Public / Private Infrastructure and Charging Etiquette

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

You and the like, will of course be screwed once a pricing regime comes in . while I am totally against a driving regime at this time in EV development. Its freeloaders like you and others that will ultimately ruin the whole process for the majority

I was in a nissan dealer recently, where the sale manger observed that " he sees all the locals , pooping in for the free electricity once a week, and then they come in and drink the free coffee "

sad. how humans behaviour consistently " rises to the surface "

The infrastructure will only grow out of necessity, we cannot confine EV ownership to those who live in places with a dedicated off street parking spot fully owned by the car owner.

People utilising the current infrastructure are driving the requirement for more infrastructure, the so called freeloaders are more likely to trigger investment in the infrastructure than people who 100% charge at home, as demand will trigger investment.

I find it easy to imagine a world where people have to pay for the energy to propel their vehicle.

We need a sensible charging regime, with a fair incidental fee for the freeloaders who don't support the national infrastructure, and a healthy membership level for those who cannot install home charging, set at a level where it's not excessive compared to home use.

The public infrastructure will grow from the regular monthly user, not the people who use it once or twice a year.

Calahonda52

ZJ: thanks

I too forget when using public, the screen is normally blinded by the sun or rain...

I have a full blown meter with three sub meters in it and I can track it using this as I have a CT on the cable to the EVSE sub distribution board, I just have to remember.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

The infrastructure will only grow out of necessity, we cannot confine EV ownership to those who live in places with a dedicated off street parking spot fully owned by the car owner.

People utilising the current infrastructure are driving the requirement for more infrastructure, the so called freeloaders are more likely to trigger investment in the infrastructure than people who 100% charge at home, as demand will trigger investment.

I find it easy to imagine a world where people have to pay for the energy to propel their vehicle.

We need a sensible charging regime, with a fair incidental fee for the freeloaders who don't support the national infrastructure, and a healthy membership level for those who cannot install home charging, set at a level where it's not excessive compared to home use.

The public infrastructure will grow from the regular monthly user, not the people who use it once or twice a year.

Your assumptions are based on a degree of " certainly " that public charging will grow. This is actually counter to current EU thinking , which says that domestic charging will grow and take the pressure from public charging , DTTAS paper on alternative fuels, itself attempts to say that the current charging network can support 20,000 EVs !!!, which gives you an idea of what officialdom is thinking !!


The fact is the EV " revolution " is not possible using public FCPS. No matter what battery technology will be deployed, it is going to take a considerably greater amount of to recharge batteries then it will ever do so to put the equivalent calorific energy in via petrol or diesel pumps

Therefor the idea that we are going to see vast arrays of charging points to support 200,50 or 100K of EV vehicles is just pie in the sky.


At the end of the day , Public FCP usage is going to be expensive , the installation is costly , and the pricing will have to deter " casual " users , i.e. those users that dont really need the FCP network.


what I was addressing was the fact that its clear ( and its ecars contention also ) , that there are a considerable number of people that could charge at home , but instead choose to say €1 and clog up FCPs instead.

That situation is not sustainable

slave1

DrPhilG wrote: »

That's a really poor attitude.

you are happy to be rude and obnoxious to all others on a regular basis?

you want to penny-pinch?

Very bad form.

BoatMad wrote: »

Its freeloaders like you and others that will ultimately ruin the whole process for the majority

Seriously, I've a poor attitude, I'm happy to be rude and obnoxious, I'm a penny pincher and a freeloader....

Guys, I've been very courteous and appreciative of this forum, in both the information I received in making up my mind to move to an EV and also giving back full information on how much my EV cost and my experiences along the way yet with one post I get all these personal remarks.

By all means disagree with my post but to form a personal opinion on an isolated post is not on, basic rules of fora is to address the post not the person. I'm allowed to have a different approach to rapid charging and just for your interest to date I've done I'd say six maybe seven rapids which obviously makes me rude, obnoxious, penny pincher and a freeloader

Bye, better things to be doing with my life than this

BoatMad

We need a sensible charging regime, with a fair incidental fee for the freeloaders who don't support the national infrastructure, and a healthy membership level for those who cannot install home charging, set at a level where it's not excessive compared to home use.

Home night rate is available at 6 cents per KWH, dream on if at the end of the day FCP usage will be anywhere near that , the evidence from Europe is anywhere from 30 cents - 50 cents per KWh is the case, the breaker point as compared to small modern diesels is around 30-35 cents per KWH

BoatMad

slave1 wrote: »

Seriously, I've a poor attitude, I'm happy to be rude and obnoxious, I'm a penny pincher and a freeloader....

Guys, I've been very courteous and appreciative of this forum, in both the information I received in making up my mind to move to an EV and also giving back full information on how much my EV cost and my experiences along the way yet with one post I get all these personal remarks.

By all means disagree with my post but to form a personal opinion on an isolated post is not on, basic rules of fora is to address the post not the person. I'm allowed to have a different approach to rapid charging and just for your interest to date I've done I'd say six maybe seven rapids which obviously makes me rude, obnoxious, penny pincher and a freeloader

Bye, better things to be doing with my life than this

Im sorry you feel put upon

but

This is very true, I like a quick 20-30minutes walk in the evening if the weather's good, it's as easy for me to pop to the rapid charge, connect her up and then go for a walk, come back to 80%+charge and pop home, only adds 6/7minutes to the overall routine

suggests that while you could have a home EVSE , you choose to available of the local FCP, most likely because its free.

I think its your attitude that cause people too find annoyance. i.e. you are consuming a valuable resource that other people may " need" to use , whereas you could have an option to charge elsewhere

goz83

DrPhilG wrote: »

Guaranteed to rile up people who may need the charger to get home and find that it is being tied up for 20-30 minutes by someone who just likes a bit of free juice though...

Perfectly legal of course, but I wouldn't do it.

The difference from your example of Topaz giving away a free tank of diesel is that
(1)a free tank of diesel would save you a significant amount of money. A free fill of electric will save you about €2 so hardly worth the effort.

I used to drive the Malahide road via Kinsealy and would regularly see, just after 11pm (iirc) the garage was full of cars being refuelled. I soon learned that fuel dropped by about 10c per litre after 11pm at the garage. So you might say that the diesel example is appropriate, given that ICE drivers flocked to the garage at ungodly hours to save a couple of euro.

DrPhilG wrote: »

(2)Spending up to 30 minutes on a fast charger that you don't actually need could delay someone getting to their destination by 30 minutes. Kinda selfish to delay someone else just to save yourself €2 isn't it?

I agree that it's selfish to park up, plug in and walk away. The times I have plugged in at public chargers for "free juice" I would remain with the car. I might be gone for 5 minutes to get a drink in the shop, but if anyone needs a charge, they are welcome to it and I can unplug. For someone doing good miles, that €2 is easily a tenner a week (or 500 a year). I love getting out for a quick spin (in EV or Petrol) and it's suited me a couple of times to top up to 80ish% . What matters, is that I respect the fact that others might "need" a charge and so I am not blocking anyone.

I like the idea of leaving my card in the flap if anyone needs to unplug me. That would give me a bit more freedom to leave the car if I wanted, while not blocking anyone.

There really should be an option on the CP to allow someone disconnect you unless you opt to disallow this feature. It could be programmed to allow the original car to be re-connected after the second car has finished charging. Surely it would just be a software upgrade.

Calahonda52

The plan for decarbonising the transport grid is, in part, to have most of the charging done at night, using base load or gen-sets that like being run all day al night.
In fact there is an argument to eliminate FCPs and just have the 22KW ones and price FCPs like the Dublin Tunnel: 10 euro at peak times and 3 euro at other times.
Building FCPs to facilitate apartment dwellers is the wrong answer as well.

Slave1: no need to throw the toys out of the pram.
Nobody played the man here, your actions describing how you, leaving the car unattended, would hog the FCP, which are designed to be like an e-oasis in the transport net work for e-weary travellers, are not designed for the behaviour you describe.
In the desert, if an unattended camel is hogging the watering hole it gets moved or even shot....

liamog

Apartments, Townhouses and Terrace houses account for a large amount of the population.
Domestic charging just isn't likely for these people, I know that future planning laws have requirements, but the majority of our housing stock has been built already.

I'm in the middle of installing a charger at the on-street parking space outside my home, it's costing a fair bit, and the amount of time it's taken is ridiculous because of the number of hoops to jump through.

Many people on this forum would say that EVs are not suitable for people in these circumstances. I'm trying to avoid that problem.

The IONIQ with it's range really suits us, we require a charge twice a week. It's probably madness for me to be spending >€1,000 on installing a charger.

When we start hitting 350/400 km in range from a full charge, the requirement for home chargers becomes less.

I expect that current EV drivers mostly charge at home because they need to. If you only needed to plug in once a week, would people still go to the bother, especially in the non-private space world.

DrPhilG

goz83 wrote: »

I agree that it's selfish to park up, plug in and walk away. The times I have plugged in at public chargers for "free juice" I would remain with the car.

I or do sometimes take on free juice at the FCP down the road from work. Grab some food, plug in and eat. But as I don't need it, I will always move on if someone else arrives and needs the charge.

Making someone wait when you dont need to charge is bad form. Leaving the car unattended for 39 minutes is even worse because the next person doesn't know when you will return so they don't know if they will be waiting 30 minutes or 2 hours.

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Slave1: no need to throw the toys out of the pram.
Nobody played the man here, your actions describing how you, leaving the car unattended, would hog the FCP, which are designed to be like an e-oasis in the transport net work for e-weary travellers, are not designed for the behaviour you describe.

Precisely.

Calahonda52

liamog wrote: »

Apartments, Townhouses and Terrace houses account for a large amount of the population.
Domestic charging just isn't likely for these people, I know that future planning laws have requirements, but the majority of our housing stock has been built already.

I am talking about FCP or rapid charging, not the slower ones which are a different topics.

I'm in the middle of installing a charger at the on-street parking space outside my home, it's costing a fair bit, and the amount of time it's taken is ridiculous because of the number of hoops to jump through.

Many people on this forum would say that EVs are not suitable for people in these circumstances. I'm trying to avoid that problem.

The IONIQ with it's range really suits us, we require a charge twice a week. It's probably madness for me to be spending >€1,000 on installing a charger.

When we start hitting 350/400 km in range from a full charge, the requirement for home chargers becomes less.

I disagree.

I expect that current EV drivers mostly charge at home because they need to. If you only needed to plug in once a week, would people still go to the bother, especially in the non-private space world.

I disagree again: they use HC because it suits their lifestyle, driving patterns etc

grogi

liamog wrote: »

When we start hitting 350/400 km in range from a full charge, the requirement for home chargers becomes less.

And why is that? True - you will charge less frequently, but that energy does not come just from the Sun...

I expect that current EV drivers mostly charge at home because they need to. If you only needed to plug in once a week, would people still go to the bother, especially in the non-private space world.

Where else? At the FCP that will be constantly blocked by other free-loaders?

ei9go

It's obviously ridiculous to give away free fuel but while they do why would you not take some as long as you show consideration to others
A bigger challenge is going to be the PHEV's.
Should these be allowed access the charger network at all?
I see a huge Volvo jeep plugged in regularly.
Now who pays up to 90K for one of these and needs to plug it into the charger network so they can get 15 free miles.

BoatMad

The fact is that public charging cannot and will never support mass adoption of EVs, its simply impossible , given the battery " refuelling " times ( which will get worse as battery capacity grows) . FCPS are designed to allow people that exceed the range of their battery , to recharge and continue their journey

Thats it , thats what they are supposed to do

They are not there for " paddy" from next door to the FCP to pop around for a quick recharge while he walks the family dog.

The simple issue in Ireland is that for many reasons, FCP have been incorrectly sited near population centres, and in places like shopping centres

in reality they should be in a wasteland on the side of major roads with no or little provision for alternative activities, except say from a coffee dispenser or something

unfortunately Ecars in a rush to spend money accepted whatever they were offered and that mainly turned out to be retail car parking spaces in urban centres

There is plenty of evidence ( and it was said to be by an installer ) , that many free installs of home chargers are not be used , and that equally there is considerably more EVs then home chargers

My own, rather controversial view, is that ECars FCP cards should not be given to people that cannot or will not install home EVSEs. Sorry if that disqualifies apartment dwellers, but the current approach is unsustainable

BoatMad

ei9go wrote: »

It's obviously ridiculous to give away free fuel but while they do why would you not take some as long as you show consideration to others
A bigger challenge is going to be the PHEV's.
Should these be allowed access the charger network at all?
I see a huge Volvo jeep plugged in regularly.
Now who pays up to 90K for one of these and needs to plug it into the charger network so they can get 15 free miles.

the simple answer is to limit all charge cycles at FCPs to 30 minutes in any hour on a case by case FCP basis, i.e. busy units

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

I don't think NIMAN's thread is the place for a discussion on charging etiquette, and certainly not the place to critique other's use of the network.

Can we pull this back on topic and refrain from the personal attacks?

cross, topics are like bar talk, once the original topic is satiated , they move onto the next topic

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

the simple answer is to limit all charge cycles at FCPs to 30 minutes in any hour on a case by case FCP basis, i.e. busy units

30 min FCPs, banks of SCPs in shopping centers.

A system where you can request an SCP be installed in a public location less than 5 minutes walk from your property.

We all get to walk away happy.

goz83

I'm on hold to DCC. I can't understand why they are refusing to install an FCP on the tree outside my house


@boatman....the 30 min limit would work really well actually. Ecotricity in the UK have this in place. You pay £6 for 30 minutes.....although there were issues with the CPs where they went over 30 mins and kept charging.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

30 min FCPs, banks of SCPs in shopping centers.

A system where you can request an SCP be installed in a public location less than 5 minutes walk from your property.

We all get to walk away happy.

SCPs in urban roadside locations have no future, parking cannot be reserved for EVs to the detriment of residents

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

SCPs in urban roadside locations have no future, parking cannot be reserved for EVs to the detriment of residents

So locals shouldn't use FCPs and they can't have SCPs installed in their area?

You can have one or the other, we either have urban SCPs with enough locally that anybody can charge, or we have Urban FCP banks where a number of people can quickly charge.

EVs are suitable for everybody, not just the elite I have a driveway crowd.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

So locals shouldn't use FCPs and they can't have SCPs installed in their area?

You can have one or the other, we either have urban SCPs with enough locally that anybody can charge, or we have Urban FCP banks where a number of people can quickly charge.

EVs are suitable for everybody, not just the elite I have a driveway crowd.

Ultimately EVs with a range of battery capacity " will be suitable for everyone "

Today that is not the case and current EVs rely far too much on a limited public charging network. Clearly that network will not support significant growth and its not clear if any commercial solution will be actually viable , especially in a sparely populated country like Ireland

The fact is ( and this is DCCs view) is that SCP spaces cannot be reserved in residential areas, where residents are already denied car parking because there is not enough road space.

Hence any sort of large scale urban roadside charging system is untenable. the solution is private EV parks, but achieving that cost effectively in urban centres would be a huge challenge

FCPs are primarily designed for EVs that do not have range to reach their intended destination, hence ECARs original idea was to place them alongside major roads routes. They had severe access issues and many ended up in urban shopping centres and this has encouraged " bad practices "

Long term EVs will have have to mainly charged " at home " ( whatever that is ) its simply not possible to build huge charger networks

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

Ultimately EVs with a range of battery capacity " will be suitable for everyone "

Today that is not the case and current EVs rely far too much on a limited public charging network. Clearly that network will not support significant growth and its not clear if any commercial solution will be actually viable , especially in a sparely populated country like Ireland

If you've bought an EV that you have to charge more than twice a week at an FCP mid journey then you've bought a vehicle that is unsuitable.

CCS is going to 350kW, that's 5 mins to charge a 30kWh car, or 10 mins to charge a 60kWh (350/400km) which is pretty comparable to dino juice.

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact is ( and this is DCCs view) is that SCP spaces cannot be reserved in residential areas, where residents are already denied car parking because there is not enough road space.

Hence any sort of large scale urban roadside charging system is untenable. the solution is private EV parks, but achieving that cost effectively in urban centres would be a huge challenge

DCC has an opinion that we shouldn't reserve spaces for EVs. DCC also thinks that buildings should not be given planning permission without lopping a story off the top. I'd love to have EV equipped streets driven by residents demands. City air quality would drastically improve.

BoatMad wrote: »

FCPs are primarily designed for EVs that do not have range to reach their intended destination, hence ECARs original idea was to place them alongside major roads routes. They had severe access issues and many ended up in urban shopping centres and this has encouraged " bad practices "

Long term EVs will have have to mainly charged " at home " ( whatever that is ) its simply not possible to build huge charger networks

FCPs should not be used to address the short term shortcomings in early EVs.
We have to plan for tomorrow instead of optimising for today.

Who would really make the choice of charging a 60kW car in 10 minutes at a station vs 9 1/2 hours at a public charging park.

Better to have demand management at a charging station than spread pointless EVSE's across every home in the country.

BoatMad

If you've bought an EV that you have to charge more than twice a week at an FCP mid journey then you've bought a vehicle that is unsuitable.

exactly charging should be primarily done at home or at destination chargers not FCPs

CCS is going to 350kW, that's 5 mins to charge a 30kWh car, or 10 mins to charge a 60kWh (350/400km) which is pretty comparable to dino juice.

you cant charge a 60kwh Li battery at 350Kwh , unlike you I actually work with Li technology

DCC has an opinion that we shouldn't reserve spaces for EVs. DCC also thinks that buildings should not be given planning permission without lopping a story off the top. I'd love to have EV equipped streets driven by residents demands. City air quality would drastically improve.

I am telling you that the idea that spaces can be " reserved in any numbers for EV charging on road side residential areas is a non starter

FCPs should not be used to address the short term shortcomings in early EVs.
We have to plan for tomorrow instead of optimising for today.

I agree, but we have very little idea that the future of private transport will be and the changes it will cause to occur in usage and user patterns. We could be doing all the wrong things today that will be rendered useless by future directions

Who would really make the choice of charging a 60kW car in 10 minutes at a station vs 9 1/2 hours at a public charging park.

I have addressed that point m you will never charge a 60 kwh in 10 minutes , the Li technology is not capable of handling that ( or not without some very serious climate systems and even then you have tech issues )

Better to have demand manager at a charging station than spread pointless EVSE's across every home in the country.

You cannot build public charging system to handles 100,000 of EVS, and all current EV players recognise that , Home charging is a key component in the buildup of EVs

ELM327

Yes theres a reason that a 60 kWh battery cannot be charged at 350 kW.
It's not possible to do!

However it's strange for someone who work in "LI-Ion batteries" to use the wrong term kWh when charging is measured in kW not kWh which is a measure of stored power.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes theres a reason that a 60 kWh battery cannot be charged at 350 kW.
It's not possible to do!

However it's strange for someone who work in "LI-Ion batteries" to use the wrong term kWh when charging is measured in kW not kWh which is a measure of stored power.

merely a slip of the keyboard , I know my Kw from my Kwh thanks , Kwh is actually a derived unit of energy

we all do it

Who would really make the choice of charging a 60kW car in 10 minutes at a station

liamog

Am I correct in inferring that if a 60kWh battery could charge at a max of 175kW then a 120kWh battery could charge at 350kW in the same time?

It's interesting to me that both Tesla and the German car makers are pushing 350kW charging, does this indicate much bigger cars are due, or that we've made progress on the max charge rate for upcoming battery chemistries.

Do you have any solution for home charging for the non private driving crowd?

grogi

liamog wrote: »

Am I correct in inferring that if a 60kWh battery could charge at a max of 175kW then a 120kWh battery could charge at 350kW in the same time?

It is a big simplification, but it seems so.

Simply speaking, the charging power is limited by the temperature of the battery. If it goes too hot, it gets damaged.

The temperature depends on three things:
- charging power - the faster you charge, the more power is lost and the battery gets thermal equilibrium at higher temperature.
- internal resistance of the battery - the more internal resistance, the more heat is generated - thus temperature stabilises at higher levels...
- cooling capabilities - self explanatory really...

Generally it is true that bigger batteries have less internal resistance. Especially if you build them by combining smaller batteries. We are also progressing in the cooling techniques. Thus we can charge faster...

It's interesting to me that both Tesla and the German car makers are pushing 350kW charging, does this indicate much bigger cars are due, or that we've made progress on the max charge rate for upcoming battery chemistries.

Do you have any solution for home charging for the non private driving crowd?

It is just future proofing. It is easier to push an under-utilised standard now, that will do the job in future than to roll out version 2 in 3 years. We, the mankind, already had a few attempts to it, there is enough knowledge to do it right now...


And I wanted to thank you for making the effort and spelling the units correctly... kW and Kw, not to mention kWh and kW - are not the same thing...

cros13

I'm just going to split off this charging discussion because it's OT.

Gumbo

Jesus.
I plugged into the FCP, went for a pint. Left phone in the car. I come back and log in and all hell had broken loose.....






















*may not actually be true.

makeorbrake

As regards charging etiquette, install chargebump -then place either of these (see below) on your dash - or both - and that can go a long way towards efficient use of a CP.

Everyone should be able to maximise their time whilst also using CP's efficiently. If you're not prepared to work with that app, then blame yourself - not everyone else.

'Tax Disc Replacement'

'A4/A5 Flyer'

BoatMad

Simply speaking, the charging power is limited by the temperature of the battery. If it goes too hot, it gets damaged.

With Li its actually quite complex. for example at very low temperatures charging may have to be suspended and in the pre-qualification stage where the battery is very low, a low power charge is necessary . Also high rate charging is limited by the intercalation rate , rather then " resistance ", where the anode gets coated in Li and begins to be unable to accept LI ions at the original rate . Its a very very complex process in Li and the science is not actually fully understood.

in reality for lots of reasons car companies with current Li tech, are going to limit rapid charging to 1-2C in Amps hence for a 30 kWh battery , practical limits are around 30-60 kW.

having said that Li is quite capable of 20C charging as any RC modeller will tell you , buts theres a reason they charge at this rate in basically a fireproof pit !!!

Li is a very durable battery technology , considerably more durable then lead acid ( and easier to charge )

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

With Li its actually quite complex. for example at very low temperatures charging may have to be suspended and in the pre-qualification stage where the battery is very low, a low power charge is necessary . Also high rate charging is limited by the intercalation rate , rather then " resistance ", where the anode gets coated in Li and begins to be unable to accept LI ions at the original rate . Its a very very complex process in Li and the science is not actually fully understood.

in reality for lots of reasons car companies with current Li tech, are going to limit rapid charging to 1-2C in Amps hence for a 30 kWh battery , practical limits are around 30-60 kW.

having said that Li is quite capable of 20C charging as any RC modeller will tell you , buts theres a reason they charge at this rate in basically a fireproof pit !!!

Li is a very durable battery technology , considerably more durable then lead acid ( and easier to charge )

The IONIQ is capable of charging a 28kWh battery at a 70kW charger, am I correct to say this is 2.5C rate of charge?

So to get to 60kWh at 350kW we need to reach nearly 6C?
My guess is that active cooling and different battery chemistries will reach this safely in the near future.

BoatMad

My guess is that active cooling and different battery chemistries will reach this safely in the near future.

Ill be impressed if we see 6C in the near future ( 5-8 years ) . price pressure on larger batteries will tend to force simpler battery heat solutions , rather then more complex ones

of course we could move on from Li tech, but nothings really on the horizon at the moment

cros13

liamog wrote: »

So to get to 60kWh at 350kW we need to reach nearly 6C?

Nobody is talking about 350kW charging of 50-60kWh packs. The majority of next-gen cars out there even in the 85-95kWh class have targeted charging rates of ~170kW. The few looking at higher rates than that (like Porsche and Lucid) have high capacity packs (135kWh in the case of lucid...using Samsung SDIs new cells) and bigger margin to throw at cooling systems and the like...

It's important for the infrastructure to be capable of supplying more... both for longer-term cars and for HGVs and Buses today.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Nobody is talking about 350kW charging of 50-60kWh packs. The majority of next-gen cars out there even in the 85-95kWh class have targeted charging rates of ~170kW. The few looking at higher rates than that (like Porsche and Lucid) have high capacity packs (135kWh in the case of lucid...using Samsung SDIs new cells) and bigger margin to throw at cooling systems and the like...

It's important for the infrastructure to be capable of supplying more... both for longer-term cars and for HGVs and Buses today.

I agree, I think we shall see charge rates remaining at 1-2C for the immediate future , but bigger packs will need greater power at FCPs and in that regard ESB distribution has not future proofed charger sites enough

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

I agree, I think we shall see charge rates remaining at 1-2C for the immediate future , but bigger packs will need greater power at FCPs and in that regard ESB distribution has not future proofed charger sites enough

We already have cars that charge at 2.5C.
Rate of fast charge could become a selling point for new vehicles.

I'd like to see eCars upgrade to the new Efacec 350kW chargers in any new phase. The chargers are capable of operating in a multi head mode to split the total power. This could help avoid some of the issue we currently see with charger use.

grogi

liamog wrote: »

We already have cars that charge at 2.5C.
Rate of fast charge could become a selling point for new vehicles.

I'd like to see eCars upgrade to the new Efacec 350kW chargers in any new phase. The chargers are capable of operating in a multi head mode to split the total power. This could help avoid some of the issue we currently see with charger use.

Ioniq charges at 3.33C... If I remember correctly it has 100 kW on-board charger (which is advertised only on selected markets) with battery of 30 kWh...

cros13

grogi wrote: »

Ioniq charges at 3.33C... If I remember correctly it has 100W onboard charger (which is advertised only on selected markets) with battery of 30kWh...

Nah... it's 80kW everywhere but they advertise it as 50 / 70 / 80 or 100kW depending on the market. They peak between 2.1 and 2.6C depending on SoC, ambient temp. etc. etc. etc.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

Nah... it's 80kW everywhere but they advertise it as 50 / 70 / 80 or 100kW depending on the market. They peak between 2.1 and 2.6C depending on SoC, ambient temp. etc. etc. etc.

Wouldn't advertising it as 100 kW charger open them to suits of false advertising?

liamog

The real world test peaked at 70kW when connected to a 100kW charger.

I suppose they can market it as supports connection to a 100kW charger.

BoatMad

There's no on board " charger " of 100kw , there merely a battery management system that controls the external fast DC charger and decides on charge rate up to the maximum allowed by the external DC charge poInt

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

The real world test peaked at 70kW when connected to a 100kW charger.

I suppose they can market it as supports connection to a 100kW charger.

That's a bit VW like!

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a bit VW like!

VW would roll out a 3.3kW CCS connector and say it's supports the full 350.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

VW would roll out a 3.3kW CCS connector and say it's supports the full 350.

personally VW was scape goated , the whole industry is cheating on emissions , VW were just the ones that got caught

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

personally VW was scape goated , the whole industry is cheating on emissions , VW were just the ones that got caught

Oh but of course.

We need to move away from powering our transport with little fires made from explosions of crushed dinosaurs and onwards to solar powered EV!

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh but of course.

We need to move away from powering our transport with little fires made from explosions of crushed dinosaurs and onwards to solar powered EV!

and free pinacoladas

ELM327

That would be welcome aswell.
Just the one, mind, as I have to drive 30 minutes later!

liamog

As part of the dieselgate settlement, VW will be funding a 150kW Charger Network in the US.

They have an interesting charging hierarchy.
They see 150kW - 350kW chargers as the ones needed on motorway routes.
50kW DC for community charging, presumably setups like the Blanch/Lucan shopping centers that the non-dubs here think are so terrible.
AC Chargers for destinations and city streets.

BoatMad

liamog wrote: »

As part of the dieselgate settlement, VW will be funding a 150kW Charger Network in the US.

They have an interesting charging hierarchy.
They see 150kW - 350kW chargers as the ones needed on motorway routes.
50kW DC for community charging, presumably setups like the Blanch/Lucan shopping centers that the non-dubs here think are so terrible.
AC Chargers for destinations and city streets.

I think that anyone that sits here today, be it boardsies or VW, are guessing as to how EV road side charging will develop over the next 20 years

we are seeing trends towards driver less cars, restrictions in urban driving etc

The whole thing is up in the air

liamog

BoatMad wrote: »

I think that anyone that sits here today, be it boardsies or VW, are guessing as to how EV road side charging will develop over the next 20 years

we are seeing trends towards driver less cars, restrictions in urban driving etc

The whole thing is up in the air

The same can be said of pretty much any sector.

A tiered infrastructure seems sensible.

n97 mini

ELM327 wrote: »

Oh but of course.

We need to move away from powering our transport with little fires made from explosions of crushed dinosaurs and onwards to solar powered EV!

The counter argument is if we don't mine it and burn it in a controlled fashion, it might catch fire underground and burn the place down! It has been known to happen!