2018 Leaf

Shefwedfan

highdef wrote: »

I did 140km with a few km to spare a few months ago in a 152 kWh so it is very possible

Did you stick a set of peddles on the car with a small generator to top her up as you drove along :-)



I would guess not a drop of air conditioning allowed....take off speed which I would pass out on my push bike etc etc....


Nothing over 90km/h and every eco button etc turned on :P

grudgehugger

While on the topic of range experiments...

Forgot to plug in my 2018 Leaf last night and used more battery than I expected on my inward commute (cold weather impact???) so was starting off on my 38km journey home with 20% battery. Should of course be fine but as an EV n00b used to a car with way more charge than needed for the journey I was a little nervous.

Drove home in eco mode at what felt like a crawl even though I still ended up overtaking at various points (my commute is Park West to Greystones so mostly M50 and N11).

Parked up with 9% battery so only used 11%.

Suggests the possibility of getting 38 times 9 (342km) out of a full charge if you adopt a LeafSpeed on steroids strategy.

IRL I’d probably get not much more than half that doing my normal driving.

The way you drive has a MASSIVE impact on how far a charge gets you. Probably completely obvious to most people here but still a little surprising how dramatic the difference is to this novice.

babybuilder

grudgehugger wrote: »

While on the topic of range experiments...

Forgot to plug in my 2018 Leaf last night and used more battery than I expected on my inward commute (cold weather impact???) so was starting off on my 38km journey home with 20% battery. Should of course be fine but as an EV n00b used to a car with way more charge than needed for the journey I was a little nervous.

Drove home in eco mode at what felt like a crawl even though I still ended up overtaking at various points (my commute is Park West to Greystones so mostly M50 and N11).

Parked up with 9% battery so only used 11%.

Suggests the possibility of getting 38 times 9 (342km) out of a full charge if you adopt a LeafSpeed on steroids strategy.

IRL I’d probably get not much more than half that doing my normal driving.

The way you drive has a MASSIVE impact on how far a charge gets you. Probably completely obvious to most people here but still a little surprising how dramatic the difference is to this novice.

Theoretically yes but not likely. I did a 90km journey , a mix of primary (mainly) and secondary roads. Air temperature was 12C, slight head wind, no rain. Never exceeded 90km/hr. Some flat but mostly undulating roads. B eco mode with occasional use of epedal in towns. Average 7 3 km/kWh. Works out at a possible 270km range if you use a figure of 38 kWh usable capacity. Btw aircon heater on at 18.5C for 20-30 mins. Tried hard to drive as economically as possible. Next time I'm just going B or D mode.

phoenix49

babybuilder wrote: »

Theoretically yes but not likely. I did a 90km journey , a mix of primary (mainly) and secondary roads. Air temperature was 12C, slight head wind, no rain. Never exceeded 90km/hr. Some flat but mostly undulating roads. B eco mode with occasional use of epedal in towns. Average 7 3 km/kWh. Works out at a possible 270km range if you use a figure of 38 kWh usable capacity. Btw aircon heater on at 18.5C for 20-30 mins. Tried hard to drive as economically as possible. Next time I'm just going B or D mode.

I think it's almost always preferable to drive in D mode to allow coasting as opposed to regen braking, unless you are on a downhill ride.


ePedal is great in towns/city traffic where you are forced to brake.

Soarer

Started watching this guy a couple of weeks back. Seems fairly spot on with most things.

He's been considering changing his L24 for an L40, but was concerned that his (at most) twice a year long trips couldn't be done due to #rapidgate.

Here's his experience, and to my mind, very considered/reasoned conclusion*.

* - I say that because it echos my own sentiments almost exactly!

ELM327

Havent watched that particular video but I'm going to guess the moral is "it's grand for most of the time and just suck it up on the odd road trip"??

That may be fine now, but with the Kona and Niro likely to be available shortly for similar money to the leaf, why would anyone buy a car with half the range ?

It of course works now if you never or rarely exceed the 200-250km range, or the 325km say range of 100% + 1 DC charge.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

Havent watched that particular video but I'm going to guess the moral is "it's grand for most of the time and just suck it up on the odd road trip"??

