to Friday but I don't believe retail will do that on the weekdays.

I believe Rob's aspirations are admirable, but I cannot see it happening, I have seen too much fail in Waterford over the years, and this is not going to be any different. I hope I am wrong.

Its not just retail. There is a heritage/tourism section to it like you ask, and a big one, theres talks of moving Waterford crystal over there or them having some presence there at least. Think he wants to get all the best things of the region into the space.

Theres also a hotel, office space, apartments, a rail station and obviously retail. Not to mention a bridge which provides a badly needed connection between Waterford South and North.

Not sure how you can say it needs more than retail as i dont know what else you can add to it really!

Harry Palmr

Waterford is notably under-retailed as compared to the obvious er comparators. We also have a low-rent retail profile, NQP/Michael St is designed to address that.

Sure a fancy dan museum of Blaas and Crackers would be lovely but the Saudi's are in business not heritage.

azimuth17

The Bishops Palace and new medieval museum in Waterford cost over €10 million I think in a city of 50,000 people. The Guggenheim in Bilbao cost €100 million in a city of 350,000 people. The relativities are not bad. The Greyfriars gallery is being converted to another museum as the art gallery is moving (per local papers) to the old TSB bank in O'Connell Street (former TSB HQ opposite Garter Lane). The idea of a museum quarter as in Berlin is sensible, especially in the oldest part of the city. The retail consensus seems to be that Waterford loses up to €70 million per annum in retail spend for its size and catchment. City has twice or more shopping square footage than anywhere in south east but is deficient in comparison retail, but not in convenience retail, Council CEO is on record as saying the NQ plus Michael Street is designed to recover that leakage which is mostly going to Dublin. There is a similar situation with hotel accommodation which needs to be extended and upgraded. Extension to Tower Hotel, the reopening of Shalloe's Hotel and the Sands in Tramore plus the Manor Greenway hotel near Holy Cross and the Suite rental place on John's Hill give some indication of whats needed.

dzilla

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Sure a fancy dan museum of Blaas and Crackers would be lovely but the Saudi's are in business not heritage.

I think you are being flippant off what the city has to offer.

robcass78

Road-Hog wrote: »

Thought you might offer a counter argument to the figures/fantasy figures he quotes.....I Think he does make some valid points but don’t quite follow the €100k spent per person or the model he uses to convert the capital spend into 10,000 Jobs etc etc...?

It’s much too easy to just dismiss it all as fantasy.....in the same way that some with a more glass half full view will lap it up......outside a few IDA backed FDI’s west pharma and one or two others this is potentially up there with the largest investment the region may get in years.....

By all means dismiss It all with just one word such as ‘fantasy’......but I think this looks to have a lot more potential than previous ‘false dawns/promises’......in the end of the day your view will have no influence over whether the project fails or progresses.

It's 100k in sales value per employee (productivity); i.e. 1m sales = 10 jobs/sales folk.

So 666m in sales leakage outside region is 6,600 jobs created outside the region (Dublin/Kildare etc) and 6,600 not created here.

Sorry it came across as spend per person. Consumer spend per person is 20k. Retail 9-10k. For Waterford & South East.

robcass78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we need to have policies in place, to help capture the wealth created from such a project, or this has the potential to become another wealth extractive process, like many of our other fdi projects, i fear these measures are not in place.

Wanderer, please tell me how 2,300 jobs on North Quays & 180 in Michael St, that don't exist today, is "wealth extractive?"

Tell me how the businesses on North Quays, who create value through their sales & profit, are extractive? Or the 350m on construction is extractive, as that's money spent with suppliers? Or 144m a year in exchequer income from jobs & profit is extractive? Which in turn provides state with money to spend on other things (cathlab/TUSE/social housing/culture/arts/benefits)?

I'm not a "lobbyist"; I'm a Director who goes to jail if we break the law. If you create a better society & communities as urban regeneration does when delivered well, many prosper. It's not "win-lose."

Road-Hog

robcass78 wrote: »

Wanderer, please tell me how 2,300 jobs on North Quays & 180 in Michael St, that don't exist today, is "wealth extractive?"

Tell me how the businesses on North Quays, who create value through their sales & profit, are extractive? Or the 350m on construction is extractive, as that's money spent with suppliers? Or 144m a year in exchequer income from jobs & profit is extractive? Which in turn provides state with money to spend on other things (cathlab/TUSE/social housing/culture/arts/benefits)?

I'm not a "lobbyist"; I'm a Director who goes to jail if we break the law. If you create a better society & communities as urban regeneration does when delivered well, many prosper. It's not "win-lose."

my economics knowledge is limited but is wealth extraction more to do with investors buying up distressed assets and speculating / scalping (pat Hickey comes to mind) and hoarding this asset be it property or a commodity until its value rises or charging above market rents/leases.
In case of property wealth extraction would mean buying up distressed houses / commercial properties and charging above market rent a la the ‘vulture funds’ who dissended on this country after the crash....? If I’m some way correct with the above then I can’t see how building something that was never there ie north quays and creating jobs etc is anything but the polar opposite to ‘wealth extraction’......maybe the OP (wanderer78) should make a further contribution to redefine/clarify his/her post/point on this.....?

Wanderer78

Road-Hog wrote:

my economics knowledge is limited but is wealth extraction more to do with investors buying up distressed assets and speculating / scalping (pat Hickey comes to mind) hoarding this asset be it property or a commodity until its value rises. In case of property wealth extraction would mean buying up distressed houses / commercial and charging above market rent a la the ‘vulture funds’ who dissended on this country after the crash....? If I’m some way correct with the above then I can’t see how building something that was never there and creating jobs etc is anything but the polar opposite to ‘wealth extraction’......maybe the OP (wanderer78) should make a further contribution to redefine/clarify his/her post.....?

Apologies folks very busy today, may in fact take a day or two to get back to this, but in short, the whole apple debacle has been telling, it's becoming more clear what role Ireland has been playing in global tax evasion and avoidance, particularly of large corporations and fdi projects. I worked for one for a few years in the city which is still operational, in its first 30 years existence in the city, on paper, it never turned a profit! Strangely enough, you ll find this is one of the main metrics used to calculate corporate tax payments, I.e. no profits equals no taxes! David mcwilliams was mentioned earlier, I'd recommend his work in general, particularly his latest work, I.e. we have an over reliance on taxation of labour to provide us with our social needs, and an under reliance on the taxation of wealth. yes I know, corporate tax income has increased significantly since the closure of the 'double Irish', but let's not get too excited over this, new loop holes are more than likely in the making as we speak, normal service will more than resume shortly. Apologies rob, I ll respond when I can.

Road-Hog

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Apologies folks very busy today, may in fact take a day or two to get back to this, but in short, the whole apple debacle has been telling, it's becoming more clear what role Ireland has been playing in global tax evasion and avoidance, particularly of large corporations and fdi projects. I worked for one for a few years in the city which is still operational, in its first 30 years existence in the city, on paper, it never turned a profit! Strangely enough, you ll find this is one of the main metrics used to calculate corporate tax payments, I.e. no profits equals no taxes! David mcwilliams was mentioned earlier, I'd recommend his work in general, particularly his latest work, I.e. we have an over reliance on taxation of labour to provide us with our social needs, and an under reliance on the taxation of wealth. yes I know, corporate tax income has increased significantly since the closure of the 'double Irish', but let's not get too excited over this, new loop holes are more than likely in the making as we speak, normal service will more than resume shortly. Apologies rob, I ll respond when I can.

You will need to use more non financial jargon/acronyms for us non economists what the eff is ‘double irish’ etc

Wanderer78

Road-Hog wrote: »

You will need to use more non financial jargon/acronyms for us non economists what the eff is ‘double irish’ etc

apologies, under pressure here, google it, im sure theres plenty of stuff out there on it, tis very interesting stuff

Deiseen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Road-Hog wrote:

my economics knowledge is limited but is wealth extraction more to do with investors buying up distressed assets and speculating / scalping (pat Hickey comes to mind) hoarding this asset be it property or a commodity until its value rises. In case of property wealth extraction would mean buying up distressed houses / commercial and charging above market rent a la the ‘vulture funds’ who dissended on this country after the crash....? If I’m some way correct with the above then I can’t see how building something that was never there and creating jobs etc is anything but the polar opposite to ‘wealth extraction’......maybe the OP (wanderer78) should make a further contribution to redefine/clarify his/her post.....?

Apologies folks very busy today, may in fact take a day or two to get back to this, but in short, the whole apple debacle has been telling, it's becoming more clear what role Ireland has been playing in global tax evasion and avoidance, particularly of large corporations and fdi projects. I worked for one for a few years in the city which is still operational, in its first 30 years existence in the city, on paper, it never turned a profit! Strangely enough, you ll find this is one of the main metrics used to calculate corporate tax payments, I.e. no profits equals no taxes! David mcwilliams was mentioned earlier, I'd recommend his work in general, particularly his latest work, I.e. we have an over reliance on taxation of labour to provide us with our social needs, and an under reliance on the taxation of wealth. yes I know, corporate tax income has increased significantly since the closure of the 'double Irish', but let's not get too excited over this, new loop holes are more than likely in the making as we speak, normal service will more than resume shortly. Apologies rob, I ll respond when I can.

