EV owners, do me a quick calculation please.

NIMAN

I am sure someone will be able to work it out fairly quickly as they have likely done it for themselves before they made the switch to EV, but if I change my current car to an EV (excluding the cost to change of course), how much is it likely to save me annually?


Annual mileage : approx 8,000 miles/13,000 km

Current petrol car
35mpg or 6.7l/100km (current petrol price/l = €1.39) (€1210 ??)
Tax €636
Service €200 (inc odd part throughout year)

goz83

Off the top of my head.....assuming spend of 50 a week (give or take) on juice, coupled with the tax saving, you're looking at 3k per annum.

pwurple

Your service costs seem very low. Is there an NCT, parts and a service in that? Mine were up around 1000... maybe my car was older and in worse shape.
Anyway, tax will drop to 120 (saving = 516)
At 35 mpg, for 8000 miles, that's 1039 l of fuel, or €1444 euro @1.39

Your milage is lower than mine, so your savings will be lower.

For that mileage, if I assume a recharge every 120km, that's 108 recharges. If you recharge on nightrate, that's around €2, or €4 on day rates. Assuming night rate, that's €217 recharge cost. Fuel saving = €1227 and if you switch to night rate with night-time appliances running like dishwasher etc, you can expect to save more off your electricity bill again. I charge at work at the moment, but before that, when I got the car originally and switched to a night-meter, rather than my bill going up because I was charging a car, it dropped by ten percent, because I was running a nightmeter. 

Service saving, depends where you go. Mine is under 100 euro, the first one was €60. Let's assume a country average of €100, saving of €100
Don't know if you live anywhere there are other incentives, like parking etc. 

Conservative Totals
516
1227
100
= 1843

NIMAN

I put down €200 as an annual service cost, but of course when I think about it now its likely higher.

The oil and filter change etc would normally cost me €150 or so. I added €50 for the odd part or two, which is obviously an under estimation. I have been lucky and not needed many major parts, only big one since I bought the car was a radiator which cost me maybe €300 to buy and fit.

But the car is an 08, and its likely that parts will need replacing on a more regular basis as it gets older. Its last service cost me €180 as the guy has to fit some brake pads too.

unkel

Let's play devil's advocate here. Your current fuel consumption and tax are relatively low. So your savings in going EV will be relatively small

And don't forget the depreciation on what you are getting is most likely a lot higher than on your current car, so it could well be that you will actually lose money, not save any!

NIMAN

unkel wrote: »

Let's play devil's advocate here. Your current fuel consumption and tax are relatively low. So your savings in going EV will be relatively small

And don't forget the depreciation on what you are getting is most likely a lot higher than on your current car, so it could well be that you will actually lose money, not save any!

Thats a big statement.

I would hope to get around €5k if I sold my current car, likely less.

If I was to buy a 2nd hand EV tomorrow, it would likely be one of the 132 around €11900 on CarsIreland, so it would probably cost me €6500-€7000 to change.

Having said that, I'd be changing a 2008 for a 2013, which I would intend to keep until it died.

pwurple

If you buy one for ~ 6500, and it saves you 1843 per year, it will have completely paid for itself in 3.5 years, and is almost earning you money from that point on.
For the 132 car, check the battery pack on that with LeafSpy,  make sure the range fits your commute.

grogi

NIMAN wrote: »

I am sure someone will be able to work it out fairly quickly as they have likely done it for themselves before they made the switch to EV, but if I change my current car to an EV (excluding the cost to change of course), how much is it likely to save me annually?


Annual mileage : approx 8,000 miles/13,000 km

Current petrol car
35mpg or 6.7l/100km (current petrol price/l = €1.39) (€1210 ??)
Tax €636
Service €200 (inc odd part throughout year)

Petrol: 13000km * 6.7l/100km * €1.39/l = €1210
EV for the same: 13000km * 15kWh/100km * €0.24/kWh = €470

Plus tax €500; Total savings of ~€1200/year.


Servicing will be cheaper as well: if the tax is 636 (so it's 2007 or older), no-way you'll keep the current car serviced for €200 a year. I'd rather say €500. Include cheaper insurance.