That may be fine now, but with the Kona and Niro likely to be available shortly for similar money to the leaf, why would anyone buy a car with half the range ?

It of course works now if you never or rarely exceed the 200-250km range, or the 325km say range of 100% + 1 DC charge.

Maybe watch the video?

Also, do you really think Nissan are gonna keep the price of the Leaf where it is when the competition come online?

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

Maybe watch the video?

Also, do you really think Nissan are gonna keep the price of the Leaf where it is when the competition come online?

It's 17 minutes, I don't have time to watch that


Just fire us up the main points....we can discuss then

Now to sit back and watch c**p on tv :-)

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

Maybe watch the video?

Also, do you really think Nissan are gonna keep the price of the Leaf where it is when the competition come online?

Cant as YT is blocked in work, will watch it later.
I don't know what they will do with pricing, tbh I would expect that the leaf60 will be out by then anyway.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Cant as YT is blocked in work, will watch it later.
I don't know what they will do with pricing, tbh I would expect that the leaf60 will be out by then anyway.

I would guess the dealers will be given more discount but it is up to the buyer to get it out of them......

Soarer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's 17 minutes, I don't have time to watch that


Just fire us up the main points....we can discuss then

Now to sit back and watch c**p on tv :-)

You mean you don’t have YouTube on your telly?

#pauper

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

You mean you don’t have YouTube on your telly?

#pauper

Doesn't matter what I have Youtube on.....I still aint watching 17 mins of that cr*p.....:P

Silent Running

OK, I watched it, albeit at 125% speed . He's typical of people reviewing the Leaf 40. He was throttled on both of the charges he did, even the first, but he feels that this is OK because he could live with it.

For me this completely misses the point. The car would affect me as I semi-regularly do 500 km runs. But that's not the point either. The point is that the car is defective and I will not pay full price for a defective item, no matter what it is. You can run the line that the car is operating as designed, but the root of it is that the design is defective.

The decision to design the car without thermal management is a mistake that Nissan made that led to a defective car. It doesn't matter a jot whether it personally affects you or not.

Soarer

Silent Running wrote: »

OK, I watched it, albeit at 125% speed . He's typical of people reviewing the Leaf 40. He was throttled on both of the charges he did, even the first, but he feels that this is OK because he could live with it.

For me this completely misses the point. The car would affect me as I semi-regularly do 500 km runs. But that's not the point either. The point is that the car is defective and I will not pay full price for a defective item, no matter what it is. You can run the line that the car is operating as designed, but the root of it is that the design is defective.

The decision to design the car without thermal management is a mistake that Nissan made that led to a defective car. It doesn't matter a jot whether it personally affects you or not.

Nobody’s disagreeing that Nissan fukked up.

But if you watched it at normal speed and listened to what he said, he explains that yes, he could live with it, but he’s not going to. He’s disappointed that the car is the way it is (who isn’t), and isn’t worth upgrading for him.
But he also said that he did that 250 mile trip a lot faster than it would’ve taken in his L24.

Anyways, I didn’t post the video for Ioniq owners to start with their usual “it doesn’t suit me so it doesn’t suit anybody” diatribe.
It’s for people that may be contemplating buying the L40, are worried about #rapidgate, and would like to see an unbiased take on things.

unkel

Watched it. I guess the bit in the middle says it all. He arrives at a fast charger and the car is telling him that the fast charge is going to take 2 hours. Anyone can make up their own mind just from that. If you never need to fast charge, the L40 is a perfectly fine EV. If you very rarely need to fast charge, you need to be able to cope with the wait. If you fast charge more regularly, don't buy it as you end up killing yourself, or more likely, being killed by the people in the queue behind you

Soarer

Just reading the VW Neo stuff.

From what we know, the L60 is gonna be pretty much the same as the L40, but with thermal management and more powerful motor.

So what are the odds that Nissan start putting thermal management into the L40 once the L60 is introduced?
Obviously it’ll royally fukk everyone that’s bought the current iteration of the L40.
But surely it’d make sense to have the same car, same floor pan, same everything. Then just drop in the required motor and battery?

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

Just reading the VW Neo stuff.

From what we know, the L60 is gonna be pretty much the same as the L40, but with thermal management and more powerful motor.

