Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

€300M Investment into Waterford City

Options
15455575960135

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    engiweirdo wrote: »
    If you just get over the small hurdle of paying some greedy baxtard €2k+ a month for the privilige of living in such a fantastic city eh?

    I purchased during the crash! Sold a couple a few years later and made a tidy profit!
    The Waterford Mafia has the city in the state that it's in. Nothing will ever happen in
    Waterford during the remainder of my lifetime at least! A constant downward spiral!
    Same oulde heads and surnames always popping up in some shape or form.

    People down there live in a fantasy world but that's all gone now!
    Waterford Crystal, Iron Foundry, The Chipboard to name but a few that have
    all ceased to exist and plenty more to add to that. We excel in mediocrity and
    that's nothing to be proud of! Look at Dublin, Cork or Galway! All thriving
    and booming with great investment in their centres.

    But ye'll elect the same shower of rats to represent ye for another five years
    and get absolutely nothing for ye're perceived loyalty! And then ye'll ask why?
    I'm fairly certain most of those "ye's" dont apply to me in any case.

    The Dublin horse has bolted now for another generation thanks again to baby boomers for pulling up the bridge behind them, burning it and pissing over the gap. Pretty much what ye'll be remembered for.

    The Waterford "Mafia" is a bit fantastical but there is a strange tendency to direct public funds towards areas in which tradition "hospitality moguls" have owned most of the businesses. At least Al Hokair represents new blood, not another Tweedy or Kavanagh or similar.

    There's a point wrapped up in your ramblings alright, but it's buried behind disdain for ANYONE still in the place and is equally as terrible as the "everything is woderful, don't you dare say otherwise" POV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 531 ✭✭✭Stopitwillya


    Sorry to hear that quite fella, but I don't see how Waterford city lost you your marriage, children and friends.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    Sorry to hear that quite fella, but I don't see how Waterford city lost you your marriage, children and friends.

    Same, sad to hear that but can't see how Waterford is to blame for all of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭Road-Hog


    Re Quite-felatio and de-motivator and other knockers, they are probably accustomed to a certain ‘life-style’ that keeps them in their respective locations......maybe they are both stuck in their respective location due to the speciality of their professions.....maybe they could move to a new location but are unwilling to accept the ‘pay-cut ‘ that would transpire......whatever way it is their contributions to this thread will have eff all impact on this investment other than p1ssing off the locals who think think this project/investment is going to be the perceived game changer that it could and should be.....they are akin to the bitter folk who left Ireland in the 50’s / 60’s for UK etc and who couldn’t deal with the Celtic tiger etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭jelutong


    There's a full page article about the development in today's Sunday Times.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    What does it say can someone do a photo or screengrab for the impecunious :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭914


    What does it say can someone do a photo or screengrab for the impecunious :)


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/quay-to-the-future-waterfords-waterfront-transformation-bqv99x0hr


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭Gavlor




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭914


    Gavlor wrote: »
    You need to google the meaning of impecunious!

    That's what I get for not reading the full post! 😛


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭engiweirdo


    Can sign up with (any) email address and read the article for free.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,427 ✭✭✭mooseknunkle


    What does it say can someone do a photo or screengrab for the impecunious :)

    This time last year, Fawaz Abdulaziz Alhokair was one of hundreds of Saudi Arabian businessmen reportedly detained in the rather gilded surroundings of the Ritz-Carlton hotel in Riyadh. The mass detention, which included Prince Alaweed bin Talal, the largest shareholder in Citigroup, and other members of the royal family and business elite, was said to be part of a sweep of the business elite by the kingdom’s authorities.

    Most of the detainees were released in January, with Alhokair soon back hosting dinners for important clients. “It’s as if he was on a business trip or a summer holiday or a religious trip,” an attendee of an Alhokair event told Reuters. “He is fully motivated, full of ambitions.”

    One of those ambitions, unlikely as it seems, is the regeneration of Waterford city. Last Friday a subsidiary of the Fawaz Alhokair Group signed an agreement to redevelop the city’s North Quays, a brownfield site that used to house the R&H Hall flour mills and grain silos.