And you know all this about Al Hokair how? Have you got proof or are you just assuming?

Max Powers

Road-Hog wrote: »

my economics knowledge is limited but is wealth extraction more to do with investors buying up distressed assets and speculating / scalping (pat Hickey comes to mind) and hoarding this asset be it property or a commodity until its value rises or charging above market rents/leases.
In case of property wealth extraction would mean buying up distressed houses / commercial properties and charging above market rent a la the ‘vulture funds’ who dissended on this country after the crash....? If I’m some way correct with the above then I can’t see how building something that was never there ie north quays and creating jobs etc is anything but the polar opposite to ‘wealth extraction’......maybe the OP (wanderer78) should make a further contribution to redefine/clarify his/her post/point on this.....?

I suspect about as limited as wanderers knowledge road hog, I wouldn't be doing yourself down here, in fairness wanderer means well, there is nothing wrong with his posts usually but I don't think he knows either really, he can't explain it usually, loads of references to economists, overly jargon language, generic/theoretical copy and paste stuff that just doesn't apply or is so obvious it's like an academic showing up to a football match saying in academic terms...it's vital that the blue team scores more goals than the red team if they are to succeed. In other words, too simplistic theories that don't really take into account specifics of situation, the world, capitalism, politics, peoples wants, etc. It might be more suitable for the economic theory forum.

Wanderer78

Max Powers wrote: »

I suspect about as limited as wanderers knowledge road hog, I wouldn't be doing yourself down here, in fairness wanderer means well, there is nothing wrong with his posts usually but I don't think he knows either really, he can't explain it usually, loads of references to economists, overly jargon language, generic/theoretical copy and paste stuff that just doesn't apply or is so obvious it's like an academic showing up to a football match saying in academic terms...it's vital that the blue team scores more goals than the red team if they are to succeed. In other words, too simplistic theories that don't really take into account specifics of situation, the world, capitalism, politics, peoples wants, etc. It might be more suitable for the economic theory forum.

you should look into the world of neoclassical theory for a disturbing view of the world, ive explained to some degree why i struggle to convert my thoughts into text

Max Powers

Wanderer78 wrote: »

you should look into the world of neoclassical theory for a disturbing view of the world, ive explained to some degree why i struggle to convert my thoughts into text

I don't really buy it TBH, I can't explain it just trust me non explanation, I know the world economy isn't perfect, people are greedy, politicians, etc what it's got to do with Waterford or north quays is just irrelevant when you are talking economic macro theories.i think your understanding is more limited than you like to project.

Johnboy1951

I suspect, although I do not know that - to quote RobCass

Wanderer, please tell me how 2,300 jobs on North Quays & 180 in Michael St, that don't exist today, is "wealth extractive?"

the answer to that would be of course it is not when put in those terms.

That is a huge boost to everything in the region ..... not least of which, in the longer term, would be social attitude and self esteem.

So the main ongoing benefit locally/regionally will be the recompense for energy spent (wages).


What would be of interest is, if the investors have any intention of, or made any commitments to, or even have a history of, reinvesting a percentage of profits in the locality/region/country.

Harry Palmr

Dialectic discussion is hardly what this thread needs.

bullpost

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Dialectic discussion is hardly what this thread needs.

Or even didactic

Harry Palmr

Some issue forth statements from upon high and some pick same apart





















but yes you're right I chose the wrong word for some reason.

Bards

Will the current concern over Saudi Arabia involvement of the dissappearence of the Journalist in it's Turkish embassy give the Irish Government a way out of providing the funding necessary for the North Quays... Are we yet again destined to failure due to bad timing... Discuss

Wanderer78

Bards wrote:

Will the current concern over Saudi Arabia involvement of the dissappearence of the Journalist in it's Turkish embassy give the Irish Government a way out of providing the funding necessary for the North Quays... Are we yet again destined to failure due to bad timing... Discuss

Was only thinking this myself yesterday, I'd say stakeholders might give this a wide birth now unfortunately, what a strange situation that murder is

dzilla

Bards wrote: »

Will the current concern over Saudi Arabia involvement of the dissappearence of the Journalist in it's Turkish embassy give the Irish Government a way out of providing the funding necessary for the North Quays... Are we yet again destined to failure due to bad timing... Discuss

I doubt it , if their treatment of Women as second class citizens isnt a problem for the Irish government I doubt this will be.