2018 Leaf

Mechatronical

Hi all,

Was checking this thread out as I was hoping to get a Hyundai Kona for a company car but unfortunately it is not within our budget. 

The 2018 leaf is within the budget however I have worries about the range. I need to head from Collooney Sligo to Cellbridge once per week and return a few days later (~ 190km one way). On the brochure I have been provided it specs the current 2018 model to have 270kmh range (I assume this is with the EPA range @ 243km)

My question is this, is the current Leaf capable of making that trip in Winter (standard national road (N4) turning to motor way around Mullingar (M4)) The part of N4 around Sligo would have a few hilly parts but nothing major.  I was checking out the ESB charging map and was thinking I may need to stop at Enfield Service station (45KM CHAdeMO charging point) on the M4 and charge there for 30 mins to complete my journey. 

I have been checking out some videos regarding the leaf and come across a video where a guy tested the range of the Leaf in British Columbia where the Leaf struggled badly (albeit in wintery conditions with a lot of driving on hilly roads). Obviously not a perfect comparison but is this something I would come to expect from the car including the long charge times due to the lack of TMS.  The lack of active battery cooling seems to be a real drawback for this car. (link below). Wondering is the lower battery capacity Hyundai Ioniq easier to live with in terms of the time spent waiting for it to charge (given the Ioniq has TMS, Ioniq is within budget also).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvjkSAlv0ng

Apart from that long commute I wouldn't really need the Leaf for any other routine long journeys.

Wonder would it be worth waiting for the 2019 Leaf to come out, does anybody know if there will be a 2019 Leaf even? Link below seems to suggest it will but not until late next year.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-leaf-2019-specs-range-charging/

Also with the ETVI scheme for tolls where the toll is 50% of what a petrol/diesel vehicles are , do you need to set up a toll tag for that?

Sorry about all the questions, just wondering if the 2018 leaf is easy to live with for the commute I have each week. 

Cheers.

KCross

You'd probably have to drive at ~100km/h to be sure in winter.
The TMS side of things wont matter in this particular case because you will be starting out at 100% and getting to your destination without charging.

If you do want to stop to charge on the way it would only be a splash and dash so again rapidgate would not come into play.

After that its down to whether you can get your hands on a s/h Ioniq (somewhat difficult) or just buy a new Leaf (should be easy to do).

Get a Leaf on loan for a w/end and try the commute. Thats the only true way to satisfy yourself.

unkel

Get both an Ioniq and a Leaf on loan to check the route and then decide for yourself what you prefer. You seem to have done your research well, but I wonder do you know that the public network has both CHAdeMO and CCS fast charging, but this network is not in a good state and is already getting congested? And that there is a private network coming that only has CCS charging (so no Leaf can charge there)? Also you can only charge 1 car at a time at the public charging network. And you will be able to charge 6 cars at a time at the private network

Also if you do stop, a "fast" charge in a Leaf from 20-80% on the current network takes 1-2 hours* and the same charge for the same range in Ioniq takes just 20 minutes (and less than 15 minutes on above private network)

* the advertising standards commission in the UK found the 1 hour for the charge that Nissan advertised misleading. It could take a lot longer. See posts above.

As KCross rightly said, if you never need a fast charge, then these slow charge times of the Leaf (google #rapidgate) and the CHAdeMO charging system and the state of the public charging network are not relevant. But if you do, Leaf wouldn not be a good choice. Neither Leaf nor Ioniq can do the 190km in winter at 120km/h on a charge. You can make it in the Leaf at about 100km/h and in Ioniq at about 110km/h rough guesses

KCross

unkel wrote: »

...And that there is a private network coming that only has CCS charging (so no Leaf can charge there)? Also you can only charge 1 car at a time at the public charging network. And you will be able to charge 6 cars at a time at the private network

Will Ionity be on his route? If not, its a bit moot.

unkel

We don't know, but the M4 on the Dublin side at least is one of the busiest motorways in the country, so I presume so. There are 9 Ionity stations planned for Ireland for the next 14 months, but only 3 planning applications have been lodged at this point afaik

Quite likely that there will be more Ionity stations after 2019, after all, this country is going EV only for all private cars over the next decade or two.

Markcheese

DrPhilG wrote: »

To expand on this, my 2014 Leaf would take almost 10 hours to charge to 100% from flat.

Given that the likes of the new Kona and e-Niro have 3 times the usable capacity of my Leaf, charging them on a 3-pin plug would be a long oul wait!

True, but an easy quick and cheap way for a lot of firms to give charging capacity at work carparks would be to stick one or two blue 15 amp weather proof plugs at carpark lampposts, if youre spending 7 or 8 hours at work, that'd give a fair boost in range, for very little complication....

grudgehugger

Mechatronical wrote: »

Hi all,

Was checking this thread out as I was hoping to get a Hyundai Kona for a company car but unfortunately it is not within our budget. 

The 2018 leaf is within the budget however I have worries about the range. I need to head from Collooney Sligo to Cellbridge once per week and return a few days later (~ 190km one way). On the brochure I have been provided it specs the current 2018 model to have 270kmh range (I assume this is with the EPA range @ 243km)

My question is this, is the current Leaf capable of making that trip in Winter (standard national road (N4) turning to motor way around Mullingar (M4)) The part of N4 around Sligo would have a few hilly parts but nothing major.

I’ve had the L40 for a few months - my first EV.

I rarely drive as far as you need to although do plan a trip to Sligo at Halloween. Athlone’s the furthest I’ve gone so far.

My guess is you could do it on a single full charge if you drive efficiently (no more than 105, no sudden changes in speed etc.)

Driving to Athlone from Greystones (156km) was grand in Summer provided I didn’t drive fast. The L40 eats battery at “normal” motorway speeds.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Also if you do stop, a "fast" charge in a Leaf from 20-80% on the current network takes 1-2 hours*

Ah here...

I'm one of the biggest #rapidgate critics on here but that's just as misleading as Nissan themselves.

I charged 10% to 80% on a 2018 Leaf in 45 minutes. Could likely have done 20-80% in below 40.

Only on a second charge are you likely to meet rapidgate. I've only seen maybe 2 examples of it happening on a first charge and both had extenuating circumstances like extremely high ambient temperatures.

DrPhilG

Markcheese wrote: »

True, but an easy quick and cheap way for a lot of firms to give charging capacity at work carparks would be to stick one or two blue 15 amp weather proof plugs at carpark lampposts, if youre spending 7 or 8 hours at work, that'd give a fair boost in range, for very little complication....

Absolutely. I've been campaigning my employer to do just that.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah here...

Did you not see the finding? 20-80% in 60 minutes was still found to be misleading. The conclusion from that finding alone is that it can take significantly longer than an hour.

This is not my opinion, or my subjective feelings. This is the finding from the Advertising Standards Agency in the UK after official complaints (which it upheld)

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Did you not see the finding? 20-80% in 60 minutes was still found to be misleading. The conclusion from that finding alone is that it can take significantly longer than an hour.

This is not my opinion, or my subjective feelings. This is the finding from the Advertising Standards Agency in the UK after official complaints (which it upheld)

The findings relate to rapidgate and the fact that under certain circumstances the 20-80 in an hour is completely wrong.

"under certain circumstances" is the key in that sentence.

Even for me with a heavy foot and high enough mileage, rapidgate would be a once or twice a year occurrence.

You are suggesting that it's the norm.

DrPhilG

To clarify that further...

Nissan say 20-80% in an hour. 95% of the time they're correct.

You say 20-80% in 1-2 hours. 95% of the time you're wrong.

Who's the one guilty of false advertising here?

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

To clarify that further...

Nissan say 20-80% in an hour. 95% of the time they're correct.

You say 20-80% in 1-2 hours. 95% of the time you're wrong.

Who's the one guilty of false advertising here?

Clearly Nissan, as per the ASA

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Clearly Nissan, as per the ASA

Wait til they get their hands on Unkel!

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

Proper scaremongering.

The odds of it happening are very small.

3 cars in front of him at Enfield

"Cathal Doyle: How I fared driving from Dublin to Mayo in an electric car"

Linky

This will become very common. It probably already is. Not scaremongering, reality.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Who's the one guilty of false advertising here?

It's not my opinion dude. I'm only reporting what was officially upheld in the UK.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

It's not my opinion dude. I'm only reporting what was officially upheld in the UK.

Nope, you said that charging 20-80% "takes 1-2 hours". Not could take, but does take.

What was upheld in the UK was that Nissans's claim of 20-80% in 60 minutes was misleading because sometimes it takes longer.

unkel

So Nissan are no longer allowed to advertise that it "only" takes an hour to charge from 20-80%

In practice it can take significantly longer. Is that better, Phil?

If we ever get someone to post a vid on youtube that in fact it took them 2 hours to charge from 20-80%, you are prepared to have to eat your hat? :pac:

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Nope, you said that charging 20-80% "takes 1-2 hours". Not could take, but does take.

What was upheld in the UK was that Nissans's claim of 20-80% in 60 minutes was misleading because sometimes it takes longer.

unkel wrote: »

So Nissan are no longer allowed to advertise that it "only" takes an hour to charge from 20-80%

In practice it can take significantly longer. Is that better, Phil?

If we ever get someone to post a vid on youtube that in fact it took them 2 hours to charge from 20-80%, you are prepared to have to eat your hat? :pac:

I think we're dealing in semantics gents.

It CAN take up to 2 hours, but it "DOESNT" because that's not everytime. It CAN also take 40 minutes

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

I think we're dealing in semantics gents.

I edited my post to take out that very word

But you are right of course. We all know what #rapidgate means in practice. I was actually quite surprised that the complaint was upheld as on far more fast charges than not would you be able to charge from 20-80% within an hour.

Old diesel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Nope, you said that charging 20-80% "takes 1-2 hours". Not could take, but does take.

What was upheld in the UK was that Nissans's claim of 20-80% in 60 minutes was misleading because sometimes it takes longer.

Yes it was the small print not bring clear enough that got Nissan.

20 to 80 percent in 60 mins wasn't exactly blown out out of it as total nonsense by the findings.

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

You were misleading unkel.
It was the usual Leaf is crap, Ioniq is brilliant stuff...

Lol, nail on the head.

I had posted that initially, that the main reason for unkel downplaying the Leaf charge times was to highlight the Ioniq's strengths but it was late and I was grouchy so I didn't want to be too confrontational.

Thanks for picking up my slack, lol.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol, nail on the head.

I had posted that initially, that the main reason for unkel downplaying the Leaf charge times was to highlight the Ioniq's strengths but it was late and I was grouchy so I didn't want to be too confrontational.

Thanks for picking up my slack, lol.

You must have been feeling a bit of nausea anyway defending the Leaf and its charge times as I dont think you have ever done that before!

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

You must have been feeling a bit of nausea anyway defending the Leaf and its charge times as I dont think you have ever done that before!

Oh I'm not defending it, just being realistic.

I wouldn't dissuade someone from buying the 40kwh Leaf because of rapidgate, I would just make sure they were aware of it and its potential implications on their use.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol, nail on the head.

You'll find he deleted his post that you quoted

What further can I say? I clarified my position a few points up. I think we all agree that:

Nissan advertised a charging time initially, which was far too optimistic. They took it upon themselves to change the charging time later to "20-80% in 60 minutes"

The ASA found that to be misleading as in practice it can take a lot longer than an hour

Everyone happy now?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

You'll find he deleted his post that you quoted

What further can I say? I clarified my position a few points up. I think we all agree that:

Which was exactly why I deleted it. There was no point further stirring things when you had clarified it.

Soarer

unkel wrote: »

3 cars in front of him at Enfield

"Cathal Doyle: How I fared driving from Dublin to Mayo in an electric car"

Linky

This will become very common. It probably already is. Not scaremongering, reality.

Completely taken out of context.

Originally you were talking about having to wait behind a load of L40s suffering from #rapidgate. This report mentions 3 cars, not L40s. Maybe they were Ioniqs!

Plus, the journo started the journey with 70%. If he'd started the journey @ 100%, he'd not have encountered the problem.

KCross

I thought it was a decent enough article and didnt make any specific mention of the Leaf other than it was one of 3 he tested.
It didnt focus on the cars but the infrastructure, which we all know is ****e. It was on point really.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

I thought it was a decent enough article and didnt make any specific mention of the Leaf other than it was one of 3 he tested.
It didnt focus on the cars but the infrastructure, which we all know is ****e. It was on point really.

Regardless of the ASA position on the rapidgate advertising, I think we can all agree that the network is crap.


The leaf is going to be more affected than most as the (sometimes) slower charging will contribute to longer dwell time at chargers, either when an L40 is charging or when it makes someone wait - which we will call the "unkel queue" :D

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

I thought it was a decent enough article and didnt make any specific mention of the Leaf other than it was one of 3 he tested.
It didnt focus on the cars but the infrastructure, which we all know is ****e. It was on point really.

The article was on point.

But Unkel using it to prove his point that you could be stuck behind slowly charging L40s was a stretch to say the least.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

3 cars in front of him at Enfield

"Cathal Doyle: How I fared driving from Dublin to Mayo in an electric car"

Linky

This will become very common. It probably already is. Not scaremongering, reality.

Why is he using the AC43 in the photo, it's a leaf?

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

Why is he using the AC43 in the photo, it's a leaf?

Great spot that.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Why is he using the AC43 in the photo, it's a leaf?

In the article he said he had to divert to a slow charger for 2hrs because the rapids were out of service... maybe thats the one he used?

Mancomb Seepgood

I note he mentioned that his fastest time to complete the journey was 4 hours 15 minutes - I wonder which car that was in?

Good article insofar as it focuses on the network,not the cars.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

In the article he said he had to divert to a slow charger for 2hrs because the rapids were out of service... maybe thats the one he used?

It's a triple header in the photo though

Mancomb Seepgood

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a triple header in the photo though

The new Leaf can slow charge from AC43,still that doesn't look like the charger in Longford though.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

It's a triple header in the photo though

Ah right, I was looking at the first pic!

Thats interesting alright. Maybe ChaDeMo wasnt working?

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

Great spot that.

Cheers. Spot the analyst! :pac::D

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

The new Leaf can slow charge from AC43,still that doesn't look like the charger in Longford though.

It can but it's a poor use of resources, unless of course the chademo was broken and he was stuck.
Looks like an MSA charger in the photo to me. I think it could be enfield, from memory, although that's not a charger I visit very often.

kennethsmyth

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ah here...

I'm one of the biggest #rapidgate critics on here but that's just as misleading as Nissan themselves.

I charged 10% to 80% on a 2018 Leaf in 45 minutes. Could likely have done 20-80% in below 40.

Only on a second charge are you likely to meet rapidgate. I've only seen maybe 2 examples of it happening on a first charge and both had extenuating circumstances like extremely high ambient temperatures.

Unkel, I also have charged from 20% to 80% in approx 35mins constantly, the 1-2 hrs you mention take a number of factors to occur for it to happen, ie most of the below together

- not starting with 100% from slowcharger
- fast driving making the battery hotter
- fast charge directly after fast driving
- driving again after the first fast charge in hot weather
- fast charge again

1-2 hour is totally misleading please be a little more realistic.

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Unkel, I also have charged from 20% to 80% in approx 35mins constantly, the 1-2 hrs you mention take a number of factors to occur for it to happen, ie most of the below together

- not starting with 100% from slowcharger
- fast driving making the battery hotter
- fast charge directly after fast driving
- driving again after the first fast charge in hot weather
- fast charge again

1-2 hour is totally misleading please be a little more realistic.

Interestingly, if the 1-2 hours was misleading to anyone other than a fanboy I'm sure the ASA would not have upheld the complaint and forced Nissan to change the ad.

unkel

Soarer wrote: »

The article was on point.

But Unkel using it to prove his point that you could be stuck behind slowly charging L40s was a stretch to say the least.

Nope. I pointed out that the guy in the article had 3 cars in front of him. This is not scaremongering, this is reality. And yes, it could be a wait of just 3 * 20 minutes. But it could also be a wait of 3 or 4 hours. Before you can even start to charge your car

Before July, we had about 3000 EVs on the road. In one month alone there were over 300 Leaf 40 added to that. And it's not just the Leaf 40 that is going to make the public charging problem a lot worse than it was last year. I only read somewhere on an Irish thread today, that someone queued behind a Jaguar i-Pace. The owner said his fast charge would take over 2 hours.

These things are the reality, not scaremongering. You can stick your head in the sand, pretending everything is fine. But it isn't and it will get a lot worse than it already is. If I see any politician canvassing, I will start two robust discussions. One about the state of the public charging network and one about the lack of a feed in tariff.

Silent Running

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Unkel, I also have charged from 20% to 80% in approx 35mins constantly, the 1-2 hrs you mention take a number of factors to occur for it to happen, ie most of the below together

- not starting with 100% from slowcharger
- fast driving making the battery hotter
- fast charge directly after fast driving
- driving again after the first fast charge in hot weather
- fast charge again

1-2 hour is totally misleading please be a little more realistic.

But, you should be able to do all those things together in a modern EV. I can, and do, without any drama at all, and still charge fully in 35 minutes.

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

But, you should be able to do all those things together in a modern EV. I can, and do, without any drama at all, and still charge fully in 35 minutes.

+1
This is the problem, it's like driving an early fossil car 100 years ago and having to watch the temperature and oil pressure and different fluids and balances etc.
Ain't nobody got no time for that. It's like the recent dublin to cork to dublin rally. I did that in the Ioniq, by the end all the leafs (the 30s and even the 24s) were slowing down because of overheating, whereas the Ioniq, like a fossil car, could have turned right around and done the trip again without issue.

You can buy a leaf 40 and if you want to drive more than 150-180 km you can do all the fettling above.
Or you can just get in and drive any other EV.

KCross

Wheee... And around and around we go!....

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Nope. I pointed out that the guy in the article had 3 cars in front of him. This is not scaremongering, this is reality. And yes, it could be a wait of just 3 * 20 minutes. But it could also be a wait of 3 or 4 hours. Before you can even start to charge your car

Before July, we had about 3000 EVs on the road. In one month alone there were over 300 Leaf 40 added to that. And it's not just the Leaf 40 that is going to make the public charging problem a lot worse than it was last year. I only read somewhere on an Irish thread today, that someone queued behind a Jaguar i-Pace. The owner said his fast charge would take over 2 hours.

These things are the reality, not scaremongering. You can stick your head in the sand, pretending everything is fine. But it isn't and it will get a lot worse than it already is. If I see any politician canvassing, I will start two robust discussions. One about the state of the public charging network and one about the lack of a feed in tariff.

I read that earlier too.
These big battery slow charging (50kW on a 90kWh battery is slow, almost 0.5C) EVs will really show up the crap network for what it is. If you think a leaf40 is bad, at least they only sometimes take that long to charge... an ipace (because they don't have a supercharger network equivalent) will hog for 2 hours every time :eek::eek:


Bring On IONITY!!!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Wheee... And around and around we go!....

I'm sorry but if someone is going to post blinded fanboy rubbish it's going to be met in kind.

kennethsmyth

ELM327 wrote: »

Interestingly, if the 1-2 hours was misleading to anyone other than a fanboy I'm sure the ASA would not have upheld the complaint and forced Nissan to change the ad.

Really Elm, "fanboy", play the ball not the man.

I have already said I own an L40, I knew of the possible issues around rapidgate, I drive my car, there are reductions in charge kw on second fast chargers.

The reality is there is no 1-2 hours (for me anyway), and Nissan was caught because they were not clear about the possibility of longer charge times than 60mins in certain circumstances.

Everybody needs to stop giving out about different EV's they all have their advantages and flaws.

Heres one of each

L40
- lot of car for price, boot size and a lovely drive
- possible rapidgate

EGolf
- solid construction, looks like normal car, comfortable
- high price

Ioniq
- great motorway distance, new chargers on the way with ionity
- rear visability, boot a little small, not a fan of the seats

i3
- looks futuristic and rear wheel drive
- high price, seats 4 and weird doors

Can we at least try to move on the conversation here and if posting in 2018 Leaf how about letting those that wish to know more or are driving one and want to ask questions have a resource as opposed the same item over and over again.

Thanks (i may have overstepped in the last paragraph but I'm just starting to get fed up on this posting when it should have a more varied discussion)

I'll give it a start - any L40 driver having difficulties with the emergency braking when passing other cars that maybe turning out of the lane you are in and car decides that the car in front is still there when its already gone?

Leroy42

4:15 to do a journey that should take 3:00. So basically totally unsuitable for long journeys.

You can't have a few kids in the back etc and tag on that additional time. And that is if everything is working.

And what do you do if the next charging point is also out of order?

That article is really scary in terms of EV usability.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Bring On IONITY!!!

That's no good to the Leaf though. And that is the only widely available budget EV you can buy in this country. The whole uptake of EVs is under threat to get even slower once this public charging time bomb explodes

I can already see the news articles "I bought an electric vehicle and had to wait 5 hours to charge"

kennethsmyth

Silent Running wrote: »

But, you should be able to do all those things together in a modern EV. I can, and do, without any drama at all, and still charge fully in 35 minutes.

I agree, you should be able to, but also exaggerating the issue is also not right.

I think Nissan should have been more forthcoming about the software cap and also should give the option for it to be removed with the battery warranty still in place. Not going to happen though.