    The subsidiary, Falcon Real Estate Development Ireland, is planning “a mixed-use lifestyle and recreational destination” consisting of a large shopping mall, cinema, 180-bed four-star hotel and conference centre, offices, a 300-unit residential complex, river boardwalk and visitor centre.

    The Saudi group is said to be preparing to commit €300m to the urban regeneration project.

    The agreement was heartily welcomed by local politicians, as a boost not just for the city but the entire southeast. It is one of only two so-called strategic development zones outside of Dublin. With SDZ status, any planning permission secured through the local authorities cannot be appealed to An Bord Pleanala.

    The SDZ itself was approved without consideration by An Bord Pleanala last May, after the only two objections to the project were withdrawn.

    The North Quays redevelopment has been embraced by the region’s local authorities, led by Waterford city council chief executive Michael Walsh, who played hurling for Waterford in two Munster finals in the 1980s and was a driving force behind the Waterford Greenway, a popular cycle trail. Lands have been purchased for infrastructure improvements, including the relocation of the city’s train and bus stations to a new transport interchange, and the construction of a bridge to link the North Quays to the city’s medieval heart.

    Falcon Real Estate Development Ireland also has an agreement with Waterford city council and Nama to buy land in the same historic quarter for a second 10,000 sq m shopping centre.

    The next step is an application for aid of €104m from the government’s Urban Regeneration and Development Fund to finance the infrastructure improvements.

    Falcon Real Estate Development Ireland director Rob Cass is confident of a favourable response. “It ticks all the boxes,” he said. These include being an “innovative and transformational urban regeneration project” that will “leverage significant further public and private sector investment” and be “a catalyst for development that would not otherwise occur”.

    Fawaz Alhokair
    Fawaz Alhokair
    Salman Alhokair
    Salman Alhokair
    The application will challenge the government’s commitment to promote prosperity for the regions. On his Ireland 2040 roadshow last March, the taoiseach Leo Varadkar tweeted that a “strong Waterford city will lead the development of the wider southeast”. He added that the North Quays strategic development zone was “a priority”. Under the Ireland 2040 plan, the population of Waterford is set to grow by 35,000 or 50%.

    Fine Gael senator Paudie Coffey said the development would help counter Dublin’s “economic vortex”, which sucks in jobs, investment and people.

    When the detailed planning proposal is made early next year, according to Cass, it will be a regeneration worthy of 2030, not 2020, with strong sustainability credentials. An editorial in The Munster Express, the city’s biggest-selling newspaper, summed up the collective enthusiasm, concluding that it was Waterford’s “time to shine”.

    While improving, economically, the region is a laggard. According to the southeast economic monitor, compiled by Waterford Institute of Technology (WIT), the unemployment rate (7.2%) is well above the national average (5.7%). It is one of only two of the country’s eight regions not to have reached a government Action Plan for Jobs target of bringing unemployment within one percentage point of the national average.

    It has the second-highest proportion of workers on the national minimum wage. Average household disposable income, at €34,700, has not passed its pre-crisis levels and substantially lags the median nominal income in Dublin (€46,000). Consumption, as measured by VAT returns, is just 40% of the national average, while new car registrations also trail much of the rest of the country.

    The monitor concludes that the recent drop in unemployment “masks further deterioration of the [southeast’s] labour market” and the region “is being left behind relative to most of the other seven regions of Ireland”.

    The WIT academics see an improvement in educational infrastructure as the best way to bridge the gap, yet Cass said that the North Quays regeneration project would also play its part, as a magnet for foreign direct investment and a centre for local enterprise.

    Abdul Majeed Abdulaziz Alhokair
    Abdul Majeed Abdulaziz Alhokair
    Falcon are portrayed as “long-term, visionary” investors. Billionaire brothers Fawaz, Salman and Abdul Majeed Abdulaziz Alhokair started their retail fashion empire with two menswear shops in Riyadh in 1990. Over the following decade, they started taking on the franchises of some of the world’s biggest fashion brands including Gap, Banana Republic and the various Inditex makes. In 2002, they started to build shopping centres to house the retail brands.