So what are the odds that Nissan start putting thermal management into the L40 once the L60 is introduced?
Obviously it’ll royally fukk everyone that’s bought the current iteration of the L40.
But surely it’d make sense to have the same car, same floor pan, same everything. Then just drop in the required motor and battery?

Huge law suit is why they won’t do that

They would have to admit they ****ed up and retro fit to every L40....the L40 will never have thermal management.....maybe at some sort of midrange refresh but not in current form

Soarer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Huge law suit is why they won’t do that

They would have to admit they ****ed up and retro fit to every L40....the L40 will never have thermal management.....maybe at some sort of midrange refresh but not in current form

Would they get sued though? The car is “working as designed”, and people have purchased.

Devil’s advocate like.

grudgehugger

Silent Running wrote: »

It doesn't matter a jot whether it personally affects you or not.

How does this comment make any sense? Or are you just trolling?

If rapidgate doesn’t affect you, this matters a LOT in terms of whether it’s a reasonable buy.

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

Would they get sued though? The car is “working as designed”, and people have purchased.

Devil’s advocate like.

If they change they admit a flaw in car, every 2 bit solicitor would be after them....

fairly easy case to win as well once they make a change, if they keep as is then it is working as designed

Soarer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If they change they admit a flaw in car, every 2 bit solicitor would be after them....

fairly easy case to win as well once they make a change, if they keep as is then it is working as designed

But they changed the battery in the L24 around 2013 with no lawsuits.

Soarer

grudgehugger wrote: »

How does this comment make any sense? Or are you just trolling?

If rapidgate doesn’t affect you, this matters a LOT in terms of whether it’s a reasonable buy.

I was on the phone and was too lazy to single out that bit.

It's a completely ridiculous statement. It's like not buying a diesel car because the price of petrol is going up!

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

But they changed the battery in the L24 around 2013 with no lawsuits.

That was a swap for newer technology which wasn’t available at launch

Can’t really sue for that....

Silent Running

grudgehugger wrote: »

How does this comment make any sense? Or are you just trolling?

If rapidgate doesn’t affect you, this matters a LOT in terms of whether it’s a reasonable buy.

If you feel I'm trolling please feel free to report my post. However, I'm as entitled to put my thoughts forward as you are.

It doesn't matter if the car would give you headaches or not, nothing changes the fact that the car is defective. Denial of this fact seems to be some sort of mechanism that Nissan advocates use to spring to the defence of the manufacturer.

Even though I watched a 17 minute video that could have been 5 minutes if it wasn't filled with repeated waffle, I heard every word.

If you read what I posted, I said that whether it affects you or not, the car is deeply flawed. Is that so hard to understand?

Addressing Soarer's normal dig at Ioniq owners, I re-iterate: it's nothing to do with whether the car "suits" any driver. The car is defective!

I've nothing against the Nissan brand, or the leaf model in general, and I will seriously consider the Leaf 60 as a replacement for the Ioniq... unless Nissan fuck that one up too.

Soarer

Silent Running wrote: »

Denial of this fact seems to be some sort of mechanism that Nissan advocates use to spring to the defence of the manufacturer

This is the sort of blinkered, myopic view that's so annoying to read post after post.

Who on here has ever denied that Nissan fukked up by not putting in thermal management?

The L40 is flawed when it comes to battery management and rapid charging.

But if you rarely/never rapid charge, #rapidgate is irrelevant.

Silent Running wrote: »

Addressing Soarer's normal dig at Ioniq owners, I re-iterate: it's nothing to do with whether the car "suits" any driver. The car is defective!

The car isn't defective!

The car works exactly as designed.

Plus, it's not a "normal dig at Ioniq owners". I've nothing against Ioniq owners, and I've nothing against the Ioniq. I've actually recommended the Ioniq to colleagues!
I have a dig at the same posters making the same points over and over.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

This is the sort of blinkered, myopic view that's so annoying to read post after post.

Who on here has ever denied that Nissan fukked up by not putting in thermal management?

The L40 is flawed when it comes to battery management and rapid charging.

But if you rarely/never rapid charge, #rapidgate is irrelevant.



The car isn't defective!

The car works exactly as designed.

Plus, it's not a "normal dig at Ioniq owners". I've nothing against Ioniq owners, and I've nothing against the Ioniq. I've actually recommended the Ioniq to colleagues!
I have a dig at the same posters making the same points over and over.

I understand his point, the constant jibes at the L40 for Rapidgate and the constant jibes at Ioniq/Ioniq owners in return gets tedious for both sides.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

I understand his point, the constant jibes at the L40 for Rapidgate and the constant jibes at Ioniq/Ioniq owners in return gets tedious for both sides.

Agreed.

But if I may defend myself, I only ever reply to comments made. Like I've mentioned just above, I've no problem with the Ioniq, and don't own an L40.

But it seems that Ioniq owners have the biggest problem with the L40 for some reason.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I understand his point, the constant jibes at the L40 for Rapidgate and the constant jibes at Ioniq/Ioniq owners in return gets tedious for both sides.

I personally don't understand the jibes. We live in Ireland, not America or UK. At most people will do maybe 1 fast charge the odd time during the day. Most charging will be done at home

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

But it seems that Ioniq owners have the biggest problem with the L40 for some reason.

That's an interesting observation. Probably true. From my own (limited) experience I find that most new L40 owners used to own a L24 or L30 before

Personally, I was interested in buying a L24. It was going to be my only family car. But the limited range and having to rely heavily on public charging because of that put me off. I waited a while and when Ioniq came along I went ahead with it. It is far more efficient, quicker charging and you can drive at much higher speeds without it impacting on your range as much. That's probably more than enough reason why I wouldn't buy a L40 after having owned Ioniq and I'd say the same is true for pretty much every other Ioniq owner in this country. And then there is the state of our public charging network and the CCS only Ionity network that is coming (on which the L40 can't charge)

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I personally don't understand the jibes. We live in Ireland, not America or UK. At most people will do maybe 1 fast charge the odd time during the day. Most charging will be done at home

I think I speak for pretty much everyone on this forum when I say rapidgate has been done to death and I really don't want to retread those "discussions".


Most charging will indeed be done at home, and I haven't used a public charger since I got my home charger installed. That doesnt change the fact that the leaf is behind the times with regard to fast charging. With 180-220km estimated real world motorway range (depending on speed) the leaf is a competent car. the problem is if you do 100km on the motorway to go somewhere with no destination charger. then you have to limp home or fast charge. And what if you go 150 km on the motorway, then you may have to charge for 50 minutes-1 hour or charge twice and encounter rapidgate. The leaf40 was slower than the leaf30 going dublin to cork return. That's my issue - It's not progression. (I'm not claiming rapidgate will impact everyone).... yes it's fine for most people most of the time. No it won't impact everyone every day, but it's there lurking in the background, and be it real or perceived inhibited use, it will (and has) impacted resale values. And people don't like to be deceived. Nissan changed their quoted recharge times in the brochures after deliveries of the new leaf.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

That's an interesting observation. Probably true. From my own (limited) experience I find that most new L40 owners used to own a L24 or L30 before

Personally, I was interested in buying a L24. It was going to be my only family car. But the limited range and having to rely heavily on public charging because of that put me off. I waited a while and when Ioniq came along I went ahead with it. It is far more efficient, quicker charging and you can drive at much higher speeds without it impacting on your range as much. That's probably more than enough reason why I wouldn't buy a L40 after having owned Ioniq and I'd say the same is true for pretty much every other Ioniq owner in this country. And then there is the state of our public charging network and the CCS only Ionity network that is coming (on which the L40 can't charge)

Most Ioniq owners I speak to are previous L24 owners (like me!).

Chademo is another issue waiting in the wings for the L40 in ireland (as the public "network" decays).

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Most Ioniq owners I speak to are previous L24 owners (like me!).

Really? Of the 35 or so Ioniq owners on this forum, I think you are probably the only one or one of the very few. Almost every single Ioniq owner seems to be new to EVs

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Really? Of the 35 or so Ioniq owners on this forum, I think you are probably the only one or one of the very few. Almost every single Ioniq owner seems to be new to EVs

Sorry, i meant that I spoke to at chargers or that.
Ye n00bs don't know the true hardship that was doing long distances in the L24 :D

unkel

I don't think you suffered as much as Mad_Lad, having to charge on his way to work and again on his way home. Every day :eek:

Where is he anyway? Haven't seen him post here in a while?

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

I don't think you suffered as much as Mad_Lad, having to charge on his way to work and again on his way home. Every day :eek:

Where is he anyway? Haven't seen him post here in a while?

Petrol's @ €1.50 per litre, so he's stuck at public chargepoints again!

unkel

Haha, still only a bit over a tenner to fill the massive tank of his PHEV

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

I think I speak for pretty much everyone on this forum when I say rapidgate has been done to death and I really don't want to retread those "discussions".


Most charging will indeed be done at home, and I haven't used a public charger since I got my home charger installed. That doesnt change the fact that the leaf is behind the times with regard to fast charging. With 180-220km estimated real world motorway range (depending on speed) the leaf is a competent car. the problem is if you do 100km on the motorway to go somewhere with no destination charger. then you have to limp home or fast charge. And what if you go 150 km on the motorway, then you may have to charge for 50 minutes-1 hour or charge twice and encounter rapidgate. The leaf40 was slower than the leaf30 going dublin to cork return. That's my issue - It's not progression. (I'm not claiming rapidgate will impact everyone).... yes it's fine for most people most of the time. No it won't impact everyone every day, but it's there lurking in the background, and be it real or perceived inhibited use, it will (and has) impacted resale values. And people don't like to be deceived. Nissan changed their quoted recharge times in the brochures after deliveries of the new leaf.

Would I buy an L40 for myself....No....not because of Rapidgate....that is a mild issue...Mostly because of all the other factors. Half a digital display for one, like why bother your arse?

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Would I buy an L40 for myself....No....not because of Rapidgate....that is a mild issue...Mostly because of all the other factors. Half a digital display for one, like why bother your arse?

1st world problem for sure. Analogue speedo is quite relaxing experience actually. Used my motorcycle last week and it reminded again how annoying the constantly changing digts on the old model was. Analogue one just quietly sits there without any drama. Bliss. OK, I admit that Nissan could have made the instrument panel more attractive. The second half of the tft screen has lots of infromation to choose from though.

I expected to hate the dial but actually really ended up liking it. As of the rest of car: We have now covered just over 19k. The car will need the first service well before the 1st year is up it seems.

phoenix49

Silent Running wrote: »

It doesn't matter if the car would give you headaches or not, nothing changes the fact that the car is defective. Denial of this fact seems to be some sort of mechanism that Nissan advocates use to spring to the defence of the manufacturer.

Even though I watched a 17 minute video that could have been 5 minutes if it wasn't filled with repeated waffle, I heard every word.

If you read what I posted, I said that whether it affects you or not, the car is deeply flawed. Is that so hard to understand?

Addressing Soarer's normal dig at Ioniq owners, I re-iterate: it's nothing to do with whether the car "suits" any driver. The car is defective!

I've nothing against the Nissan brand, or the leaf model in general, and I will seriously consider the Leaf 60 as a replacement for the Ioniq... unless Nissan fuck that one up too.

Sorry, but Leaf is NOT defective, it works as designed, it is slow on subsequent rapid charges and every driver who drives L40 knows that. In my 5k kms I did rapid charging only once, it wasn't rapidgated and I did that just to see how it works. I charge at home and probably would need to rapidcharge once or twice a day on long trips across the island maybe couple of times a year.

On the contrary, "defective" means that the car doesn't work as intended, a good example: liquid cooling on an Ioniq brakes down - then Ioniq becomes defective as it can not charge nor operate properly without liquid cooling

DrPhilG

All the folks saying that #rapidgate doesn't affect them, presumably they intend to keep their cars for life and never sell or trade them?

cros13

unkel wrote: »

PHEV

*cough* EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) if you please.... :pac:

ELM327

phoenix49 wrote: »

Sorry, but Leaf is NOT defective, it works as designed, it is slow on subsequent rapid charges and every driver who drives L40 knows that. In my 5k kms I did rapid charging only once, it wasn't rapidgated and I did that just to see how it works. I charge at home and probably would need to rapidcharge once or twice a day on long trips across the island maybe couple of times a year.

On the contrary, "defective" means that the car doesn't work as intended, a good example: liquid cooling on an Ioniq brakes down - then Ioniq becomes defective as it can not charge nor operate properly without liquid cooling

Defective means not functioning as offered. The car was offered with "fast charges from LBW to 80% in 30-40 minutes". People bought the car then Nissan changed the literature to have a catchall for rapidgate and extended the timeframe.


FWIW on a point of order, Ioniqs don't have liquid cooling, just active thermal management with air cooling fans.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

All the folks saying that #rapidgate doesn't affect them, presumably they intend to keep their cars for life and never sell or trade them?

Hopefully the person buying mine after I'm done with it won't need to drive to Finland in a hurry.

ELM327

cros13 wrote: »

*cough* EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) if you please.... :pac:

cough cough BEVx if you please.

It can be called/designated John Q ElectricCar for all it matters, it has a tailpipe and a plug, it's a phev.

phoenix49

ELM327 wrote: »

Defective means not functioning as offered. The car was offered with "fast charges from LBW to 80% in 30-40 minutes". People bought the car then Nissan changed the literature to have a catchall for rapidgate and extended the timeframe.


FWIW on a point of order, Ioniqs don't have liquid cooling, just active thermal management with air cooling fans.

My dealer and the manual says that subsequent charges may be throttled depending on battery temps. Don't see a problem here.

phoenix49

DrPhilG wrote: »

All the folks saying that #rapidgate doesn't affect them, presumably they intend to keep their cars for life and never sell or trade them?

One thing which will affect the price for sure - extra rant about rapidgate. I already imagine a potential buyer in a few years trying to dump the price because of that. It's an excellent car and I would pick it again over Ioniq if I had a chance . At the same time, it would be nice to have an active cooling which would make the car extra capable and save an hour or two per year (no pun) and maybe even reduce battery degradation.

ELM327

phoenix49 wrote: »

My dealer and the manual says that subsequent charges may be throttled depending on battery temps. Don't see a problem here.

Some leaf40 fanboys are genuinely worse than apple ones.


The initial sales were made before rapidgate was known. Nissan UK denied it until Nissan NA confirmed it and the UK Nissan branch had to confess, and changed their literature to remove the 30-40 minutes to 80% and replaced it with 40-80 depending on temps.


Some people on here would literally defend the fact that the earth is flat.

ELM327

Reading the posts from "phoenix" above reminds me of these two posts earlier today. Why can't we all play nice. [snip]

ELM327 wrote: »

I understand his point, the constant jibes at the L40 for Rapidgate and the constant jibes at Ioniq/Ioniq owners in return gets tedious for both sides.

Soarer wrote: »

Agreed.

But if I may defend myself, I only ever reply to comments made. Like I've mentioned just above, I've no problem with the Ioniq, and don't own an L40.

But it seems that Ioniq owners have the biggest problem with the L40 for some reason.

Mod Note: Yes, Why can't we all play nice?

Shefwedfan

DrPhilG wrote: »

All the folks saying that #rapidgate doesn't affect them, presumably they intend to keep their cars for life and never sell or trade them?

Ever Leaf has suffered that issue

L24 Gen 1 dropped in price due to battery
L24 Gen 2 dropped because the 30kWh came out and Nissan started to sell it off for 20k new
L30 is kind of holding price but question over battery
L40 rapidgate
L60 the wheel will probably fall off or something like that

phoenix49

ELM327 wrote: »

Some leaf40 fanboys are genuinely worse than apple ones.


The initial sales were made before rapidgate was known. Nissan UK denied it until Nissan NA confirmed it and the UK Nissan branch had to confess, and changed their literature to remove the 30-40 minutes to 80% and replaced it with 40-80 depending on temps.


Some people on here would literally defend the fact that the earth is flat.

"fanboy" seems like a personal thing and it's absolutely irrelevant


rapidgate issue was known since April well before deliveries and the largest number of Leafs were sold/delivered in July - plenty of time for "nonfanboys" or "Ioniq fanboys" to reconsider


FWIW, the Earth is round :cool: