Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

Chiparus

The Kop wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything I said?
You have a habit of turning everything back to cars. You need to change the record mate.
I personally wouldn't put my kids in one of those contraptions. I think parents who do are irresponsible. It really has nothing to do with cars or the amount of kids who are killed in either.

I dont think they are any more dangerous than allowing your child to walk along a footpath.

mloc123

Chiparus wrote: »

I dont think they are any more dangerous than allowing your child to walk along a footpath.

I am going to start tutting at parents I see pushing buggies just inches away from busy roads... very irresponsible. What would happen if a car or truck was to mount the kerb, why do parents choose to put their kids at such risk? I will never understand.

RebelButtMunch

benjamin d wrote: »

Ok then let's ignore the cargo bike (since it's so safe there are literally no death stats)

How about that 37% of childhood deaths figure? Is that a crap statistic? If cycling stats were within an ass's roar of that figure bikes would have been banned years ago. Will I expect to see you outside Leinster house calling for an end to motor vehicles? Because if you're concerned about child safety that's exactly what you should be doing.

In fact all the stats point towards banning cars - law breaking, pollution, cost to taxpayers, public safety... all vehicle and driver issues that are hugely detrimental to society.

So will I meet you at the Dail?

Janey mack. Play the ball man and stick with the program.

How about we consider that every cyclist killed or injured so far this year had a trailer on the back of their bike with 2 kids in it. Totally horrific even to contemplate one child dying never mind what that number would.

We are arguing hypothetically anyway. One thing I can say for sure is that every day I see drivers acting the arse and I would NEVER EVER consider towing kids behind me with those drivers on the road. I personally consider anyone that does so, to be taking a gigantic risk with their childrens lives and I thing they are wrong to do so.

mloc123

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Janey mack. Play the ball man and stick with the program.

How about we consider that every cyclist killed or injured so far this year had a trailer on the back of their bike with 2 kids in it. Totally horrific even to contemplate one child dying never mind what that number would.

We are arguing hypothetically anyway. One thing I can say for sure is that every day I see drivers acting the arse and I would NEVER EVER consider towing kids behind me with those drivers on the road. I personally consider anyone that does so, to be taking a gigantic risk with their childrens lives and I thing they are wrong to do so.

Imagine if every car crash that resulted in a death this year on the roads also had two kids in the back that were killed... if we are imagining stuff, lets make it equal right?

RebelButtMunch

mloc123 wrote: »

Imagine if every car crash that resulted in a death this year on the roads also had two kids in the back that were killed... if we are imagining stuff, lets make it equal right?

You're the one that started with the rubbish stats and comparing apples and oranges. But in this case I'll concede that we can't compare at all.

mloc123

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You're the one that started with the rubbish stats and comparing apples and oranges. But in this case I'll concede that we can't compare at all.

Did I?

RebelButtMunch

mloc123 wrote: »

Did I?

If you think I'm going to get into some kind of weird internet argument quote/bold argument with you you're off your rocker. #ignore

mloc123

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

If you think I'm going to get into some kind of weird internet argument quote/bold argument with you you're off your rocker. #ignore

I am asking a genuine question, I haven't mentioned stats at all. I am assuming you are mixing me up with somebody else that posted.

CramCycle

The Kop wrote: »

What's that got to do with anything I said?
You have a habit of turning everything back to cars. You need to change the record mate.
I personally wouldn't put my kids in one of those contraptions. I think parents who do are irresponsible. It really has nothing to do with cars or the amount of kids who are killed in either.

Your choice, I don't really care. You can think all you want but in this case you are wrong. I am far from irresponsible. Teaching my kids that there are other ways to get around is very responsible.

Martin567

magicbastarder wrote: »

http://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2015/TRAFFIC-COLLISIONS-LEADING-CAUSE-OF-CHILD-MORTALITY-IN-IRELAND/

Thanks for those.

The numbers still seem very odd though. Even taking U15 as the definition of a child, I'm very surprised that only 38 (14÷.367) children under the age of 15 died in all of Ireland over the course of a full year.

RebelButtMunch

Chiparus wrote: »

I dont think they are any more dangerous than allowing your child to walk along a footpath.

Can I just double check that you think that it's just as safe for a child to be on a footpath as a road?

CramCycle

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

If you think I'm going to get into some kind of weird internet argument quote/bold argument with you you're off your rocker. #ignore

There is a post only a few back which actually shows where the stats were gotten from. It is on the RSA website.

benjamin d

RebelButtMunch you came on here to defend someone who made a nonsense statement with no basis in fact whatsoever, and proceeded to dismiss actual statistical evidence against that statement as "crap" with no follow-up. Then you made up a story about if there were two kids attached to each bike involved in fatal accidents, and THEN you accuse the people who aren't taking this bull of making up hypothetical arguments?

You having no idea what you're talking about, and you're in a cycling forum giving out to cyclists about something for which there is not only no evidence, but in actual fact there is evidence to disprove, that being that cargo bikes are dangerous and irresponsible.

RebelButtMunch

benjamin d wrote: »

RebelButtMunch you came on here to defend someone who made a nonsense statement with no basis in fact whatsoever, and proceeded to dismiss actual statistical evidence against that statement as "crap" with no follow-up. Then you made up a story about if there were two kids attached to each bike involved in fatal accidents, and THEN you accuse the people who aren't taking this bull of making up hypothetical arguments?

You having no idea what you're talking about, and you're in a cycling forum giving out to cyclists about something for which there is not only no evidence, but in actual fact there is evidence to disprove, that being that cargo bikes are dangerous and irresponsible.

You're wrong. I know what I'm taking about. I cycle every day. I experience near misses and dangerous situations just like everyone here and I'm totally delighted that I didn't have my kids in tow when they happened.

I challange anyone on this forum to say that they would be comfortable having their kids with them when the had a near miss or accident

mloc123

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Can I just double check that you think that it's just as safe for a child to be on a footpath as a road?

In 2017 30 pedestrians were killed compared to 15 cyclists.. Maybe it is safer to cycle than it is to walk.

mr spuckler

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

I challange anyone on this forum to say that they would be comfortable having their kids with them when the had a near miss or accident

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Talk about a straw-man

well, indeed.

CramCycle

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You're wrong. I know what I'm taking about. I cycle every day. I experience near misses and dangerous situations just like everyone here and I'm totally delighted that I didn't have my kids in tow when they happened.

I challange anyone on this forum to say that they would be comfortable having their kids with them when the had a near miss or accident

That is a misleading question and you know it, no one is comfortable with a near miss, hence the answer will be no.

Am I comfortable having my kids with me on my daily commute, 100%, be they in a bike seat or a trailer, I am happy.

This said if your willing to equate your personal experiences as more reliable that more overarching stats, thats fine but I won't be listening.

Did you ever think if your having that many issues, maybe its your cycling that is the issue?

RebelButtMunch

mr spuckler wrote: »

well, indeed.

Thanks for you're contribution, but you know, you're right perhaps. I'll still throw out that challange. I'm sure everyone here has had near misses and I'm in utter disbelief that they would put children in that situation

benjamin d

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You're wrong. I know what I'm taking about. I cycle every day. I experience near misses and dangerous situations just like everyone here and I'm totally delighted that I didn't have my kids in tow when they happened.

I challange anyone on this forum to say that they would be comfortable having their kids with them when the had a near miss or accident

99% of posters here cycle every day, me included - you're not special. Cycling is safe; safer than driving, and just as safe as being a pedestrian.

Obviously evidence isn't going to work on you, but just because your perception of cycling is that it's not safe doesn't mean that it's true. The evidence comprehensively trumps your opinion.

RebelButtMunch

benjamin d wrote: »

99% of posters here cycle every day, me included - you're not special. Cycling is safe; safer than driving, and just as safe as being a pedestrian.

Obviously evidence isn't going to work on you, but just because your perception of cycling is that it's not safe doesn't mean that it's true. The evidence comprehensively trumps your opinion.

I had to laugh that you'd post about safety in a near miss thread!

ewc78

Have to say I wouldn't use one of those trailer things either. To me it's taking an unnecessary risk with your kids lives.
Each to their own though.

magicbastarder

Martin567 wrote: »

Thanks for those.

The numbers still seem very odd though. Even taking U15 as the definition of a child, I'm very surprised that only 38 (14÷.367) children under the age of 15 died in all of Ireland over the course of a full year.

this would seem to show different stats; about two thirds of the way down, 'Deaths by age group, 1916 and 2014'

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/deaths/

in 2014, 38 children between 1 and 4 died; and 249 under 1 (i assume a significant number of these are pre- or post-natal deaths).
but there are another 56 in the 5-14 age bracket.

xckjoo

Personally, I like when my kids are in as close to mortal danger as possible. That's why I only let them cycle if they also carry a loaded gun with the safety off


In all seriousness though, that child mortality stat is eye-opening. It's funny how our perceptual biases can be so misleading.

magicbastarder

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

You're wrong. I know what I'm taking about. I cycle every day. I experience near misses and dangerous situations just like everyone here and I'm totally delighted that I didn't have my kids in tow when they happened.

there's another factor at play - the likelihood of a near miss based on whether you're towing kids or not. both in terms of the behaviour of the cyclist, but more crucially, in the behaviour of drivers.

i've seen it mentioned on several occasions that drivers in general are more courteous or respectful of cyclists pulling trailers or on cargo bikes - but i've not tried either myself, so woudl have to defer to the experience of others.

AndrewJRenko

The Kop wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

How many kids die in cars each year compared to how many kids die in cargo bikes each year?

What's that got to do with anything I said?
You have a habit of turning everything back to cars. You need to change the record mate.
I personally wouldn't put my kids in one of those contraptions. I think parents who do are irresponsible. It really has nothing to do with cars or the amount of kids who are killed in either.

It has everything to do with evidence, facts and data. You are of course welcome to your personal opinions and personal choices. You are not welcome to judge personal choices of others without some evidence.

mr spuckler

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Thanks for you're contribution, but you know, you're right perhaps. I'll still throw out that challange. I'm sure everyone here has had near misses and I'm in utter disbelief that they would put children in that situation.

you've said that you experience all sorts of close passes while out on the bike yourself, yet you continue to cycle.

I occasionally experience close passes when on the bike by myself, though I generally cycle defensively (take the lane etc) so as to reduce them as much as possible.

I've said on this thread earlier today that I don't experience close passes while I have the trailer on the bike. on top of that my son loves being in it, it means not taking the car out everytime I need to go a couple of miles for something and in my opinion it shows him that there are options for getting around other than the car. to this end we also use the bus or dart as much as possible when going longer distances. we bring him to creche on a child seat on the bike because there's no space for the trailer.

it's been shown here that far more pedestrians are killed each year than cyclists and that relatively high numbers of children die in cars each year. I've literally never heard of a child in a trailer being killed or seriously injured.

so all of that shows 2 things in my opinion, 1 being that pretty much every mode of transport is "unsafe" if that's the viewpoint you wish to take and 2 being that there is no evidence to show that bike trailers are more unsafe than other modes of transport. indeed there is a complete lack of evidence to support that theory.

amcalester

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's another factor at play - the likelihood of a near miss based on whether you're towing kids or not. both in terms of the behaviour of the cyclist, but more crucially, in the behaviour of drivers.

i've seen it mentioned on several occasions that drivers in general are more courteous or respectful of cyclists pulling trailers or on cargo bikes - but i've not tried either myself, so woudl have to defer to the experience of others.

A bit like helmets. Cyclist wears a helmet; gets buzzed by motorists, don't wear a helmet and get given more space.

CramCycle

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

Thanks for you're contribution, but you know, you're right perhaps. I'll still throw out that challange. I'm sure everyone here has had near misses and I'm in utter disbelief that they would put children in that situation

Looking at the risks involved though, why would you put your kid in a car, let them near stairs, swim and so on. As a species we weight risk all the time to what we feel appropriate. because many people drive, they, incorrectly, presume it to be the safest way to get around, even though it would not add up like that.

And that is the problem with biases, we let them skew our view and opinion. We cannot help it, the evidence says that using a child trailer is inherently not dangerous for kids but yet many of us are apprehensive to use one. People die of Heart issues and cancer every day but we don't accuse the person eating fast food of being a risk taker.

mloc123

I think the general perception is that cycling in Ireland is dangerous. That every time you go for a cycle you put your life at risk. In reality the stats don't really match that.

Almost 10 times more people drown in Ireland each year than are killed while cycling.

The Kop

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It has everything to do with evidence, facts and data. You are of course welcome to your personal opinions and personal choices. You are not welcome to judge personal choices of others without some evidence.

The amount of kids killed in cars has as much to do with my opinion on those kids trailers for bikes as how many kids die from sky diving every year.
Btw you don't get to tell me who I can judge or not.
Also that's a bit rich coming from someone who judges people for wearing Golf Jumpers