    Arabian Centres is now the largest mall operator in Saudi Arabia, with 19 outlets. The group has used its franchise experience to drive brands into the Caucasus and Balkans, representing top fashion names in Azerbaijan and Georgia, Serbia and Montenegro.

    It has branched into hotels in Saudi Arabia, offering a similar franchise route for international brands before establishing its own chain. Now one of Saudi Arabia’s richest men, Fawaz Alhokair purchased a penthouse apartment at 432 Park Avenue in New York for $87.7m (€77.3bn) in 2016, then America’s tallest and priciest apartment.

    The focus of the group over the past decade has been to lessen its exposure to the Saudi consumer. It has bought Aldo footwear shops in Spain, and set up a clothing venture with the fashion retail guru George Davies, a former Next chief executive.

    It is planning two shopping malls in Milan, where Alhokair has also been repeatedly touted as a buyer of the troubled AC Milan football club, once owned by the businessman and politician Silvio Berlusconi. It also has interests in housebuilding and solar energy.

    Its Irish interest is down primarily to Cass. A former consultant with KPMG Boxwood, he worked for Fawaz Alhokair in Riyadh in investor relations and strategy. He returned to live in Dungarvan, Co Waterford, in 2016, and was introduced to architect Niall Harrington of Fewer Harrington. The firm has been working on a plan for Waterford’s North Quays for some time.

    Cass brought the idea to Fawaz. “It is pretty rare to get the chance to develop one kilometre of waterfront in a European regional city,” he said.

    He said that the development would be subject to financing, and he expected the company to secure debt funding from Irish or international banks or possibly pension funds. He added that the city council might take 50% of the space on the office block for an innovation start-up hub.

    Falcon itself will not be short of funds. A plan, touted for the past three years, has been to raise up to $2bn through the flotation of 30% of Arabian Centres to help drive international expansion. Senior group executives are expected in Waterford for an official launch this month, when the scale of their investment may become more apparent.

    The retail element of the plan is obviously critical. Less than a mile from North Quays, the Ferrybank shopping centre was built just over a decade ago at a cost of €95m. It has never opened and is currently in the hands of Nama.

    North Quays plans to be a destination mall for the southeast, a region short on a shopping centre of scale.

    If the Alhokair group can bring Marks & Spencer to Kazakhstan, it is argued, then it surely could find enough tenants for a shopping centre, or two, in Waterford.

    Waterford draws the wizard of Oz

    Fawaz Alhokair Group is not the only overseas-based investor looking at developing in Waterford city. Originally from Mooncoin in south Co Kilkenny but now based in Australia, Seamus Walsh has been an active purchaser of land in the city over the past five years, first buying Waterford Castle, a hotel and golf resort originally developed by local businessman Eddie Kearns and the Smurfit group.

    Last year Walsh moved to buy the Ard Ri site, formerly a Jurys hotel, overlooking the North Quays on the less-than-encouraging-sounding Mount Misery. He paid €1.5m for the 20-acre site, which has panoramic views across the city and its hinterland.

    Walsh proposes to reconstitute the derelict hotel as a five-star property with spa, and to develop the additional lands as a tourist resort, in conjunction with the adjacent Waterford Golf Club. He has also bought a further 18 acres of lands on the south side of the river at Bilberry, the former home of Waterford Stanley, a range cooker manufacturer. The Stanley factory closed last year. According to local reports, Walsh plans to develop apartments and leisure amenities on the site once the North Quays development is completed.

    Walsh left Mooncoin as a 19-year-old and has residential development interests in Australia.
    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Someone should have told the author why the ferrybank shopping centre was a failure and indeed the dubious circumstances of its development.

    Otherwise a decent write up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭TheQuietFella


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Re Quite-felatio and de-motivator and other knockers, they are probably accustomed to a certain ‘life-style’ that keeps them in their respective locations......maybe they are both stuck in their respective location due to the speciality of their professions.....maybe they could move to a new location but are unwilling to accept the ‘pay-cut ‘ that would transpire......whatever way it is their contributions to this thread will have eff all impact on this investment other than p1ssing off the locals who think think this project/investment is going to be the perceived game changer that it could and should be.....they are akin to the bitter folk who left Ireland in the 50’s / 60’s for UK etc and who couldn’t deal with the Celtic tiger etc

    I'm not in any way bitter to be perfectly honest!
    Disappointed at how things turned out but that's another story!
    I want nothing but the best for my home county but that
    unfortunately is NEVER going to happen especially with the parochial
    mentality that is ingrained within the minds of our people.

    Same old, same old...….waiting for something to happen!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    I'm not in any way bitter to be perfectly honest!
    Disappointed at how things turned out but that's another story!
    I want nothing but the best for my home county but that
    unfortunately is NEVER going to happen especially with the parochial
    mentality that is ingrained within the minds of our people.

    Same old, same old...….waiting for something to happen!

    I agree with that from about 5/6 years ago and before, that the council was asleep at the wheel while Waterford just kept falling further and further behind. Not all their fault but they have to take some of the blame.

    Since that time, i think the council has done a great job, especially considering the fact that we were Deep in recession. Finally, i dont know how you can say they are not currently doing anything when we are on the cusp of the largest FDI investment in the history of the irish state outside of Dublin. It's just totally incorrect to say that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭Road-Hog


    I'm not in any way bitter to be perfectly honest!
    Disappointed at how things turned out but that's another story!
    I want nothing but the best for my home county but that
    unfortunately is NEVER going to happen especially with the parochial
    mentality that is ingrained within the minds of our people.

    Same old, same old...….waiting for something to happen!

    I don’t know what sort of people you know or hung around in your youth. Yes there are some as you describe but definitely a minority. How can you say ‘never’ going to happen. I remember about ten years ago or more now a lot of people doubted and said like you waterford would ‘never’ get a second bridge.......it actually happened as did the ‘toll free’ motorway to Dublin.....are these not a couple of examples, others might be the Greenway, various public realm improvements in the last 3/4 years......


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Perhaps a more productive discussion might be to consider how the proposed retail space, and more importantly office space, might be filled, taking the points which have been raised into consideration.

    Some of the companies like State Street et al who are up in Kilkenny would be ideal for this type of site - a mini Waterford version of the IFSC could be something to aspire to.

    However, it looks like it might be necessary to attract companies who aren't currently in the area - and it would be important for this to occur for the retail and the apartments to be viable you'd imagine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    As Rob Cass has I believe pointed out Waterford has zero designated new commercial office space in the centre.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭bullpost


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Perhaps a more productive discussion might be to consider how the proposed retail space, and more importantly office space, might be filled, taking the points which have been raised into consideration.

    Some of the companies like State Street et al who are up in Kilkenny would be ideal for this type of site - a mini Waterford version of the IFSC could be something to aspire to.

    However, it looks like it might be necessary to attract companies who aren't currently in the area - and it would be important for this to occur for the retail and the apartments to be viable you'd imagine.

    Also a great opportunity to get some waterfront restaurants and bars with really nice views over the river. This would create a buzz and its something we dont have a whole lot of in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    As Rob Cass has I believe pointed out Waterford has zero designated new commercial office space in the centre.

    I find that Rob says a huge amount, which then needs to be picked through.

    Zero designeated new commercial office space in the centre does not mean that there isn't existing vacant commercial space in the centre. It also does not mean that there isn't new or existing commercial space elsewhere in Waterford.

    But the city centre does indeed not seem to have much commercial activity full stop, and I think companies normally like to operate in clusters rather than being out on their own somewhere. So I'd be interested to see who exactly the target market are, and how might they get them in there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,745 ✭✭✭Deiseen


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Perhaps a more productive discussion might be to consider how the proposed retail space, and more importantly office space, might be filled, taking the points which have been raised into consideration.

    Some of the companies like State Street et al who are up in Kilkenny would be ideal for this type of site - a mini Waterford version of the IFSC could be something to aspire to.

    However, it looks like it might be necessary to attract companies who aren't currently in the area - and it would be important for this to occur for the retail and the apartments to be viable you'd imagine.

    Al Hokair own the franchise rights to many retailers so I imagine it will be pretty easy to fill many of the units initially and then hopefully they can build from that. Guess Rob could explain more.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I find that Rob says a huge amount, which then needs to be picked through.

    Zero designeated new commercial office space in the centre does not mean that there isn't existing vacant commercial space in the centre. It also does not mean that there isn't new or existing commercial space elsewhere in Waterford.

    But the city centre does indeed not seem to have much commercial activity full stop, and I think companies normally like to operate in clusters rather than being out on their own somewhere. So I'd be interested to see who exactly the target market are, and how might they get them in there.

    Sure but a nook here and a cranny there is of little value when looking for significant tenants - many companies really need scale in one location and does anyone know of such that is free in the centre at the moment?

    Just heard that the gubberment cash will come in two tranches.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    I very much doubt that any commercial body will not have sussed out the tenancies etc etc that are being raised here.

    There would be no investment if such basic things were not already planned for.

    Quite obviously Al Hokair see the commercial benefit to them, of this development.

    I have no doubt, despite what might be posted in this thread, that Al Hokair have done their due diligence on their investment and found it positive, provided the required infrastructure is put in place.

    Anyone claiming otherwise should really provide some details of where they have fallen down in doing so.

    The biggest worry, IMO, is whether or not the gov will provide sufficient financial support for that infrastructure to be put in place in a timely manner.
    Without it the project gets abandoned. :(

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Sure but a nook here and a cranny there is of little value when looking for significant tenants - many companies really need scale in one location and does anyone know of such that is free in the centre at the moment?

    Just heard that the gubberment cash will come in two tranches.

    Let me be clear, I'm trying to steer the conversation in a more positive direction, but saying that no other new commercial development in the city centre is currently in the pipeline is very selective commentary.

    I'm just wondering where who the office space clients might be and where they're going to come from.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    You seem to think this is a speculative build.


  • Registered Users Posts: 747 ✭✭✭Dunmoreroader


    Saw elsewhere in the Sunday papers that Marks & Spencer are looking for locations in Waterford.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    You seem to think this is a speculative build.

    I'm not sure if it is or not, but I would imagine that there is a high element of speculation involved in the same way that a property developer has to take a risk that he won't sell all the houses as quick as he'd like, or for the price he'd like to get before embarking on the project.

    Denis O'Brien spoke at the Davos forum earlier this year about the current commercial property speculation in Dublin, about the bubble that's growing, and how there won't be enough people to take up all the space that's in development.

    Taking the cyclical nature of our economy, a downturn is fast approaching which will inevitably cause an oversupply - it's just a matter of when, and how significant it'll be.

    So, while I don't know, I'd really love to find out more, I would be of the opinion that there is an element of speculation involved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Given the cohesive "under one roof" nature of the Fawazal Hokair Group development set up I'd expect most of the available space to be "pre-sold"

    https://www.alhokair.com/hotels/portfolio

    http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Given the cohesive "under one roof" nature of the Fawazal Hokair Group development set up I'd expect most of the available space to be "pre-sold"

    https://www.alhokair.com/hotels/portfolio

    http://www.fawazalhokairfashion.com/

    So we have at least one thing in common - neither of us know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Well done you! At least I'm looking and learning.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Well done you! At least I'm looking and learning.

    Thank you very much, however I must reiterate that I'm trying to steer this thread away from quite negative posting, much of which seems to have been directed at the posters rather than the posts.

    To round this off, it appears that this Saudi company has it's own retail interests which it hopes to include in the development.

    I do not have any knowledge of what the strategy is to fill the office space, and I'd also love to know more about the residential elements to this proposed development.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement