Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

mr spuckler

CramCycle wrote: »

Best you'll get from DB is a GDPR request, CCTV has to be via the gardai

that's what I thought - might be worth noting for Ferris, depending on how far you want to go with it.

Duffryman

Okay, all I can say is sorry folks, I was wrong here. I skipped through the early part of the video on first viewing, because with a lot of video clips posted online, there's a lot of irrelevant footage in the build up to the incident itself. I obviously missed that bit as I skipped through.

So, when I got to that bit around 1:20, I wrongly assumed that was the bit that Ferris was talking about. And when I said I'd watched several times, well, to be more precise, I watched that section from roughly 1:15 to 1:45 several times, so never actually saw that earlier pass at all.

For what it's worth, now that it's been pointed out to me, I agree that first pass was dangerous and that Ferris was justified in going up the inside if his intention was to talk to the driver about it.

So, sorry again. Next video I feel like commenting on, I'll be sure to watch the whole thing properly first.

And by the way...also for what it's worth...glad you seem to agree with me that there was nothing actually wrong with that bit that I wrongly thought was the incident being complained about!

Ferris

Fair play DM

Duffryman

Duffryman wrote: »

Okay, all I can say is sorry folks, I was wrong here. I skipped through the early part of the video on first viewing, because with a lot of video clips posted online, there's a lot of irrelevant footage in the build up to the incident itself. I obviously missed that bit as I skipped through.

So, when I got to that bit around 1:20, I wrongly assumed that was the bit that Ferris was talking about. And when I said I'd watched several times, well, to be more precise, I watched that section from roughly 1:15 to 1:45 several times, so never actually saw that earlier pass at all.

For what it's worth, now that it's been pointed out to me, I agree that first pass was dangerous and that Ferris was justified in going up the inside if his intention was to talk to the driver about it.

So, sorry again. Next video I feel like commenting on, I'll be sure to watch the whole thing properly first.

And by the way...also for what it's worth...glad you seem to agree with me that there was nothing actually wrong with that bit that I wrongly thought was the incident being complained about!

Based purely on this one post online I consider you to be an A1 person in real life and I wish there were more of you. Someone who has opinion but is open to that being corrected and not too proud or stubborn to changing their mind in light of the facts.

benjamin d

mr spuckler wrote: »

...or the road into town Blackrock which seems to feature very regularly.

That was my commute until recently. The marked bike lane is exactly half of the bus lane for much of it so trying to stay within it is asking for trouble. I deliberately stayed to the right of the bike lane where it was especially narrow and rarely had dangerous passes when I did it. Removing the possibility of temptation for drivers to squeeze through is the trick and everyone is happier for it.

magicbastarder

mr spuckler wrote: »

am very glad I don't cycle ... the road into town Blackrock which seems to feature very regularly.

i find this fine usually*, i come onto the rock road at the merrion gates and go to newtownpark avenue.

*except going home (i.e. inbound), you need to keep your eyes open at the punchbowl junction.

Dr_Colossus

Not a near miss but a strange one this morning coming up Carpenterstown Road towards the junction of White’s Rd and Tower Rd passing Castleknock College. Cycling uphill and with no contra traffic there was a lot of beeping from behind, I wasn’t even in the centre of the lane as usually pull in a bit to encourage an overtake when safe to do so but with all the beeping I pulled out further and took position. Eventually a car pulled up beside and rolled down the window but I never gave him a chance and started cursing asking what he was at. As it happens he was only trying to explain that it was the car behind that was causing the problem and trying to overtake both of us as he was manoeuvring out around me, all to sit at the next set of lights a few hundred meters up the road. Sorry again and a lesson in that not everything is as it sounds and to access the situation before jumping down someone’s throat.

What Username Guidelines

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Not a near miss but a strange one this morning coming up Carpenterstown Road towards the junction of White’s Rd and Tower Rd passing Castleknock College. Cycling uphill and with no contra traffic there was a lot of beeping from behind, I wasn’t even in the centre of the lane as usually pull in a bit to encourage an overtake when safe to do so but with all the beeping I pulled out further and took position. Eventually a car pulled up beside and rolled down the window but I never gave him a chance and started cursing asking what he was at. As it happens he was only trying to explain that it was the car behind that was causing the problem and trying to overtake both of us as he was manoeuvring out around me, all to sit at the next set of lights a few hundred meters up the road. Sorry again and a lesson in that not everything is as it sounds and to access the situation before jumping down someone’s throat.

I once gave a decent shout and threw the middle finger at a car which beeped as it overtook me kinda tight, but not the worst. Very perplexed look from driver. Didn't realise until later on it was actually my wife heading in the opposite direction that beeped, it just happened to be at the same time the car overtook

Duckjob

Ferris wrote: »

A punishment pass from a Dublin bus on Tuesday morning. Usually the buses are good on my commute so this was a surprise. Drivers attitude stunk, he drove the bus away in such a manner that I had to move to avoid being hit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_l-06uiVbM

Also, commoner gardener gombeen on a roundabout, didn’t even look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ6OHldo73w

Not to let the driver off the hook, but thats a piss poor piece of infrastructure. Whoever thought it was ok to put a cycle lane barely wide enough for a bicycle right beside a bus lane barely wide enough to contain a bus deserves to lined up and shot with balls of their own sh*te.

In fact, a good rule to implement would be when cycle "infrastructure" is inplemented the planner that ok'd it must cycle it for a couple of weeks before finally signing off on it, so that they can appreciate its "quality" from a self-preservation perspective.

There's a similar piece of sh*te infrastructure I ride in Nth Dublin between Airside and the Airport and The trouble with infrastructure like this is they skew and recalibrate peoples perceptions of what is dangerous, so instead of thinking:

passing cyclist while within my lane = dangerous
passing while encroaching the cycle lane a bit = bat **** crazy dangerous
cycling complaining = Yeah, fair point.

they're now thinking:
passing cyclist while within my lane = all fine (I'm within my lane after all)
passing while encroaching the cycle lane a bit = a bit cheeky, but its ok.
cyclist complaining = whinger, red lights, road tax etc etc etc


Like I said the bus drivers attitude was appalling, but in recent times my eyes have become very opened to how driver behaviour can be heavily influenced for the worse by sh*tty infrastructure like this. It's in exactly the same way that the Dutch use good well thought-out infrastructure to influence driver behaviour there for the better.

Duffryman

Well, I'm back again, and hope I'm not off the mark with my comments this time....!

I'd agree with the above, that what this really shows is an inherent problem with that sort of infrastructure, where there's only barely room for a narrow cycle lane, a bus lane, and a regular traffic lane. If something in one lane encroaches even slightly onto another, somebody somewhere is going to get squeezed.

Thing is...what's the alternative in a place like that?

Just have a shared bus/cycle lane all the way, with all that entails, instead of trying to fit in separate narrow one for each?

A wider cycle lane, and then buses share the rest of the road with ordinary traffic? Am sure cyclists would prefer it that way, but hardly conducive to any efforts to persuade people to use public transport, if they're just going to be held up in regular traffic anyway?

Or....split the footpath there into 50/50 for cyclists and pedestrians, like I've seen in other parts of Dublin? Some cyclists might have to slow down a bit from their usual speed....is that something they'd be agreeable to?

Yillan

Near miss yesterday for a cyclist, not a motorcyclist though. Cyclist breaks lights at Kevin St x Wexford St. Green lights for those heading towards SSG on Kevin St 2 seconds later cyclist comes through red light towards Aungier St. Motorbike has moved off. Forced to break to avoid hitting cyclist. Cyclist waves and keeps going. Car behind hits motorcyclist. Doesn't knock him off the bike, but a bit of a shock. Garda car happens to be passing at the time, U turns to go after the cyclist who has cycled away.

According to the rabble, the gardai caught up with her. Sometimes we cyclists don't do ourselves any favours.

I was wondering though, what sort of trouble could the cyclist be in for leaving the scene of an accident?

AndrewJRenko

Yillan wrote: »

According to the rabble, the gardai caught up with her. Sometimes we cyclists don't do ourselves any favours.

Since when are we collectively responsible for the behaviour of other cyclists?

Duffryman

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Since when are we collectively responsible for the behaviour of other cyclists?

Hmmm. So does that mean that cyclists shouldn't generalise when giving out about motorists either?


I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name, or cause cyclists to be extra wary of all motorists.


Can you not accept that the behaviour of some cyclists can also do the same thing in reverse?

Chiparus

Duffryman wrote: »

Hmmm. So does that mean that cyclists shouldn't generalise when giving out about motorists either?


I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name, or cause cyclists to be extra wary of all motorists.


Can you not accept that the behaviour of some cyclists can also do the same thing in reverse?

.............and kill or seriously injure cyclists?

AndrewJRenko

Duffryman wrote: »

I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name

Does it really though? We all see oodles of crap, dangerous driving every day - speeding, using the phone, failure to observe and more.

And yet culturally, there is no sense of collective responsibility for this. In fact, the only collective responsibility that we do see goes the opposite direction, with some motorists flashing to warn others to slow down for a speed trap.

CramCycle

Duffryman wrote: »

Hmmm. So does that mean that cyclists shouldn't generalise when giving out about motorists either?


I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name, or cause cyclists to be extra wary of all motorists.


Can you not accept that the behaviour of some cyclists can also do the same thing in reverse?

Interestingly this is what happens in the media on a regular basis if you look at the Journalism thread here. When cyclists are mentioned by the media, solicitors, people in power, they are referred to as a homogeneous group. Even stories about single cyclists typically devolve into one about cyclists as a group. When referring to issues and incidents with motorists, it rarely happens, they are referred to as individuals, the articles refer to the individual, and often the vehicle gets the blame in the article.

RLJing is a prime example of this in normal conversations, sitting at lights, three cars run the lights, most people (I hear), will curse that driver, or that car. A cyclist does the same, it almost always turns to all cyclists do this, all cyclists are always at this, the truth being that is quite far removed from the truth.

Duckjob

Duffryman wrote: »

Hmmm. So does that mean that cyclists shouldn't generalise when giving out about motorists either?


I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name, or cause cyclists to be extra wary of all motorists.


Can you not accept that the behaviour of some cyclists can also do the same thing in reverse?

Thing is though, you've just hit on a major false equivalence that gets pedalled in these debates, which is this:

- when I'm driving down the road and I encounter a cyclist, how that cyclist perceives me as a "motorist" matters not a fiddlers fart to my safety.

Going down the road as a cyclist, if I encounter a motorist who has a negative perception of "cyclists" and that negatively influences their behaviour towards me I can be put in a life-or-death situation in seconds, and this is something that appears to be happening on Irish roads on a daily basis.

Duffryman

Hey, what I mean really is that cyclists shouldn't generalise about motorists, in the same way they don't like it when motorists generalise about them.

You don't have to look too far in any cycling forum before you find sweeping statements like 'motorists don't care', 'motorists don't look', 'motorists are oblivious to us', etc.

I recognise that the behaviour of some motorists can lead to those feelings. That's what I mean by those motorists getting the rest of us a bad name is some people's eyes.

Similarly, the behaviour of some cyclists can cause some other people to see all cyclists in a negative light.

It's really not that different, you know....

AndrewJRenko

Duffryman wrote: »

Hey, what I mean really is that cyclists shouldn't generalise about motorists, in the same way they don't like it when motorists generalise about them.

You don't have to look too far in any cycling forum before you find sweeping statements like 'motorists don't care', 'motorists don't look', 'motorists are oblivious to us', etc.

I recognise that the behaviour of some motorists can lead to those feelings. That's what I mean by those motorists getting the rest of us a bad name is some people's eyes.

Similarly, the behaviour of some cyclists can cause some other people to see all cyclists in a negative light.

It's really not that different, you know....

But it's OK for us to continue to make factual statements, like 'most motorists break speed limits' and 'motorists kill 2 or 3 people each week on the roads'?

magicbastarder

Duffryman wrote: »

Hey, what I mean really is that cyclists shouldn't generalise about motorists, in the same way they don't like it when motorists generalise about them.

You don't have to look too far in any cycling forum before you find sweeping statements like 'motorists don't care', 'motorists don't look', 'motorists are oblivious to us', etc.

while on an academic level, i get what you're saying, i suspect - without having checked back through posts - that what you'll probably find on the forum is people complaining along the lines of 'an asshole in a mitsubishi hobnob cut me off' style complaint, rather than 'motorists in general are assholes' sort of sentiment. which is the sort of sentiment cyclists face.

cf. the inability of any national broadsheet to mention cyclists in an article about cycling without the phrase 'sense of entitlement' being contractually shoehorned into the article.
cf. any conversation i have with a non-cyclist where i mention i cycle, that i get the 'but you have to admit that cyclists...' line to deal with; compared to any conversation where i mention that i drive a car that i don't (and by don't, i mean *never*, as in *never ever*) get the response 'but you have to admit that motorists...' response.

like it or not, the general perception is that cyclists are a homogenous group in a way that motorists are not.

Wishbone Ash

Duffryman wrote: »

Hmmm. So does that mean that cyclists shouldn't generalise when giving out about motorists either?


I'd be first to admit that the behaviour of some motorists can get all motorists a bad name, or cause cyclists to be extra wary of all motorists.


Can you not accept that the behaviour of some cyclists can also do the same thing in reverse?

But I've never heard motorists saying "sometimes as motorists we don't do ourselves any favours".

You have to bear in mind that 95% of us cyclists are motorists also but only a small percentage of motorists are cyclists.

In a previous post you referred to 'ordinary traffic'. What is extra-ordinary about cyclists? They were around long before motorists.

Wishbone Ash

Duckjob wrote: »

...There's a similar piece of sh*te infrastructure I ride in Nth Dublin between Airside and the Airport...

I've seen that mentioned here a few times and it always puzzles me. I cycle it very regularly and think it fine with plenty of room. it was much worse when that was a simple 2 way road.

Duckjob

Duffryman wrote: »

Hey, what I mean really is that cyclists shouldn't generalise about motorists, in the same way they don't like it when motorists generalise about them.

You don't have to look too far in any cycling forum before you find sweeping statements like 'motorists don't care', 'motorists don't look', 'motorists are oblivious to us', etc.

I recognise that the behaviour of some motorists can lead to those feelings. That's what I mean by those motorists getting the rest of us a bad name is some people's eyes.

Similarly, the behaviour of some cyclists can cause some other people to see all cyclists in a negative light.

It's really not that different, you know....

I don't disagree with you on that.

Personally I don't see motorists as the enemy. I know there's still plenty of good conscientious drivers that we go out of their way to pass me safely. It's just that when for example a car is approaching me from behind I never know whether it's one of the good drivers or one of the aggressive monkeys.

The point I was making was that whether "motorists" are generalised against, certainly from a road safety POV is largely irreverent. As a motorist, from the point of view of my safety I have the luxury of not having to give a crap about how I'm perceived. As a cyclist one doesn't have that luxury.

Wishbone Ash

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

... Cycling uphill and with no contra traffic there was a lot of beeping from behind....

Not a near miss as such either but you just reminded me that yesterday, while cycling on a rural road near some drizzle sodden village in Westmeath a car approached from behind with several beeps. It pulled up along side me and the driver shouted 'I want to talk to you'. Here we go I thought, what have I done now.

Driver: Slow down,
Me: Why?
Driver: I want to ask you something.
Me: What?
Driver: Are you in one of them cycling clubs?
Me: Yes (I was in club gear which is quite distinctive).
Driver: I want to ask you a question about them clubs
Me: Yes , go on...
Driver: Pull over.
Me: No, what is it (I wasn't pulling over for my own safety)
Driver: Will you take part in our St Patrick's Day parade?

It was all very innocent and I felt a bit guilty afterwards that I came across as a bit abrupt so apologies to the gentleman in question. I just assumed he was going to have a go at me about cyclist or group cycling. He only wanted me to pull over as he was concerned that he posed a danger driving alongside me on a narrow twisty road. I explained that I wasn't from the area and doubted that I'd get a squadron of McNally Swords CC members down to the midlands for their parade.

rushfan

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It was all very innocent and I felt a bit guilty afterwards that I came across as a bit abrupt so apologies to the gentleman in question. I just assumed he was going to have a go at me about cyclist or group cycling. He only wanted me to pull over as he was concerned that he posed a danger driving alongside me on a narrow twisty road. I explained that I wasn't from the area and doubted that I'd get a squadron of McNally Swords CC members down to the midlands for their parade.

In fairness, I wouldn't blame you one bit. Any driver who's opening line is "slow down " would have to be regarded with a large degree of suspicion.

site_owner

Gardaí are now taking close pass videos posted online seriously...

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1089475683041116161?s=19

AndrewJRenko

site_owner wrote: »

Gardaí are now taking close pass videos posted online seriously...

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1089475683041116161?s=19

a) There is no allegation of any specific offence in that post.
b) There is no data protection issue with posting videos recorded in a public place
c) Car registration numbers are not personal data.
d) I can give multiple examples of allegations presented to Gardai, with quality video coverage, with formal statements that are just ignored - no response, no follow up.


This demonstrates clear bias against cyclists within AGS.

Weepsie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

a) There is no allegation of any specific offence in that post.
b) There is no data protection issue with posting videos recorded in a public place
c) Car registration numbers are not personal data.
d) I can give multiple examples of allegations presented to Gardai, with quality video coverage, with formal statements that are just ignored - no response, no follow up.


This demonstrates clear bias against cyclists within AGS.

You can't argue (b) and then argue that Dublin bus should be giving you video via GDPR requests as people keep doing. Taxi drivers are easily identifiable by their taxi plate however.


With that though, if the Gardaí actually cared, they'd have a policy of system in which they could facilitate uploading of footage, and then review it.

AndrewJRenko

Weepsie wrote: »

You can't argue (b) and then argue that Dublin bus should be giving you video via GDPR requests as people keep doing. Taxi drivers are easily identifiable by their taxi plate however.


With that though, if the Gardaí actually cared, they'd have a policy of system in which they could facilitate uploading of footage, and then review it.

The Garda issue here isn't about recording (the Dublin Bus scenario). It is about posting them in public.



Somebody in the Garda Press Office seems to have taken it into their head that they get to police social media. That is way beyond the powers of the Gardai - acting ultra vires.


If they have data protection concerns about these clips, they get to report it to the host (same as any of us can do) or report it to the Data Protection Commissioner (same as any of us can do).

magicbastarder

https://twitter.com/JSWeetabix/status/1089548600076632064

what are my chances of getting a response?