14,500 traffic convictions to be quashed over Garda error

smelly sock

Donal55 wrote: »

In fairness, he said he would if he was asked.
A tenner says he wont be asked.

Yes but I mean resign. Any other country he would go.

sdanseo

smelly sock wrote: »

But hang on. I think from the like of mccabe and now this that it shows its not just one or two guards that are corrupt. The scary thing is how many there seem to be.

Strange how it comes out after their pay rise.

If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.

smelly sock

I really hope we never have any kind of terrorist incident like paris or London here with this shower in charge of things.

Donal55

smelly sock wrote: »

Yes but I mean resign. Any other country he would go.

We dont resign on principle over here. We retire on fat pensions.

smelly sock

sdanseo wrote: »

If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.

No reason why the head of the guards actually needs to be a guard. Could be a civilian.

SEPT 23 1989

sdanseo wrote: »

If there are rank and file who are corrupt it's because they are allowed to be.

Prune everyone from Chief Super up (hell, just pay them off and allow them to retire) and replace with ex-staff from UK forces, other emergency services or promote where suitably scrupulous records exist. That's only around 50 positions.

But they know where the bodies are buried nasty little secrets of the establishment could be leaked if a move was made on them

Very depressing vista

ED E

Donal55 wrote: »

In fairness, he said he would if he was asked.
A tenner says he wont be asked.

Did he?

Commissioner asks for him to be moved from his position, he will accept that.

Shoved over to a different desk, not given the boot and prosecuted for being criminally negligent.

Gunmonkey

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

This is Ireland add a few zeros onto those figures Garda Reynolds

Nah, this is Ireland. The €10,000 figure will probably be what the 14,500 people have to split among themselves.

The Tribunal setup to investigate this will be where the 0's get added to the end.

RustyNut

smelly sock

We always hear the line trotted out that it's a minority giving everyone a bad name. Is this the same minority who stitched up mccabe? The same minority caught on camera in Waterford I think beating a few lads. The same minority who broke into a flat on James Street and beat a fella because he said something about a colleague. The same minority who tried to stitch up ian Bailey? The same minority who tried to stitch up Claire daly?


Rotten from the top to the bottom.

armchaircoach

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

I don't know why this is only hitting the mainstream news today. this exact issue was brought up on newstalk breakfast a couple of weeks ago, and by whom you might ask? well by the company that supplies the gardai with the single use mouthpieces for each breath test. They were wondering why the number of tests recorded was far in excess of the number of mouthpieces ordered.

that would be a far more accurate method of measuring tests administered, but you know accountability isn't exactly in vogue with the powers that be in this state.

SEPT 23 1989

Not a mention on the headlines on the nine o clock news or primetime

Surprise surprise

exaisle

Does anybody think that this came to light on the one day when it was guaranteed not to make the front page?

Why the person responsible hasn't fallen on their sword is a mystery to me.

Grow a pair, Mr Assistant Commissioner!

ChikiChiki

Does anyone even bother auditing these cowboys?

Donal55

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Not a mention on the headlines on the nine o clock news or primetime

Surprise surprise

The same crowd that are looking for 100% increase in the licence fee.
Public service broadcasting??

Boaty

1 million breath tests over 5 years is still a massive amount.
Why do we want Gardai to be bogged down in paperwork when there's not even enough of them to effectively patrol the streets.
I'm only concerned with the amount that are caught not the amount that are tested.

Dionysius2

There's something very odd about the number of mobile phone prosecutions whilst driving too. Hard to find them in the courts yet the conviction numbers are way up there. Go figure.

Icemancometh

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

If it was just error from guessing, shouldn't it be much lower. For every guard guessing 2 or 3 over shouldn't one guess 2 or 3 under? If its just errors in estimation after all

Heisenberg1

It would make you laugh that they were threatening strike for increased pay turns out they were doing 50% less work and got the pay increase.

Going Forward

sdanseo wrote: »

The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

You won't get too many ordinary motorists opening their mouth about anything at a checkpoint for obvious reasons. They have far too much respect.

It'll be in the back of their minds though.

You'll only get the sort that has built up a certain rapport with gardai, the sort that has 60 previous convictions mouthing off at a checkpoint or anywhere else.

please helpThank YOU

My Grandmother she was 98 when she passed away. and she all ways told me never trust an Garda Siochana . I said Grandma but why your Father was Garda.? your three brothers where Garda ? she made me think? did she know something at the time? now as time has past we have Garda Scandals one after another.

Noddyholder

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

My Grandmother she was 98 when she passed away. and she all ways told me never trust an Garda Siochana . I said Grandma but why your Father was Garda.? your three brothers where Garda ? she made me think? did she know something at the time? now as time has past we have Garda Scandals one after another.

My grandfather said never trust your grandmother :P

please helpThank YOU

Noddyholder wrote: »

My grandfather said never trust your grandmother :P

ahahaha very funny ahahah but what I am a :)saying is true

FishOnABike

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Holy sh*t.

I got a court summons a few years ago after being stopped by a garda for speeding. I never received the notice in the post. I had followed up with the garda station but they said it would follow in a month or so.

On the day in court I was absolutely bricking it, and the judge really didn't want to believe that I'd never received the notice. He asked me "has any other post gone missing?" and I thought to myself "well how the hell would I know?" but obviously just said not that I was aware of.

The garda present on the day said he believed me and that's the only reason it ended up being struck out.

Thank fcuk I didn't get someone like that guy above

As the saying goes - power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

While the independence of the judiciary is important I think it has gone too far. Unfortunately some judges have an arrogant belief in their own infallibility, propped up by an almost complete lack of accountability for their conduct or misconduct.

diomed

Makes you wonder about the accuracy of Garda overtime hours if they are not very good at recording stuff.

Mr.Micro

When I was growing up, some of the biggest trouble makers in the community got to join An Garda. In hindsight they clearly had all the right credentials, rough, thuggish, disrespectful, bordering on criminal. They are probably at the top of the Garda hierarchy by now. That's the standard.

suicide_circus

They're some lads for exaggerated figures. Their valuations for the "street value" of drug hauls have always been ridiculous.

Noddyholder

And in relation to one period, it was discovered that the figures for roadside breath tests alleged to have been carried out was bigger than the total number of mouthpieces available to the force at that time.

As a result of the investigation, gardai said, the system used to record the roadside tests had now been tightened up and personnel had been warned to be more careful in putting the figures together.

That's comical reading.

From Irish Independent

suicide_circus

^^^^ trying to make out it thousands upon thousands of clerical errors rather than systematic and deliberate massaging of the numbers. They really have no respect for the intelligence of the public.

Cee-Jay-Cee

skankkuvhima wrote: »

I wonder if this judge feels a bit stupid now

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/nothing-as-appalling-as-a-liar-driver-committed-perjury-judge-1.2928295

That story has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The story being reported by the OP is where someone was prosecuted and did not receive a FCPS fine in the post before hand, ie the case went straight to court without the person being given an opportunity to pay a fine.

In the story you linked to, an FCPS fine was issued but the defendant claimed they never received it and was subsequently prosecuted.

Do you feel a bit stupid now?

Noddyholder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That story has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The story being reported by the OP is where someone was prosecuted and did not receive a FCPS fine in the post before hand, ie the case went straight to court.

In the story you linked to, an FCPS fine was issued but the defendant claimed they never received it and was subsequently prosecuted.

Do you feel a bit stupid now?

Mr Sutton was one of two motorists Judge Durcan banned from driving for one year after not accepting evidence they did not receive the fixed charge penalty notice in the post.

The judge didn't accept that the defendant did not receive it, yet there were over 14,700 people convicted in the courts were prosecuted without a fixed-charge notice first being issued.

I don't understand the point your making, You believe the judge & you don't believe the defendant ?

Cee-Jay-Cee

Noddyholder wrote: »

Mr Sutton was one of two motorists Judge Durcan banned from driving for one year after not accepting evidence they did not receive the fixed charge penalty notice in the post.

The judge didn't accept that the defendant did not receive it, yet there were over 14,700 people convicted in the courts were prosecuted without a fixed-charge notice first being issued.

I don't understand the point your making, You believe the judge & you don't believe the defendant ?

The two stories are completely different and not linked.

In the OP story, 14700 people were summonsed to court without being given a chance to pay a fine first, ie there was no fine issued and the case proceeded straight to court where they were fined/convicted.

In the other case a FCPS fine was issued, that is not being disputed as there will be a record of it having been issued. In the case of the 14700, no fine was ever issued. The judge didn't believe that the person didn't receive the fine saying it was lost in the post.

How is that so difficult to understand?

I suspect many people who tried the 'I never got the FCPS fine' defence line will think they are one of the 14700 people, theyre not and will not be included in any reversal of the fines or penalty points.

Noddyholder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The two stories are completely different and not linked.

In the OP story, 14700 people were summonsed to court without being given a chance to pay a fine first, ie there was no fine issued and the case proceeded straight to court where they were fined/convicted.

In the other case a FCPS fine was issued, that is not being disputed as there will be a record of it having been issued. In the case of the 14700, no fine was ever issued. The judge didn't believe that the person didn't receive the fine saying it was lost in the post.

How is that so difficult to understand?

I suspect many people who tried the 'I never got the FCPS fine' defence line will think they are one of the 14700 people, theyre not and will not be included in any reversal of the fines or penalty points.

Well maybe if you explained it like that in your first post before you edit it,

Folks might know were your coming from.

Its a right mess the Garda have gotten themselves in again don't you think ?

sdanseo

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

Haha, nice bit of a sneak with the "2 or 3%" stat there. They almost doubled the number so the "error" across the board was over 90%, not 2 or 3%.

Theboinkmaster

Have to say I have absolutely ZERO respect for the traffic core Gards in this country. Am lucky enough to only ever encounter the traffic core and think they're a bunch of absolute PIGS. Zero interest in saving lives and getting people to drive correctly - just shooting fish in a barrel collecting money.

I wouldn't tarnish the other Gardaí as never had any dealing with them, they could all be really hard working and honest people. Am in the UK a good bit and comparing their police force to ours, it's like chalk and cheese - have the utmost respect for the UK police and their professionalism.

Releasing this story on Thursday, being a hectic news day with McGuinness funeral and London attack really sums them up them up as an organisation - thinking they'd get minimal media coverage :rolleyes:

How the fvck is Noreen O'Sullivan still in her job

osarusan

Bossman guardface: Ok lads, ye 3 were on drink-driving checkpoints last night, and I need to get some numbers from ye. Fergal?

Fergal: 22 boss.

Bossman guardface: Grand. Joe?

Joe: 19 boss. Slow night.

Bossman guardface: 19. Tom?

Tom: 37,000 boss.

Bossman guardface: Great shtuff lads.

RustyNut

Going Forward wrote: »

You won't get too many ordinary motorists opening their mouth about anything at a checkpoint for obvious reasons. They have far too much respect.

It's a pity the Guards don't show the public the same respect.

Noddyholder

On RTE radio 1 now.

Your Face

Sound !

Noddyholder

Your Face wrote: »

Sound !

Yes, They don't do subtitles on the radio.:D

Donal55

No word from any of the Garda Unions, who were tripping each other up in the race to tell us how great they were, when lookin for their payrises.

Your Face

Noddyholder wrote: »

Yes, They don't do subtitles on the radio.:D

Release the bantz.

Donal55

Future knock on effects being discussed on SOR.

Gunmonkey

Donal55 wrote: »

No word from any of the Garda Unions, who were tripping each other up in the race to tell us how great they were, when lookin for their payrises.

Too busy trying to locate equal positions within the service for those at the head of this to slide into, to make it look like they are taking any responsibility/having any negative repercussions.

That or the whole service is in crisis mode trying to pin it all on Morris McCabe....

ebbsy

Is that stupid cow still in a job ?

Mint Sauce

Just a couple of quick thoughts, will all these court decisions be definitely over turned, and all those convicted, end up with the original points and fines they would have received, had they paid the original notice.

Two, what about their insurance, if they have been banned, or received 5 plus points for a court appearance, will the insurance companies quote them for the original two points, and if they have not held licence due to an unfair banning, will they get their original no claim period back, or will they be refunded the extra they had to pay.

Can see a few compo cases here, both in terms of unjust insurance charges, or for those who lost jobs due to joy being able to drive.

Mr.Micro

If the Garda are doing this with the breathalyser tests, what are they doing with all the other matters entrusted to them. The mind boggles. The State needs to start over.

Dionysius2

suicide_circus wrote: »

They're some lads for exaggerated figures. Their valuations for the "street value" of drug hauls have always been ridiculous.

And unashamedly assisted by the media in this utterly farcical exercise. Judges who accept that kind of well coloured evidence are being duped in our courts every day.

BattleCorp

What baffles me (and that's easy because I'm thick) is that no solicitor noticed this problem when they were defending their clients. You'd imagine that it would be easy enough to spot that the Gardaí were doing things incorrectly.

This went on for years and nobody in the legal profession noticed? :eek:

Cee-Jay-Cee

Noddyholder wrote: »

Well maybe if you explained it like that in your first post before you edit it,

Folks might know were your coming from.

Its a right mess the Garda have gotten themselves in again don't you think ?

I agree, its a complete mess but not suprising.