2018 Leaf

Old diesel

A twitter L40 driver in the UK had battery issues with his car.

Had cells changed and I think his SOH went from 96 percent back up to 98 percent following cell change .

Will be really interesting to see how the taxi L40s hold up - those guys will be working the battery hard everyday

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

On course for 30% degradation before u even hit 100k miles

If degradation stays linear

I was ran out of here when I showed examples of this degradation months ago

5% loss after 24k km is worrying imo

Its not linear. Its "quick" at first and then tapers off unless you have a bad cell of course.

And LeafSpy SOH is an indication, its not entirely accurate. 100% or 95% could be the same thing for LeafSpy in that it can vary by that much week to week.

e.g. SOH tends to go up in Winter due to cold when the car's real world range goes down... go figure!


The only real SOH that matters is how far does the car go on one charge under the various driving conditions (cold, warm, surface water, windy).

grudgehugger wrote: »

Also do I need Leafspy to see SOH?

Yes.

Old diesel

If this works then one screenshot is a leafspy screenshot of a Leaf 40 with 99 percent SOH following cells been changed.

The other is owner confirming that he previously was down to 96 percent SOH

Old diesel

Sorry the leafspy didn't upload

The leaf in question must have had some weak cells if Nissan replaced them but ours doesn't appear to have any, just generic SOH/Ah slope down without a single step up. Will keep an eye on how the pack performs over the next couple of months before the 1st service at 30k.

In the picture above the pack seems very inbalanced following the replacement. Looks like the battery stats were reset back to factory default and the real SOH will calibrate itself over the next few months.

Old diesel

The owner of that Leaf has a blog and outlined his battery issues here.

thetelfords.uk/blog

Old diesel

The blog link didnt work on my phone so im going to try it on my laptop instead

https://thetelfords.uk/blog/

Key points - the chap had battery issues from reasonably early on in his L40 ownership.

The initial "issue" was that his car simply wasnt matching other L40s for range and he was having to charge earlier - this also meant he was getting rapidgate a bit earlier then normal.

When he got Leafspy - he saw the difference in some of the cells.

Took several trips to Nissan to fix the issue.

The reason i bought it up here was that his last repair - actually left the car with 99 percent battery SOH vs the 96 percent he had at an earlier stage - just with some new cells.

Which i found interesting in the context of the various reports coming in of L40s going down to 96 percent and lower SOH.

Cheers Old diesel. The UK owner's battery definitely had weak cells in it with up to 400 mV imbalance. Our car shows typically about 10 mV so our pack is well balanced in comparison. The car now reports 109.9 Ah of capacity down from about 114.8 when new. So I have apparently lost about 5 Ah which incidentally is approx. 4.3 percent of the total capacity. This ties down well with the SOH going from 99.5 % to 95.2 %

Mike9832

samih wrote: »

The capacity warranty is 8 years or 160k so could be a close call (for Nissan) unless the L40 suffers from dodgy battery condition reporting similarly to L30 which got an upgrade earlier this year.

Incidentally we need at least 60 percent SOH for a common weekly trip my wife does so will be good to go for a long time still.

That's true the warranty is very good, no reason to worry with the 8 years

Degradation might slow down too

You'll probably change for a new generation EV anyway

Real pity Nissan screwed up as Leaf40 looks good and is great to dive

Goes like a hot hatch acceleration wise

Having driven it I would say it would leave my 180bhp 1300kg Fabia RS for dead

At the moment I'm thinking holding onto this until it's fully paid (HP over 5 years, I'm a brutal saver with no patience) unless I win in a lotto or something. And that won't happen as I don't play it, lol. It does everything that we need for a daily driver, is quick and comfortable and I now have a second vehicle for the trips to abroad.

Gile_na_gile

How do you all rate the L40 as a 2019 purchase, or barely second-hand 2018 reg plate purchase vis a vis the competition in the same price range? I really like the bootspace it has but it seems it never seems to meet its WLTP range. I wonder if this means the price will come down quick as well as the L60s or similar start to sell later next year.

Gumbo

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

How do you all rate the L40 as a 2019 purchase, or barely second-hand 2018 reg plate purchase vis a vis the competition in the same price range? I really like the bootspace it has but it seems it never seems to meet its WLTP range. I wonder if this means the price will come down quick as well as the L60s or similar start to sell later next year.

What’s the WLTP range of the L40 ?

Round Cable

kceire wrote: »

What’s the WLTP range of the L40 ?

270 km WLTP, 378 km NEDC!

Gumbo

Round Cable wrote: »

270 km WLTP, 378 km NEDC!

It will do the WLTP with a small amount of careful driving.

The NEDC is fairlytale news which I’ve quoted back to Nissan on their social media ads many times.

grudgehugger

kceire wrote: »

It will do the WLTP with a small amount of careful driving.

The NEDC is fairlytale news which I’ve quoted back to Nissan on their social media ads many times.

I don’t expect my Leaf to ever do 270km on one charge - Much careful driving needed I think.

Barely got 170km last week (still very happy with car overall)

grudgehugger

grudgehugger wrote: »

I don’t expect my Leaf to ever do 270km on one charge - Much careful driving needed I think.

Barely got 170km last week (still very happy with car overall)

To clarify, I am glad I bought it. If you don’t need the extended range of the new Kona et al, the L40 is a good buy imo.

Fast charging has gone fine for me (never needed to do it twice in one day)

Gumbo

grudgehugger wrote: »

I don’t expect my Leaf to ever do 270km on one charge - Much careful driving needed I think.

Barely got 170km last week (still very happy with car overall)

That’s L30 range. Although with the cold weather I’d expect less.

icom

grudgehugger wrote: »

To clarify, I am glad I bought it. If you don’t need the extended range of the new Kona et al, the L40 is a good buy imo.

Fast charging has gone fine for me (never needed to do it twice in one day)

Seems like 'Rapidgate' has been fixed with a new Software Update:

https://insideevs.com/video-nissan-leaf-rapidgate-problem-solved/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0B7d_uxqgCul6silr500yHDraiJQ0JOngDmmwHv7X0_Ui8meixaAOE7kA

I hope we get called for the update soon !

Electric Swede's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebhC0lhF_hE&t=4s

unkel

kceire wrote: »

It will do the WLTP with a small amount of careful driving.

Not with normal driving. ADAC has tested realistic range of EVs in summer with not going over 100km/h much. Leaf 40kWh is 201km, eGolf 36kWh is also 201km and Ioniq 28kWh is 211km

You'd get less in winter. I wouldn't bank on getting much more than 170km in Leaf 2018 in winter if driven normally. Hypermiling of course gets you more. Someone got 433km in Ioniq and still had 4% range left. NEDC range is 280km. It is obviously not realistic to compare hypermile ranges of EVs as this is highly dependent on skill. What you can compare is tests carried out of the cars in identical circumstances. That's a fair comparison. That's what ADAC did and their figures look spot on to me

Linky

icom wrote: »

Seems like 'Rapidgate' has been fixed with a new Software Update:

That was posted a few posts ago

Mike9832

icom wrote: »

Seems like 'Rapidgate' has been fixed with a new Software Update:

https://insideevs.com/video-nissan-leaf-rapidgate-problem-solved/amp/?__twitter_impression=true&fbclid=IwAR0B7d_uxqgCul6silr500yHDraiJQ0JOngDmmwHv7X0_Ui8meixaAOE7kA

I hope we get called for the update soon !

Electric Swede's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebhC0lhF_hE&t=4s

Supposedly its only a fix for cars built after October from what I have read

They have a different floor layout to accommodate the larger 60kWh pack

More floor space, better cooling or something

unkel

That's interesting Thierry. Any link?

Old diesel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Supposedly its only a fix for cars built after October from what I have read

They have a different floor layout to accommodate the larger 60kWh pack

More floor space, better cooling or something

Well the electric Swedes car is very new from what I can make out.

But yer someone one Speak EV claims to have had the update retrofitted as a software update.

He reckoned that it took 2 to 3 hours and Nissan Denmark people were involved (guy is from Denmark)

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

That's interesting Thierry. Any link?

Saw a comment on mynissanleaf forum

Not sure if it's true, but guy seemed to know what he's talking about

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

Well the electric Swedes car is very new from what I can make out.

But yer someone one Speak EV claims to have had the update retrofitted as a software update.

He reckoned that it took 2 to 3 hours and Nissan Denmark people were involved (guy is from Denmark)

Probably correct too

Good news anyway

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Supposedly its only a fix for cars built after October from what I have read

They have a different floor layout to accommodate the larger 60kWh pack

More floor space, better cooling or something

I doubt it.

If there was more cooling the temp wouldnt be increasing as much. The video clearly shows that it is still heating up like before but still maintaining close to max charge rate (where before at the same temp it would be at 22kW) so thats doesnt jive with whatever you read.

Maybe the battery space has been increased too in prep for L60 but I'd say thats entirely coincidental based on the video posted.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I doubt it.

If there was more cooling the temp wouldnt be increasing as much. The video clearly shows that it is still heating up like before but still maintaining close to max charge rate (where before at the same temp it would be at 22kW) so thats doesnt jive with whatever you read.

Maybe the battery space has been increased too in prep for L60 but I'd say thats entirely coincidental based on the video posted.

Just posting what I read Cross

What's with the attitude?

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The video clearly shows that it is still heating up like before but still maintaining close to max charge rate (where before at the same temp it would be at 22kW)

Yeah, most likely Nissan just programmed the BMS to be more tolerant. If that's the case, good news for all L40 as a simple software upgrade will get rid of #rapidgate

It does make you wonder though why they chose the programming as it is in the first place. There must have been a reason for it. It also makes you wonder about how bad this upgrade will be to the battery, which already seems to suffer more from degradation than any other EV batteries on the market today. But I guess that's Nissan's problem with giving the 8 year battery warranty

If I were a L40 owner, I would be delighted. Let's hope Nissan will do a recall and fix all these cars. And at the same time make DC charging stop at 85%. No more 2.5 hours at the fast charger, boyos!

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, most likely Nissan just programmed the BMS to be more tolerant. If that's the case, good news for all L40 as a simple software upgrade will get rid of #rapidgate

It does make you wonder though why they chose the programming as it is in the first place. There must have been a reason for it. It also makes you wonder about how bad this upgrade will be to the battery, which already seems to suffer more from degradation than any other EV batteries on the market today. But I guess that's Nissan's problem with giving the 8 year battery warranty

If I were a L40 owner, I would be delighted. Let's hope Nissan will do a recall and fix all these cars. And at the same time make DC charging stop at 85%. No more 2.5 hours at the fast charger, boyos!

They'll be cheap to replace anyway

$50/kWh in 2025

https://www.envision-group.com/en/news.html

Shefwedfan

Rapidgate is boring. More interested in the WLTP
Question today, motorway, 120km non stop, would you get 200km?

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Just posting what I read Cross

What's with the attitude?

Huh? Am I not allowed contradict you or what you’ve read!

McGiver

unkel wrote:

It does make you wonder though why they chose the programming as it is in the first place. There must have been a reason for it. It also makes you wonder about how bad this upgrade will be to the battery, which already seems to suffer more from degradation than any other EV batteries on the market today. But I guess that's Nissan's problem with giving the 8 year battery warranty

Exactly. If they programmed strict limits and cutoffs it means they were afraid of degradation with higher temperatures. It means #rapidgate = very conservative battery thermal management, that's all what it was it seems...

While derestricting the thermal management fixes the rapidgate it may cause faster battery degradation.

Now, the question is - will Nissan allow/push the BMS update knowing that it may potentially lead to increased battery warranty claims? Why would they do that?

DrPhilG

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Rapidgate is boring. More interested in the WLTP
Question today, motorway, 120km non stop, would you get 200km?

Nope. Not even close.

grudgehugger

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Rapidgate is boring. More interested in the WLTP
Question today, motorway, 120km non stop, would you get 200km?

As the Doctor said, not even close.

You won’t get 200km @ 105 right now based on my experience.

Range def much better in summer (as an EV newbie, this surprised me even though I”d read about it).

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Yeah, most likely Nissan just programmed the BMS to be more tolerant. If that's the case, good news for all L40 as a simple software upgrade will get rid of #rapidgate

It does make you wonder though why they chose the programming as it is in the first place. There must have been a reason for it. It also makes you wonder about how bad this upgrade will be to the battery, which already seems to suffer more from degradation than any other EV batteries on the market today. But I guess that's Nissan's problem with giving the 8 year battery warranty

If I were a L40 owner, I would be delighted. Let's hope Nissan will do a recall and fix all these cars. And at the same time make DC charging stop at 85%. No more 2.5 hours at the fast charger, boyos!

If theyve changed the car structure by using L60 platform on a 40 - then the fix may not be retrofittable.

For example if you use an L60 floorpan - the 40 kwh pack may well have more space to fit into - so it might be that Nissan have spread the cells over a bigger area - and that allows lower temps - and thus more tolerant settings.

I am not at all convinced we have a workable fix here - definitely not for summer use anyway.

DrPhilG

Funny enough, I reckon I'd get close to the same range now in my 33kwh i3 as I would in a 40kwh Leaf. Which is pretty damning given the extra capacity of the Leaf and the i3 isn't exactly aerodynamic either.

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Question today, motorway, 120km non stop, would you get 200km?

LOL, not a chance. Today, no wind or rain and about 9C max temp. Good weather for winter weather. Just guessing here but I'd say at 120km/h GPS speed you'd get something like this:

Leaf 40kWh - 140km
eGolf 36kWh - 150km
Ioniq 28kWh - 165km

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

LOL, not a chance. Today, no wind or rain and about 9C max temp. Good weather for winter weather. Just guessing here but I'd say at 120km/h GPS speed you'd get something like this:

Leaf 40kWh - 140km
eGolf 36kWh - 150km
Ioniq 28kWh - 165km

We need minimum 60kWh+ EV's for city to city motorway driving in winter :eek:

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

We need minimum 60kWh+ EV's for city to city motorway driving in winter :eek:

I wouldn't go that far. We need decent chargers. With the new Ionity charger being built right now, I could go from Dublin to Cork and back with a 20 minute stop on both legs of the journey. I find that acceptable - and to clarify - I'd only make a trip like that once or twice a year

If you drive cross country at motorway speeds all the time, you'd need a newer generation car (not the older generation 2016 Ioniq or 2018 Leaf) like the 2018 Kona with a motorway 120km/h range of well over 300km even in winter

rolion

unkel wrote: »

LOL, not a chance. Today, no wind or rain and about 9C max temp. Good weather for winter weather. Just guessing here but I'd say at 120km/h GPS speed you'd get something like this:

Leaf 40kWh - 140km
eGolf 36kWh - 150km
Ioniq 28kWh - 165km

No offence, but respecting similar parameters, you forgot the i3, which could go...and go.. and go...

DrPhilG

rolion wrote: »

No offence, but respecting similar parameters, you forgot the i3, which could go...and go.. and go...

It could only go and go and go if it had the REx. I'd say the i3 would get about 150km at the minute on motorway speeds and on pure electric. Well technically a bit less as the REx would kick in at 6% if you ran it that low and if you did, you'd certainly need to ease up from motorway speed.

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

We need minimum 60kWh+ EV's for city to city motorway driving in winter :eek:

No....

Casati

unkel wrote: »

LOL, not a chance. Today, no wind or rain and about 9C max temp. Good weather for winter weather. Just guessing here but I'd say at 120km/h GPS speed you'd get something like this:

Leaf 40kWh - 140km
eGolf 36kWh - 150km
Ioniq 28kWh - 165km

What would the Kona be- I understood 300km no bother?

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I wouldn't go that far. We need decent chargers. With the new Ionity charger being built right now, I could go from Dublin to Cork and back with a 20 minute stop on both legs of the journey. I find that acceptable - and to clarify - I'd only make a trip like that once or twice a year

If you drive cross country at motorway speeds all the time, you'd need a newer generation car (not the older generation 2016 Ioniq or 2018 Leaf) like the 2018 Kona with a motorway 120km/h range of well over 300km even in winter

Its stopping every hour or so

Stopping every hour is a pain in the ass good network or not

Agree Kona no issue

It can go longer than most bladders

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No....

If u don't want to stop every hour or so they are

50kWh min would be ideal

Mike9832

Casati wrote: »

What would the Kona be- I understood 300km no bother?

It would

Huge battery and pretty efficient

DrPhilG

Mike9832 wrote: »

We need minimum 60kWh+ EV's

Mike9832 wrote: »

50kWh min would be ideal

40kWh, do I hear 40kWh???

Zenith74

60kWh for me for your city-to-city car, your second car can certainly be smaller, no need for all EVs to be this size.

Stopping every hour is a little too frequent I think, really would like to be able to do 1.5 minimum (so ~180km). Also for the average Joe you cannot have them arriving at 2% battery, think people need to see ~20% to feel comfortable, this also leaves room for diversions etc. Assuming you're only charging to 80% on FCPs, you've really only got 60% of your battery capacity to give you that 180km, so the car needs to have a real range of about 300km @120km/h.

Obviously this doesn't have to apply to us EV nuts who are willing to put up with stopping more regularly, having a natter at the FCP etc., but for Joe Average this is where it needs to be for me.

Water John

I think for a main EV, Kona and Niro @ 64kwh are about right, 400km/250m.

Gile_na_gile

Lads/Laddesses - More of a how challenge question than a "will it?" question I hope. L40 driving from Kildare Meath border area to South Tipp. 180km

25km on regional road
145km motorway
10k on regional roads

What sort of driving, if any, gets a Leaf to a destination charger (overnight granny cable) without stopping for a single charge with four passengers? It is within effective range of Leaf, but my guess is that it is possible if driving 105km/h on motorway, and/or taking the old road for part of the journey.
I.e. Follow M7 to N77 in Laois. Take exit 17 from M7
29 min (49.1 km)
Get on M8 from R433

Conditions: SW headwind of 20km, cold and wet, heating on low.

Mike9832

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

Lads/Laddesses - More of a how challenge question than a "will it?" question I hope. L40 driving from Kildare Meath border area to South Tipp. 180km

25km on regional road
145km motorway
10k on regional roads

What sort of driving, if any, gets a Leaf to a destination charger (overnight granny cable) without stopping for a single charge with four passengers? It is within effective range of Leaf, but my guess is that it is possible if driving 105km/h on motorway, and/or taking the old road for part of the journey.
I.e. Follow M7 to N77 in Laois. Take exit 17 from M7
29 min (49.1 km)
Get on M8 from R433

Conditions: SW headwind of 20km, cold and wet, heating on low.

Should be no prob @ 100km/h or below

Bjorn got 200km in - 2c @ 90km/h

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQansDFt-GM&feature=share