Balmed Out

pwurple wrote: »

and if you switch to night rate with night-time appliances running like dishwasher etc, you can expect to save more off your electricity bill again

I always wonder about this.
Day-rate hours are
8:00am – 11:00pm in the winter and
9:00am – 12:00 midnight in the summer
My washing machine is fairly modern but other appliances arent so cant be timed to start at a certain time. Perhaps im earlier to bed then most but I would really have to remember to turn the washing machine, dishwasher, dryer etc on in the morning before I leave which is a time of the day im always rushing about and likely to forget something.
Im trying to picture my appliances and the possibility of a plug timer but more hassle.

cros13

grogi wrote: »

€0.24/kWh

:eek: Where do you get your leccy? More like €0.13/kWh for 24H meters and €0.06/kWh for nightsaver.

OPs mileage is likely to go up when switched to EV... it's up to you whether you count that as an avoided cost or not.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

:eek: Where do you get your leccy? More like €0.13/kWh for 24H meters and €0.06/kWh for nightsaver.

OPs mileage is likely to go up when switched to EV... it's up to you whether you count that as an avoided cost or not.

I did not have my bill at hand, so just googled

kWh price Ireland

and got:

Electricity prices in Ireland cost €24.1 per 100kWh, a figure that is dwarfed by only Denmark, Germany and Cyprus. The EU average price is €20.1 per 100 kWh while the lowest costs are found in Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary.May 22, 2014
Irish electricity prices fourth most expensive in Europe - Switcher.ie
https://switcher.ie/blog/gas.../irish-electricity-prices-fourth-most-expensive-in-europe/

If it's only 0.06 kWh, happy days

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

I am sure someone will be able to work it out fairly quickly as they have likely done it for themselves before they made the switch to EV, but if I change my current car to an EV (excluding the cost to change of course), how much is it likely to save me annually?


Annual mileage : approx 8,000 miles/13,000 km

Current petrol car
35mpg or 6.7l/100km (current petrol price/l = €1.39) (€1210 ??)
Tax €636
Service €200 (inc odd part throughout year)

By my calculation 35mpg=8l/100, not 6.7l?

At 8l/100km you are using 1040 litres so thats €1445

For the EV, assuming all home charging and including charger efficiency, you would be using ~18kWh/100km so that's 2340kWh's which can be got for about 7c/kWh at night rate so a total electricity cost of €164


So, savings for 13000 km's on the items you know for sure are:

Fuel €1445-€164= €1281
Tax €636-€120=€516

Total for known items: €1797

Insurance should be cheaper (Zurich offer a specific EV policy which cost me €349 in Jan '17) which is the cheapest insurance I've paid for many a year so expect to save a hundred or two there.

Servicing should be cheaper particularly as your current car gets older. It costs €130/yr for a Leaf and you only have to do it if you want to maintain warranty. If you buy a car that is over 5yrs old then you can just forget the service as there isnt anything to actually service other than Wipers, brakes, tyres.

You need to add in the one off cost of the home charger.... €700ish

As unkel said the depreciation will be higher on the "new" EV relative to the current car but thats true also if you buy another ICE.

So you have to decide if the ~€2k of annual savings is enough to counteract the depreciation and to be honest if you buy second hand the depreciation on the Leaf will be quite small as the big hit has already been taken so I think you can assume a €2k saving every year.

cros13

Yeah... even the standard 24h tariffs before any discounts or offers top out under 18c/kWh:

https://www.sseairtricity.com/ie/home/products/current-offers-2/sse-airtricity-standard-electricity/

Of course any self-respecting EV owner is going to negotiate a good rate and get a nightsaver meter if suitable:

https://www.bonkers.ie/compare-gas-electricity-prices/energia/F6CMHG/energia-clever-electricity--web-exclusive-33--/

unkel

NIMAN wrote: »

I would hope to get around €5k if I sold my current car, likely less.

If I was to buy a 2nd hand EV tomorrow, it would likely be one of the 132 around €11900 on CarsIreland, so it would probably cost me €6500-€7000 to change.

Having said that, I'd be changing a 2008 for a 2013, which I would intend to keep until it died.

Let's say that's 7 years and you'll get it for €10k and your current car is worth €4k. That means (simplified, not taking into account opportunity costs of money, etc.) that your depreciation will be €1430 per year vs €570 on your old car, so a loss of €860

This loss compared to savings of €1,000 in fuel and €500 in tax still means you have substantial monthly savings and a 5 year younger car

So that's all good. But do take into account hidden costs like you will have to get a charger installed at home, which isn't cheap, it will eat up all of your first years savings all by itself!!!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Let's say that's 7 years and you'll get it for €10k and your current car is worth €4k. That means (simplified, not taking into account opportunity costs of money, etc.) that your depreciation will be €1430 per year vs €570 on your old car, so a loss of €860

This loss compared to savings of €1,000 in fuel and €500 in tax still means you have substantial monthly savings and a 5 year younger car

So that's all good. But do take into account hidden costs like you will have to get a charger installed at home, which isn't cheap, it will eat up all of your first years savings all by itself!!!

The charger will cost about €700 installed. His annual saving on fuel and tax are €1800 so hardly "all"?!


He also needs to come up with a figure that he believes will cover servicing the ICE for the next 7 years. It wont be €200/yr unless he has an ultra reliable car and is lucky with it. The extra servicing costs will negate the lower depreciation on the ICE so I think the savings are better than you suggest

Its very hard to give a figure for servicing when you dont know whats going to go wrong. Thats why I separated out the figures for known and unknown.

slave1

There is also an unquantifiable gain in avoided repairs...

e.g. you have a 8 year old car going grand but who's to say that tomorrow morning something "big" might go, cat converter/gasket etc. so by purchasing a newer car you potentially avoid future repair costs, this can of course be said of any time you trade up but with an EV you have eliminated the chances of your upgraded car suffering the same fate e.g. the cat or gasket will not go on your EV at 3/4 years old because those parts don't exist.....

Hope this explains the point

BoatMad

my own view, having owned many old cars, is that owners almost inevitably under estimate servicing costs , clutch replacement , battery replacement, brake pads, and brake discs etc

slave1

NIMAN wrote: »

I am sure someone will be able to work it out fairly quickly as they have likely done it for themselves before they made the switch to EV, but if I change my current car to an EV (excluding the cost to change of course), how much is it likely to save me annually?


Annual mileage : approx 8,000 miles/13,000 km

Current petrol car
35mpg or 6.7l/100km (current petrol price/l = €1.39) (€1210 ??)
Tax €636
Service €200 (inc odd part throughout year)

I had an excel calculator prior to my purchase and based on your data I estimate your current fuel costs at €1,211, based on a full night charge at home cost of €2.72 (30kWh Leaf) I estimate 96 full charges to achieve 13,000kms (conservative estimate) at a cost of €236 per annum (I assumed 10% of charges free at public charge point).
You should save €516 car tax and in servicing I estimated a conservative €70 a year.

So, my calculator works up a €1,561 saving per annum ignoring other non-quantitative benefits like avoiding future repairs, saving the polar bear etc.

NIMAN

slave1 wrote: »

There is also an unquantifiable gain in avoided repairs...

e.g. you have a 8 year old car going grand but who's to say that tomorrow morning something "big" might go, cat converter/gasket etc. so by purchasing a newer car you potentially avoid future repair costs, this can of course be said of any time you trade up but with an EV you have eliminated the chances of your upgraded car suffering the same fate e.g. the cat or gasket will not go on your EV at 3/4 years old because those parts don't exist.....

Hope this explains the point

Of course it does, you do make a good point as the older an ICE car gets the more parts it'll need, and likely more expensive parts at that.

I do know I have probably underestimated the servicing costs, but to be honest, since I bought my Honda a few years ago, the radiator has been the only major part I have needed (and that was damaged by one of my children putting stones into it). Outside of that and the brake pads replaced last month, I have only paid for standard service costs of oil and filters, and new tyres.

Its been a very reliable car for me, but I'm not stupid, I know its 9 years old now and will start to cost me money in the future, unless I'm incredibly lucky.

KCross

@NIMAN, what is your daily mileage?

The total mileage is useful to get an overall picture but you really need to know if the car covers your daily commute with ease?

Do you do any longer trips?
Do you have a second car in the house to give flexibility?
Do you have access to a driveway where the car can be charged from your house?

Have you considered these other points?

NIMAN

KCross wrote: »

@NIMAN, what is your daily mileage?

The total mileage is useful to get an overall picture but you really need to know if the car covers your daily commute with ease?

Do you do any longer trips?
Do you have a second car in the house to give flexibility?
Do you have access to a driveway where the car can be charged from your house?

Have you considered these other points?

It covers the commute easily.

This is the 2nd car in the house, the one that does the school run (3km each way, 3 times per day). Runs into the nearest town to shop (another 3km each way), and maybe the odd weekly trip to granny (40km each way). The OH sometimes uses it to go to work too (15km each way). So its perfectly suited to all these runs.

Also have access to a driveway ok, so no issue there. Have a garage too, but usually not enough room to put a car in it!

The car in question does have one advantage, space. It is used for 3 kids under 8. So we have a baby seat and 2 boosters at present, not sure if Leaf would accommoate them as well?
It is also used for the odd long run to the likes of Belfast for Easter breaks etc. But the ICE could do that if needed.

GatsbyGal

KCross wrote: »

By my calculation 35mpg=8l/100, not 6.7l?

At 8l/100km you are using 1040 litres so thats €1445

For the EV, assuming all home charging and including charger efficiency, you would be using ~18kWh/100km so that's 2340kWh's which can be got for about 7c/kWh at night rate so a total electricity cost of €164


So, savings for 13000 km's on the items you know for sure are:

Fuel €1445-€164= €1281
Tax €636-€120=€516

Total for known items: €1797

Insurance should be cheaper (Zurich offer a specific EV policy which cost me €349 in Jan '17) which is the cheapest insurance I've paid for many a year so expect to save a hundred or two there.

Servicing should be cheaper particularly as your current car gets older. It costs €130/yr for a Leaf and you only have to do it if you want to maintain warranty. If you buy a car that is over 5yrs old then you can just forget the service as there isnt anything to actually service other than Wipers, brakes, tyres.

You need to add in the one off cost of the home charger.... €700ish

As unkel said the depreciation will be higher on the "new" EV relative to the current car but thats true also if you buy another ICE.

So you have to decide if the ~€2k of annual savings is enough to counteract the depreciation and to be honest if you buy second hand the depreciation on the Leaf will be quite small as the big hit has already been taken so I think you can assume a €2k saving every year.

Do you mind me asking if you had to specifically tell them that it was an EV you were driving? I called Zurich in Jan too and they gave me a quote of over €700. I have a Nissan leaf. It made no difference whatsoever that it was an electric car we were insuring. It was almost the exact same quote that we got for our ten year old ICE.

Calahonda52

GatsbyGal wrote: »

Do you mind me asking if you had to specifically tell them that it was an EV you were driving? I called Zurich in Jan too and they gave me a quote of over €700. I have a Nissan leaf. It made no difference whatsoever that it was an electric car we were insuring. It was almost the exact same quote that we got for our ten year old ICE.

did you not use this
http://www.zurichinsurance.ie/car-insurance/electric-car-insurance.htm

call them up...

NIMAN

I noticed this line in that link:

Free towing to the nearest available public charge point or to your home charge point (whichever is the nearer) in the event of your car running out of charge

Did I not hear that you can't tow an EV?

GatsbyGal

Calahonda52 wrote: »

did you not use this
http://www.zurichinsurance.ie/car-insurance/electric-car-insurance.htm

call them up...

That link just takes me to their home page. I did call them and no dice. Still getting quoted over €700.

grogi

NIMAN wrote: »

I noticed this line in that link:

Free towing to the nearest available public charge point or to your home charge point (whichever is the nearer) in the event of your car running out of charge

Did I not hear that you can't tow an EV?

a) why?! Regen can happen only on a powered axle...
b) and if a) gives a valid reason, there are towing platforms so no wheel rotates - dedicated for 4wd cars...

pwurple

Are the boosters high back or the small boosters? I have two high backs in the back of mine, and we fit an adult in between them. You might want to check the boosters width in the back of a leaf, depends on your own boosters as well a bit.
On appliances without a timer... ours don't either. We don't find it too much of a hardship to load the dishwasher / washing machine during the day, and just press the Go button on the way up to bed. We've a timer plug on the dryer.

pwurple

NIMAN, yes, you can tow an EV, but you are not supposed to take a trailer with the leaf. It puts too much pressure on the battery. Maybe that's what you heard? You can't tow a trailer.

NIMAN

I know I didn't imagine it

http://gas2.org/2011/02/26/towing-an-electric-car-could-damage-its-motor/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-1oCVlElY
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1055733_has-your-electric-car-stopped-working-flatbed-it-dont-tow


Update: found this on Nissan's own Q&A section:

Q: Can the Nissan LEAF be towed by lifting the front and leaving the rear wheels on the ground? Towing procedures are outlined in the Owner's Manual provided with the vehicle. The simple answer is Yes. The LEAF cannot however be towed will all wheels on the ground.

KCross

NIMAN wrote: »

It covers the commute easily.

This is the 2nd car in the house, the one that does the school run (3km each way, 3 times per day). Runs into the nearest town to shop (another 3km each way), and maybe the odd weekly trip to granny (40km each way). The OH sometimes uses it to go to work too (15km each way). So its perfectly suited to all these runs.

Also have access to a driveway ok, so no issue there. Have a garage too, but usually not enough room to put a car in it!

Sounds like EV is ideal for you then.

NIMAN wrote: »

The car in question does have one advantage, space. It is used for 3 kids under 8. So we have a baby seat and 2 boosters at present, not sure if Leaf would accommoate them as well?

I have 3 under 8 as well and no issues but our youngest is in a booster, not a baby seat. However, I think you'd still fit them in fine unless yours are built like Paul O'Connell!

Best thing to do is get a loan of one and try it our for a day.

GatsbyGal wrote: »

Do you mind me asking if you had to specifically tell them that it was an EV you were driving? I called Zurich in Jan too and they gave me a quote of over €700. I have a Nissan leaf. It made no difference whatsoever that it was an electric car we were insuring. It was almost the exact same quote that we got for our ten year old ICE.

I did it all online so I did "tell" them it was an EV as I had to select it in their system and thats what they came back with. Not sure why your quote would be twice mine.

Insurance is a bit of a lottery.... maybe its your age or location that increased your premium? I presume you dont have claims or penalty points driving it up?

NIMAN wrote: »

I know I didn't imagine it

http://gas2.org/2011/02/26/towing-an-electric-car-could-damage-its-motor/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-1oCVlElY
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1055733_has-your-electric-car-stopped-working-flatbed-it-dont-tow


Update: found this on Nissan's own Q&A section:

Q: Can the Nissan LEAF be towed by lifting the front and leaving the rear wheels on the ground? Towing procedures are outlined in the Owner's Manual provided with the vehicle. The simple answer is Yes. The LEAF cannot however be towed will all wheels on the ground.

From my reading of it you can tow it all day long if the front wheels are off the ground.
If the front wheels are on the ground you need to ensure the car is in neutral to ensure the motor is disengaged. That requires being able to power on the car which you might not be able to do if the battery is dead!

I bet there is a way to manually disengage the motor, otherwise it would result in the flatbed dragging the car when it is pulling it up which could do damage. Must check a few forums for that one as it might be useful info someday!

EDIT: One thread here which discussed towing and getting the car charged at the same time! I cant say if there is lasting damage to doing that or not.
https://speakev.com/threads/towing-regen.30809/

goz83

NIMAN wrote: »

The car in question does have one advantage, space. It is used for 3 kids under 8. So we have a baby seat and 2 boosters at present, not sure if Leaf would accommoate them as well?
It is also used for the odd long run to the likes of Belfast for Easter breaks etc. But the ICE could do that if needed.

I've got 5 kids. The younger ones are 15 months, 4 and 6. The leaf can comfortably fit a baby seat and 2 boosters. I use the bottom only boosters, so I can't comment on the full back ones, but I reckon they would fit too. For a small car, it's surprisingly roomy.