Is Verbal permission for lands enough?

blackpearl

By law the only land you can shoot is the land on the licence ,verbal permission will not be accepted by the law ,you are suppose to get the permission of the landowner in writing and inform the law so it can be added to your licence,this is all new ,god be with the day verbal premmision was good enough ,you best bet would be to apply to the local gun clubs good luck with that one .


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Split off from original thread - Here.

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Kramer

blackpearl wrote: »

By law the only land you can shoot is the land on the licence ,verbal permission will not be accepted by the law ,you are suppose to get the permission of the landowner in writing and inform the law so it can be added to your licence,this is all new ,god be with the day verbal premmision was good enough ,you best bet would be to apply to the local gun clubs good luck with that one .

Could not be more wrong. Absolute rubbish, in every regard.
Super responsible for this nonsense?

BattleCorp

blackpearl wrote: »

By law the only land you can shoot is the land on the licence ,verbal permission will not be accepted by the law ,you are suppose to get the permission of the landowner in writing and inform the law so it can be added to your licence,this is all new ,god be with the day verbal premmision was good enough ,you best bet would be to apply to the local gun clubs good luck with that one .

^^^^^^^^^^

Em, that's not the case. There's no 'land' on your licence. There's no adding land to your licence. Yes, you need two permissions when applying for the licence, but that's all. You aren't restricted to shooting only on those two permissions.

Back to the OP's question, your best bet is to go knocking on doors and ask farmers for permission to shoot on their lands. Start with the farmers beside where you have permission as they will know the farmers who gave you permission and that might make you more trustworthy.

Cass

blackpearl wrote: »

By law the only land you can shoot is the land on the licence ,verbal permission will not be accepted by the law ,you are suppose to get the permission of the landowner in writing and inform the law so it can be added to your licence,.....................

No. I'm not sure who told you this, but your leg must bee well and truly pulled.

The written land permission you get for your license application do indeed allow you to shoot on those permissions however you are not limited to them alone.

If you have 20 permission you don't need all 20 to get the license. Also if you gain permissions after the application process then you may freely and legally shoot them too. Whether you use them come renewal time or when applying for another firearm is completely up to you.

Your permissions may very well be kept on file in Garda HQ, or on PULSE, but they are not on your license and not even on the grant letter. The only license that restricts you to certain lands is the limited firearm certificate.

lcasey90

Thanks for reply yea that's the plan to go knocking on doors up have my country allliance insurance any thoughts on how open farmers will be too some1 shooting on land with insurance never had to do it before so don't now how likely it will be

BattleCorp

If people don't know you, then your main aim is to name drop as often as possible. If 'Paddy' down the road has given you permissions, then farmers might be more inclined to trust you once you tell them that Paddy is happy for you to shoot his lands. Be prepared though, many people will only let people they know shoot on their lands.

blackpearl

Kramer wrote: »

Could not be more wrong. Absolute rubbish, in every regard.
Super responsible for this nonsense?

Verbal permission will not be accepted you must have it in writing check it .

Cass

You are talking about written permission to present to An Gardaí? If so then yes, if you want to present it to An Gardaí for an application, etc. then it must be written.

However this same standard does NOT apply to all your shooting. Over half of my permissions are verbal and i have shot them for years. I use the ones i have written permission for to apply for licenses.

BattleCorp

blackpearl wrote: »

Verbal permission will not be accepted you must have it in writing check it .

I don't need to check anything. What Cass is saying in the post above is 100% correct.

Verbal permissions won't be accepted when applying for a firearms licence. You need written permissions for that.

But once your licence is granted, you can shoot on any land that you have verbal permission to shoot on.

blackpearl

Cass wrote: »

No. I'm not sure who told you this, but your leg must bee well and truly pulled.

The written land permission you get for your license application do indeed allow you to shoot on those permissions however you are not limited to them alone.

If you have 20 permission you don't need all 20 to get the license. Also if you gain permissions after the application process then you may freely and legally shoot them too. Whether you use them come renewal time or when applying for another firearm is completely up to you.

Your permissions may very well be kept on file in Garda HQ, or on PULSE, but they are not on your license and not even on the grant letter. The only license that restricts you to certain lands is the limited firearm certificate.

If you are hunting on land you have permission on and have to cross a field to get to the next premision and that field dose not belong to your farmer and Garda are passing and pull you over if you don't have the owner of that feilds permission in writing they can lift your gun. They will not except verbal permission this is the way it is now or else the local gard in my area is pulling my leg if this is false then my mistake.

Cass

blackpearl wrote: »

If you are hunting on land you have permission on and have to cross a field to get to the next premision and that field dose not belong to your farmer and Garda are passing and pull you over if you don't have the owner of that feilds permission in writing they can lift your gun.

Lad you're talking about trespass now.

Being on anyone's land without verbal or written permission is trespass.

They will not except verbal permission this is the way it is now or else the local gard in my area is pulling my leg if this is false then my mistake.

/sigh

I can only say this one more time then i'm giving up as you're not listening.

For applications/license, etc to be presented with an application you need written permission. For any other shooting verbal permission is enough. The Garda is not pulling your leg as much as he/she is clueless. It's not the first time a member of An Garda got it wrong and sure as sh*t won't be the last time.

One last thing for you.

If i'm on my permission and An Garda stops me and asks where my permission is, i simple tell him the name of the land owner. The Garda can then ring/contact the land owner to confirm. If i'm lying then the Garda still cannot do anything unless the land owner wants to prosecute for trespass. If i'm telling the truth then what can the Garda do?

Seriously, just think about it. What can the Garda do? Charge me with what? Being on land WITH permission just not in writing. If that farce got so far as to get to court then what would the judge say? This man (me) is being prosecuted for being on land he had permission to be on?

I'd expect him not just to throw the book at the Garda but to beat some sense into him/her with it.

As for seizing your guns for being on land you have permission for, albeit with only verbal authorisation from the land owner. Well i'll put it this way to keep it civil. Good luck with that.

BattleCorp

blackpearl wrote: »

If you are hunting on land you have permission on and have to cross a field to get to the next premision and that field dose not belong to your farmer and Garda are passing and pull you over if you don't have the owner of that feilds permission in writing they can lift your gun. They will not except verbal permission this is the way it is now or else the local gard in my area is pulling my leg if this is false then my mistake.

:rolleyes:

And following on from that logic, if I'm walking along the road with my firearm (cased/bagged/slung over my shoulder) on my way to do some shooting, who is the landowner in that case that I should get written permission from? Is it the Council, the Government, who? The Gardaí would be very busy indeed 'lifting' guns.

What you are saying is incorrect.

Whoever told you this is clearly mistaken.

barnaman

BattleCorp wrote: »

:rolleyes:

And following on from that logic, if I'm walking along the road with my firearm (cased/bagged/slung over my shoulder) on my way to do some shooting, who is the landowner in that case that I should get written permission from? Is it the Council, the Government, who? The Gardaí would be very busy indeed 'lifting' guns.

What you are saying is incorrect.

Whoever told you this is clearly mistaken.

You are walking along a public road so you are exercising your public right of way

barnaman

Cass wrote: »

Lad you're talking about trespass now.

Being on anyone's land without verbal or written permission is trespass.


/sigh

I can only say this one more time then i'm giving up as you're not listening.

For applications/license, etc to be presented with an application you need written permission. For any other shooting verbal permission is enough. The Garda is not pulling your leg as much as he/she is clueless. It's not the first time a member of An Garda got it wrong and sure as sh*t won't be the last time.

One last thing for you.

If i'm on my permission and An Garda stops me and asks where my permission is, i simple tell him the name of the land owner. The Garda can then ring/contact the land owner to confirm. If i'm lying then the Garda still cannot do anything unless the land owner wants to prosecute for trespass. If i'm telling the truth then what can the Garda do?

Seriously, just think about it. What can the Garda do? Charge me with what? Being on land WITH permission just not in writing. If that farce got so far as to get to court then what would the judge say? This man (me) is being prosecuted for being on land he had permission to be on?

I'd expect him not just to throw the book at the Garda but to beat some sense into him/her with it.

As for seizing your guns for being on land you have permission for, albeit with only verbal authorisation from the land owner. Well i'll put it this way to keep it civil. Good luck with that.

Not sure the Guards are clueless you have a licence to own a firearm for the purpose of hunting and then seperately you have a licence to hunt wildlife under the Wildlife Act 1976 and you could read that Act as stating that the licence is limited to the lands that you state on your firearms licence application form.

also the 1976 Act says s28.—(1) A person shall not with firearms hunt or kill on any land an exempted wild mammal or a protected wild bird of a species specified in an order under section 24 of this Act which is for the time being in force unless (a) the exempted wild mammal or the protected wild bird is hunted or killed pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted under this Act, or deemed to have been granted under section 29 of this Act, and (b) the person is in relation to the land a qualified person for the purposes of this section.


(2) A person shall in relation to land be qualified for the purposes of this section if he is at least sixteen years of age and—(a) is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or(b) is the guest, invitee, servant or agent, or possesses the written authority of a person who is entitled to sporting rights over the land,

So to answer your point Cass "If i'm lying then the Garda still cannot do anything unless the land owner wants to prosecute for trespass." The guard can prosecute you for an offence under the Wildlife Act.

Cass

barnaman wrote: »

Not sure the Guards are clueless.........

Don't bastardise what i said. I did not say the Gardaí (Guards) are clueless. I said this Garda is clueless. Singular.

you have a licence to own a firearm for the purpose of hunting and then seperately you have a licence to hunt wildlife under the Wildlife Act 1976 and you could read that Act as stating that the licence is limited to the lands that you state on your firearms licence application form.

The Act, or section, in no way states or implies that you are limited to the lands on your license. Now as i said above your license does not state your land permissions and i'll bet it's not even on PULSE. They are kept on file on the FCA1s we submit for every application and renewal.

also the 1976 Act says s28.—(1) A person shall not with firearms hunt or kill on any land an exempted wild mammal or a protected wild bird of a species specified in an order under section 24 of this Act which is for the time being in force unless (a) the exempted wild mammal or the protected wild bird is hunted or killed pursuant to and in accordance with a licence granted under this Act, or deemed to have been granted under section 29 of this Act, and (b) the person is in relation to the land a qualified person for the purposes of this section.

• Section 24 is about the season for certain game (protected wild animals/birds)
• Section 29 relates to how the license to hunt is tied into your firearms license.

As for section 28 itself. Well you quoted:

(2) A person shall in relation to land be qualified for the purposes of this section if he is at least sixteen years of age and—(a) is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or(b) is the guest, invitee, servant or agent, or possesses the written authority of a person who is entitled to sporting rights over the land,

So to answer your point Cass "If i'm lying then the Garda still cannot do anything unless the land owner wants to prosecute for trespass." The guard can prosecute you for an offence under the Wildlife Act.

You highlighted the bit above but you missed not only the most important little word before your highlighted bit, but basically everything before it.

I've highlighted it in RED above.

is entitled to sporting rights over the land, or (b) is the guest, invitee, servant or agent

So the bit you highlighted about being in possession of written permission is only one of 5 "statuses" for being on the land.

Much like the competency courses. Every Garda from Kerry to Donegal will tell you, you need a competency course to apply for a firearm. You don't. A competency course is only one of four ways to show competence.

barnaman

Sorry Cass that garda is clueless. The point I was addressing was that a Guard could do something in the situation where you said he was powerless. The application for a non resident firearms licence is much more explicit on hunting and areas in which the firearms licence is granted than that for a resident firearms licence. The 1976 Act is identical for a resident and non resident in its application. As you can see from the form below it much more clearly set outs that a firearms licence for hunting and a hunting licence is granted in respect of the land stated on the form; the FCA1 form is not so explicit but even it states "I have received a nomination in writing from the land occupier". Maybe that is why the Garda is looking for written permision from Blackpearl.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Non%20Resident%20Form%20Amended%20-%2016.1.13.pdf

Captainaxiom

barnaman wrote: »

Sorry Cass that garda is clueless. The point I was addressing was that a Guard could do something in the situation where you said he was powerless. The application for a non resident firearms licence is much more explicit on hunting and areas in which the firearms licence is granted than that for a resident firearms licence. The 1976 Act is identical for a resident and non resident in its application. As you can see from the form below it much more clearly set outs that a firearms licence for hunting and a hunting licence is granted in respect of the land stated on the form; the FCA1 form is not so explicit but even it states "I have received a nomination in writing from the land occupier". Maybe that is why the Garda is looking for written permision from Blackpearl.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Non%20Resident%20Form%20Amended%20-%2016.1.13.pdf

Or maybe black peral was just complete wrong

blackpearl

Only going on what i was told by the garda,another hunting man who was at one of garda meetings held with the gun clubs about poaching said to me last night that the gard who was holding the meeting said that written permission was all he would except in the case of stopping someone hunting on land that verbal permission was not good enough,so to those of you who rared up on me i was saying what i was told .

BattleCorp

blackpearl wrote: »

Only going on what i was told by the garda,another hunting man who was at one of garda meetings held with the gun clubs about poaching said to me last night that the gard who was holding the meeting said that written permission was all he would except in the case of stopping someone hunting on land that verbal permission was not good enough,so to those of you who rared up on me i was saying what i was told .

I'm not calling you a liar, I'm not doubting that you were told that by a member of the Gardaí. I've been told woeful incorrect sh1te by members of the Gardaí in the past. But if the Garda did tell you that, then the Garda is wrong and either interpreting the law incorrectly or making up the law (which they aren't allowed to do).

Cass

barnaman wrote: »

Sorry Cass that garda is clueless. The point I was addressing was that a Guard could do something in the situation where you said he was powerless.

I never said he would be powerless i said what could he arrest/charge me with. Not trespassing, with permission?

The application for a non resident firearms licence is much more explicit on hunting and areas in which the firearms licence is granted than that for a resident firearms licence.

A non resident firearms application is about as relevant as the point made above about trespassing on someone else's land. It has nothing to do with the thread or the topic being discussed and even less with what Blackpearl was told.

The 1976 Act is identical for a resident and non resident in its application.

Of course the Act is the same. There is no separate ACt or set of laws for people from outside the state. Once here they must obey ALL laws of the land.

As you can see from the form below it much more clearly set outs that a firearms licence for hunting and a hunting licence is granted in respect of the land stated on the form;

That is what i've being saying from the start. You apply for the firearms license with lands you have written permission on. The point you seem to be missing is it does not limit you to those lands hence the terms guest, invitee, owner, qualified person, etc, etc, etc. and that it says you apply to the Superintendent of the district in which you intend to shoot, on the form.

My deer license renewal only has enough room for two permissions. I have over 17. Every few years i change them so as to inform the NPWS, get the permissions on record, etc. However last year i got a call from the NPWS saying that as they were behind in the applications if i wanted my license by the first i should use existing permissions that i supplied in writing. She told me to work away on the new permissions, but they would not be recorded this year and to submit them next year if i wanted them on record.

the FCA1 form is not so explicit but even it states "I have received a nomination in writing from the land occupier". Maybe that is why the Garda is looking for written permision from Blackpearl.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Non%20Resident%20Form%20Amended%20-%2016.1.13.pdf

You are referring to section 5.2 of the FCA1 which is for a Limited Certificate ONLY. This license is for a shotgun ONLY and on lands nominated/declared on the FCA1. This is not a full license and not the subject of the thread.

Now if Blackpearl is referring to a limited cert then he should say so and it'll end this debate, but if he is referring to a full license or a license for a rifle then section 5.2 is moot.

Cass

blackpearl wrote: »

.............so to those of you who rared up on me i was saying what i was told .

The reason for the answers you're getting is you started with your opening post which stated the OP was wrong and when you explained it was from a Garda its clear you took the Garda's word as Gospel and have essentially defended that position from everyone else who has tried to tell you the Garda is wrong.

A small tip/piece of advice lad that will help you no end. Don't take everything you're told from a person in uniform (or anyone really) as Gospel. My Grandfather's saying is very apt, In God we trust, everyone else we check out.

Listen to what you are told but question it and check it out. I've been told or have heard others told the following (few examples):

• Rifle scopes are illegal
• Rifle scopes need a license
• You cannot license a Sako TRG, its a sniper rifle
• Semi auto rifles are illegal
• You cannot substitute a substituted license
• You cannot have two people licensed on the same firearm
• "Silencers" are illegal, only the army can have them

These are only a taste of the nonsense i've heard over the years and if i believed it all i'd be sitting here with my single barrel shotgun, dreaming of a .22lr while everyone else gets on with their shooting.

lcasey90

I filled out the form and put down land on it so am I limited to that land or can i shoot other land after iv got verbal permission from farmer getting confused now ha

lcasey90

I filled out the form and put down land on it so am I limited to that land or can i shoot other land after iv got verbal permission from farmer getting confused now ha

blackpearl

Cass wrote: »

The reason for the answers you're getting is you started with your opening post which stated the OP was wrong and when you explained it was from a Garda its clear you took the Garda's word as Gospel and have essentially defended that position from everyone else who has tried to tell you the Garda is wrong.

A small tip/piece of advice lad that will help you no end. Don't take everything you're told from a person in uniform (or anyone really) as Gospel. My Grandfather's saying is very apt, In God we trust, everyone else we check out.

Listen to what you are told but question it and check it out. I've been told or have heard others told the following (few examples):

• Rifle scopes are illegal
• Rifle scopes need a license
• You cannot license a Sako TRG, its a sniper rifle
• Semi auto rifles are illegal
• You cannot substitute a substituted license
• You cannot have two people licensed on the same firearm
• "Silencers" are illegal, only the army can have them

These are only a taste of the nonsense i've heard over the years and if i believed it all i'd be sitting here with my single barrel shotgun, dreaming of a .22lr while everyone else gets on with their shooting.

Thanks for that it feels good to be called lad in my mid 50s will take it on board.

RossiFan08

lcasey90 wrote: »

I filled out the form and put down land on it so am I limited to that land or can i shoot other land after iv got verbal permission from farmer getting confused now ha

You can shoot other land after you have got verbal permission from farmer.

Captainaxiom

blackpearl wrote: »

Thanks for that it feels good to be called lad in my mid 50s will take it on board.

Lad is a South East/midlands expression to describe someone. Like the dub version bud.

You may grow a thicker skin

Cass

blackpearl wrote: »

Thanks for that it feels good to be called lad in my mid 50s will take it on board.

Lad, bud, son, kid. I use these on a regular basis.

I don't see personal details or photos of the users so you could be 16 or 116. Either way it's a friendly term. No offence is intended.

Secondly if all you take from what i said is my use of the word "lad" well, there are other problems. I hope you have taken the rest on board, and with all due respect you have a thick skin, i've seen your posts on other threads, so take it as it's meant. Advice, not chastisement.

blackpearl

Cass wrote: »

Lad, bud, son, kid. I use these on a regular basis.

I don't see personal details or photos of the users so you could be 16 or 116. Either way it's a friendly term. No offence is intended.

Secondly if all you take from what i said is my use of the word "lad" well, there are other problems. I hope you have taken the rest on board, and with all due respect you have a thick skin, i've seen your posts on other threads, so take it as it's meant. Advice, not chastisement.

No offence taken ,as for thick skin i will continue to stand up for what i belive is right any harm in that, kept a few threads going that would have ended after a couple of posts.

blackpearl

Captainaxiom wrote: »

Lad is a South East/midlands expression to describe someone. Like the dub version bud.

You may grow a thicker skin

I have a thick skin according to some people on here;)

123shooter

But for your own well being would it not be wise to get any land you have permission to shoot/be on, to have the permission from the land owner/sporting rights owner in writing?

Anybody who would refuse to give you that permission in writing, I think I would avoid.

If the sh*t hits the fan it would be common sense to have yourself covered.

Also insurance. Would your insurance cover you if you didn't have permission in writing?

If it was verbal and something happened and then you found out that verbal permission you thought you had was not valid for any reason. Would you not be trespassing with a firearm or poaching? Would your insurance then cover you?

Cass

123shooter wrote: »

But for your own well being would it not be wise to get any land you have permission to shoot/be on, to have the permission from the land owner/sporting rights owner in writing?

Absolutely. However some land owners simply won't give it in writing. So you can either refuse to use the land or just accept the verbal permission.

Anybody who would refuse to give you that permission in writing, I think I would avoid.

Why?

If the sh*t hits the fan it would be common sense to have yourself covered.

My insurance does that.

Also insurance. Would your insurance cover you if you didn't have permission in writing?

Not sure TBH.

If it was verbal and something happened and then you found out that verbal permission you thought you had was not valid for any reason. Would you not be trespassing with a firearm or poaching?

What scenario are you thinking off?.

If you have insurance the land owner is under no legal responsibility. If you don't have insurance, the land owner allows you on his land and something happened (accident) then yes, he may very well deny giving you permission.

Would your insurance then cover you?

Again if you had it and he denied giving you permission, i don't know. If you have no insurance then it's a moot point.

All the above is really just about CYA which is understandable, but not germane to the topic of the thread regarding needing written permission only for applications while written or verbal is sufficient for hunting those lands.