2018 Leaf

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Is that a fix, or a temporary patch? If they engineered rapidgate as a solution to worryingly high battery temperatures, won't allowing those same temperatures to continue unhindered lead to higher degradation?

Yup. It's more a "it'll be grand" fix. Worrying in a way for a battery that already seems to degrade more than any other EV battery currently on the market. But that will be Nissan's problem as the battery has an 8 year warranty.

ELM327

I wonder if the software fix coincided with the decision to not sell off the battery maker and keep it in house, reducing warranty costs!!

bp_me

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ia the Kona that hard to find though? Has the backlash over the paddy spec slowed it down, hence the rumours that a better spec will arrive later? I've heard that Hyundai Letterkenny have 2 in stock.

A work colleague has a gotten a price for kona ev with no issue. That was for a from stock car. PCP price was... ambitious.

Gile_na_gile

bp_me wrote: »

A work colleague has a gotten a price for kona ev with no issue. That was for a from stock car. PCP price was... ambitious.

Dealer told me last week there were about two in country at moment, but new stock dies trickle in. Took the demo for a spin, first time driving an EV.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

I would bet a large amount of money on there being no 251 reg VW car with a solid state battery

So would I

No new battery is on the horizon

Batteries are a very mature technology now and will be no massive leap in the next few years anyway

Its phasing out rare earth materials and getting to €50/kWh by 2025 that will be the target

The Kona EV is very spendy when you can directly compare to a petrol model. Something close to 40 k makes the PCP and HP monthly rates expensive. Even a 30k car requires a hefty deposit for a sane monthly figure.

As of the proposed rapidgate fix: The original parameters are unnecessarily restrictive between 30 and 45 degrees while still allowing the battery temperature to soar to red on the second or third charge of the day. The modified software appear to rely more on the actual battery temperature during the charge instead of slowing down the rate of charge artificially based on the initial temperature. Once the temperature gets to over 50 during a charge I'm sure there are measures to avoid going to red. But it will allow a quick second topup from say 10 percent to 50 percent or more allowing L40 drivers to get a good topup quickly but vacate the charger after the rate goes down (and probably to even lower rate as with the current rapidgate) instead of having a slow rate from the start making everybody behind them to wait for hours.

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I wonder if the software fix coincided with the decision to not sell off the battery maker and keep it in house, reducing warranty costs!!

They are still selling, the first company pulled out, the new buyer is Envision Energy (Chinese) and is expected to finish the purchase in March.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

They are still selling, the first company pulled out, the new buyer is Envision Energy (Chinese) and is expected to finish the purchase in March.

The CEO of Envision reckons they can get to €50/KWh in 5 years and €100/kWh next year

unkel

samih wrote: »

it will allow a quick second topup from say 10 percent to 50 percent or more allowing L40 drivers to get a good topup quickly but vacate the charger after the rate goes down

If only they did. There seems to be a new generation of EV owners out there, who are oblivious to charging etiquette (unlike yourself of course and the vast majority of people posting here)

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

getting to €50/kWh by 2025 that will be the target

That and mass manufacturing would mean a budget say 45kWh EV will be cheaper to make than an ICE even if all incentives are cancelled

If they can produce enough of them, the whole world will go EV within years. Some people still buying brand new diesels will be very sorry.

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

That and mass manufacturing would mean a budget say 45kWh EV will be cheaper to make than an ICE even if all incentives are cancelled

If they can produce enough of them, the whole world will go EV within years. Some people still buying brand new diesels will be very sorry.

My happy with diesel for now brother concedes that diesel will feel old fashioned in a few years.

He also would like more diversity of choice - ie if/when he goes EV in the future he wants something equivalent to his Superb in terms of space, comfort etc

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

So would I

No new battery is on the horizon

Batteries are a very mature technology now and will be no massive leap in the next few years anyway

Its phasing out rare earth materials and getting to €50/kWh by 2025 that will be the target

VW have already invested in a solid battery company and they released a battery plan which included solid state for 2025.





http://www.thedrive.com/tech/23586/volkswagen-invests-100-million-in-solid-state-battery-firm-quantumscape

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

My happy with diesel for now brother concedes that diesel will feel old fashioned in a few years.

He also would like more diversity of choice - ie if/when he goes EV in the future he wants something equivalent to his Superb in terms of space, comfort etc

I keep getting told I am wrong. is the Superb the equivalent of the Passat?



I don't keep up to date with Skoda :P

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't keep up to date with Skoda :P

Why not? Exactly the same as Audi and Volkswagen, but slightly cheaper materials used and slightly cheaper to buy

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Why not? Exactly the same as Audi and Volkswagen, but slightly cheaper materials used and slightly cheaper to buy

haha....I don't know which Skoda is supposed to be the equivalent of its premium rival :P is Superb a Passat just with all the good stuff taken out?

In regards to Stuff, I mean thing like comfy seats, noise reduction etc

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

haha....I don't know which Skoda is supposed to be the equivalent of its premium rival :P is Superb a Passat just with all the good stuff taken out?

In regards to Stuff, I mean thing like comfy seats, noise reduction etc

You've obviously never been in an L&K spec superb so :pac:
But as this is the Leaf thread in the EV forum I'll digress.

Shefwedfan

Sorry was trying to wind people up :-)

The VW Neo is the interior of the Passat according to reports. If the Passat is the same as Superb in terms of interior space it might be options

I got there in end....

KCross

liamog wrote: »

They are still selling, the first company pulled out, the new buyer is Envision Energy (Chinese) and is expected to finish the purchase in March.

The interesting thing there is that Nissan are retaining 25% so it makes you wonder if the deal includes Nissan continuing to use AESC batteries for X years?

Maybe they will continue with AESC for L40 and LG Chem for L60.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

If only they did. There seems to be a new generation of EV owners out there, who are oblivious to charging etiquette (unlike yourself of course and the vast majority of people posting here)

This is turning to another charging for charging thread but with L40 you could in the future (after the proposed rapidgate update and introduction of per minute charging, both which are my speculation at this stage) get into situation where if would cost 4 yoyo for first half of the battery and then say another 12 yoyo from 50->90+ percent. If you could get home by charging for 10 minutes and pay for 1 euro at the station and then do a full charge there at night rates for less than 3 yoyo you would do that instead of staying for 1:20 and paying EUR 16.

Imagine the bliss where it would make sense to vacate the charger immediately when you have enough range either to complete the journey or go to the next charger on the route while staying at the fast charging zone of your car.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

The interesting thing there is that Nissan are retaining 25% so it makes you wonder if the deal includes Nissan continuing to use AESC batteries for X years?

Maybe they will continue with AESC for L40 and LG Chem for L60.

That is the most like scenario as it won't make sense for the LG to supply the L40 when there are plenty of good enough and available AESC cells in volume and manufactured next door of each of the LEAF assembly locations.

Water John

Li ion tech is fairly mature but as we have seen in the last couple of years they are being continuously tweaked with improvement. Alongside that many other avenues of research, are pushing on too alt materials, density and fast charging capabilities. These will yield results.

icom

Teslabjorn will test a Leaf 40 tomorrow with the software update that addresses the 'Rapidgate' issue.

Quote "Tomorrow I will live stream while I test the updated Nissan Leaf 40 kWh. This one was delivered October 2018. The owner claims that it doesn't rapidgate as much as the earlier car he borrowed before."

He will also post a video later tomorrow with a summary of the test.

Mike9832

icom wrote: »

Teslabjorn will test a Leaf 40 tomorrow with the software update that addresses the 'Rapidgate' issue.

Quote "Tomorrow I will live stream while I test the updated Nissan Leaf 40 kWh. This one was delivered October 2018. The owner claims that it doesn't rapidgate as much as the earlier car he borrowed before."

He will also post a video later tomorrow with a summary of the test.

Has anyone tested it on the early Leaf40 with that software update?

October on cars supposedly have the Leaf60 floor plan

ELM327

icom wrote: »

Teslabjorn will test a Leaf 40 tomorrow with the software update that addresses the 'Rapidgate' issue.

Quote "Tomorrow I will live stream while I test the updated Nissan Leaf 40 kWh. This one was delivered October 2018. The owner claims that it doesn't rapidgate as much as the earlier car he borrowed before."

He will also post a video later tomorrow with a summary of the test.

Can't watch the live stream as I will be in work but will watch the summary video with interest.
Would like to know details. Assuming it's just a software fix (allowing the car to maintain higher DC speeds at high battery temps) there will be a massive knock on effect on the SOH.


If it's just for new cars, and not offered to existing ones, perhaps they have quietly added active cooling (air cooling similar to Ioniq/Zoe would suffice in all liklihood)

Old diesel

icom wrote: »

Teslabjorn will test a Leaf 40 tomorrow with the software update that addresses the 'Rapidgate' issue.

Quote "Tomorrow I will live stream while I test the updated Nissan Leaf 40 kWh. This one was delivered October 2018. The owner claims that it doesn't rapidgate as much as the earlier car he borrowed before."

He will also post a video later tomorrow with a summary of the test.

He is at the 2nd charge as we speak.

For testing purposes he stopped the charge at 38 degrees battery tempreture.

Got 40 kw on restarting.

He again stopped the charge at 41 degrees battery temperature and got 38 kw.

So so far so good.

However the car he is testing also has bad cell balance - 30 MV on Leafspy.

He's done around 250 kms.

Edit - it's also VERY cold though - it's -7 and his battery temperature was at 19 degrees before first charge.

Last I saw it was at 44 degrees battery temperature at 60 percent soc (leafspy) on the 2nd charge.

beauf

Whats bad cell balance?

icom

beauf wrote: »

Whats bad cell balance?

This explains it well, about 4 minutes in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRPze4f0gsQ

Old diesel

Bjorn now at 3rd charge....

Battery temp around 41 degrees.

40 kw charging speed.

However he considers temperature behaviour as similar to the original L40 set up so indicative of software change only.

Car still needs to be babied.

Ambient temp around -1.

He managed to lose 6 degrees battery temp on the journey between 2nd and 3rd charge.

I'm not following the stream all the time as these streams are really data heavy.

So might be picking it up wrong

Old diesel

He appears to have stopped and restarted the charge as the car has dropped to 32 kw now but car still only at 37 percent soc.

Battery temp was up to 45 degrees.

So rapidgate throttling still a feature - Nissan just making the tolerances a bit more generous.

Edit at 47 degrees battery temp Bjorn stopped and restarted charge and speed dropped to around 26/27 kw.

So yes we still have rapidgate - just a bit later and less severe then before

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

He appears to have stopped and restarted the charge as the car has dropped to 32 kw now but car still only at 37 percent soc.

Jesus. That means it would probably still take 2 hours from empty to full on a fast charger, unfortunately something that is quite common for L40 owners in this country to do

Big improvement though for considerate L40 owners who just want to charge it up enough so they can get to their destination. And of course for the EV owners waiting at the chargers behind them...

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Jesus. That means it would probably still take 2 hours from empty to full on a fast charger, unfortunately something that is quite common for L40 owners in this country to do

Needs to be down to under 20 kw to hit 2 hours imo.

They will hit 80 percent in 1 hr 20 mins at a flat 22 kw charge.

32 kw will be closer to 1 hour.

But as Bjorn himself was pointing out to someone in the livestream - that 3rd charge rapidgate was provoked by him deliberately stopping and restarting for testing purposes.

You'd normally start that charge and keep going at whatever speed.

Still not good enough.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Jesus. That means it would probably still take 2 hours from empty to full on a fast charger, unfortunately something that is quite common for L40 owners in this country to do

Big improvement though for considerate L40 owners who just want to charge it up enough so they can get to their destination. And of course for the EV owners waiting at the chargers behind them...

I think you might have misinterpreted it.

The charge rate at the start of the session is maintained until well into the charge cycle and that initial charge rate is dependent on the battery temp at the time the charge session starts. The throttling after that is just normal charge curve throttling as you hit higher SoC, not temp related.

In Bjorns test he is restarting the charge session multiple times during the one rapid charge to see what the new charge rate would be IF that was the temp you arrived at the charger. Its useful data but not what people will see in our climate.

It looks to me like rapidgate wont be an issue in our climate with this s/w update but we need to see an equivalent summer test.

It does look though like it will be 3rd rapid charge of the day before you see serious throttling (rare that you would need 3 rapids in a day in this country) and even then its not the previous scenario where it went down to 22kW, its still in the mid 30s.

Anything below 41ºC and you get full charge rate. At 41ºC before you were getting 22kW! Massive improvement.

Now, if I was a taxi driver or if I was in a hot climate I'd still be very worried particularly what effect it has on degradation for them. For everyone else I dont think it will affect them.

Old diesel

Bjorn at 4th charge

Charge rate 29 kw

470 kms done in 8 hours.

Hes probably going to end the stream at the charger.

Looks like the main improvement is in the 35 to 41 degree battery temperature range with perhaps a smaller (7 kw faster) at 45 degrees

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

I think you might have misinterpreted it.

The charge rate at the start of the session is maintained until well into the charge cycle and that initial charge rate is dependent on the battery temp at the time the charge session starts. The throttling after that is just normal charge curve throttling as you hit higher SoC, not temp related.

In Bjorns test he is restarting the charge session multiple times during the one rapid charge to see what the new charge rate would be IF that was the temp you arrived at the charger. Its useful data but not what people will see in our climate.

It looks to me like rapidgate wont be an issue in our climate with this s/w update but we need to see an equivalent summer test.

It does look though like it will be 3rd rapid charge of the day before you see serious throttling (rare that you would need 3 rapids in a day in this country) and even then its not the previous scenario where it went down to 22kW, its still in the mid 30s.

Anything below 41ºC and you get full charge rate. At 41ºC before you were getting 22kW! Massive improvement.

Now, if I was a taxi driver or if I was in a hot climate I'd still be very worried particularly what effect it has on degradation for them. For everyone else I dont think it will affect them.

Yeah it's not an issue anymore for us here

Great news as Leaf40 is great to drive

Anyone that experiences rapidgate situations with multiple rapid chargers in a day should be in a long range Kona or Tesla, only themselves to blame

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

Bjorn at 4th charge

Charge rate 29 kw

470 kms done in 8 hours.

Hes probably going to end the stream at the charger.

Looks like the main improvement is in the 35 to 41 degree battery temperature range with perhaps a smaller (7 kw faster) at 45 degrees

From what I remember...

With fix
- Upto 41ºC full charge rate
- 45ºC = 30kW
- 47ºC = 27kW

Without fix
- 30ºC = 39kW
- 36ºC = 33kW
- 40ºC = 28kW
- 45ºC = 22kW


So they are still protecting the battery above 47ºC but letting you have a full speed 2nd rapid charge which should cover the majority of peoples issues with rapidgate.

It would of course all have been much better if they just stuck a fan in there in the first place!

unkel

I didn't watch it my bad. KCross thanks for explaining.

Great improvement for L40 owners, but it still leaves the tapering starting well before the end and ending in just 1kW charging at 99%, so a full charge still takes a very long time (about 2 hours) even under perfect circumstances. Most owners won't hog the charger that long, but some ignorant fookers do.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

I didn't watch it my bad. KCross thanks for explaining.

Great improvement for L40 owners, but it still leaves the tapering starting well before the end and ending in just 1kW charging at 99%, so a full charge still takes a very long time (about 2 hours) even under perfect circumstances. Most owners won't hog the charger that long, but some ignorant fookers do.

Unfortunately that early tapering is in all Leaf’s, not just the L40!

All rapids should auto disconnect below 20kW. The Ioniq does it right and auto disconnects itself at 94%.

The big question now is, will Nissan apply this fix to existing L40’s as they come in for their first service, not just for the owners sake but also for everyone else who is queuing behind them.

Hopefully it’s not just for new cars.

kennethsmyth

I wouldn’t put much hope on Nissan to apply this fix on previous L40s if there is a change to the battery case size as I’ve contacted Nissan Ireland twice about a software update in the last few days and they deny any update is available. I’m not going to let it lie though and will keep pushing them as I would request other leaf drivers to do also.

Email customer.service@nissan.ie to see if we can push for this asap.

This is what I received from Nissan.

“Dear Mr Smyth,

As previously advised there are no software updates available for the Nissan Leaf to increase the rapid charge time after multiple successive quick charges.

When doing one or two successive quick charging (50kW) procedures, the 2018 Nissan LEAF will typically take 40-60 mins to charge from 20% to 80%. The LEAF has charging safeguards to protect the battery during repeated fast charging sessions in a short period of time. The time taken for additional quick charging (3+ successive procedures) can take longer if the battery temperature activates the battery safeguarding technology.

Hope to have informed you sufficiently.

Yours Sincerely,
Nissan Ireland Aftersales Team“

KCross

You should send them the two videos and ask them to stop bluffing. Clearly they have changed it.

If they say it’s tied to other hardware changes then fair enough but I doubt it is, based on the fact the temp still rises as before.

It’s also possible that Nissan Ireland don’t have a clue and it’s just a case of computer says no.

Nissan UK are likely to give a more informed response. Let’s see what happens on the UK forum as they will likely try a retrospective update first.

Water John

Same as any big co, brazen it out, rather than fessing up.

Old diesel

I think this test by Bjorn is the first time I've seen someone get 29 kw at the FOURTH charge on an L40

A few guys have tried splash and dash but I'm not sure they were still getting 29 kw at the fourth charge

Like I said to someone on twitter last week the big test will be what happens if in 30 degrees ambient you drive 70 mph down the motorway to the first charge.

Battery temperature under pressure - hot day and hard driving.

Previously that would mean a first charge rapidgate and tbh I'd say still will.

Thing to remember is that on this test Bjorn arrived at 1st chathe at 19 degrees.

In summer that could so easily be 28 degrees which I think will push you closer to the dreaded 50 degrees plus battery temps sooner.

I still want to know if the trigger point for reduced power mode is still 56 degrees.

Because for me that reduced power is far more annoying then the main charge speed issue

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

I still want to know if the trigger point for reduced power mode is still 56 degrees.

I’d guess yes for that based on Bjorns test.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

I think this test by Bjorn is the first time I've seen someone get 29 kw at the FOURTH charge on an L40

And we rejoice and think that's a major improvement. 29kW and only if you baby it...

New EVs coming out now should charge all day and all night at 100kW, preferably 150kW. In all circumstances. In hot weather after driving hard for 12 hours. That's we should aim for.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

And we rejoice and think that's a major improvement. 29kW and only if you baby it...

New EVs coming out now should charge all day and all night at 100kW, preferably 150kW. In all circumstances. In hot weather after driving hard for 12 hours. That's we should aim for.

+1
It's better than it was, but still crap. Considering the tech exists now on the likes of Ioniq that can charge at 70kW all day without issue due to active cooling.

KCross wrote: »

From what I remember...

With fix
- Upto 41ºC full charge rate
- 45ºC = 30kW
- 47ºC = 27kW

Without fix
- 30ºC = 39kW
- 36ºC = 33kW
- 40ºC = 28kW
- 45ºC = 22kW


So they are still protecting the battery above 47ºC but letting you have a full speed 2nd rapid charge which should cover the majority of peoples issues with rapidgate.

It would of course all have been much better if they just stuck a fan in there in the first place!

Would like to know the basis for the change - ie have they used existing owners as a test bed and seen no impact in the degradation in the 30-41 degrees range?

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
It's better than it was, but still crap. Considering the tech exists now on the likes of Ioniq that can charge at 70kW all day without issue due to active cooling.

True, it could be alot better but full charge speed for the first two rapids is all most people will need.
Its more than adequate, particularly for our climate.
I'd still have reservations about how it will behave in hot climates.

ELM327 wrote: »

Would like to know the basis for the change - ie have they used existing owners as a test bed and seen no impact in the degradation in the 30-41 degrees range?

Very unlikely they used existing customers.
Degradation due to high temp would also be a "slow" process. We probably wont know for a year or two and how often will the majority be multiple rapid charging per day anyway to cause 50ºC in the battery?

If you only do one rapid a day (which means you are covering some serious mileage per year) it will have no effect and I think most people will only be using rapids for occasional long journeys.

So, I think, as Bjorn said, what people want is fast charging when they need it and this fix gives them that.

It will be interesting what they implement for the L60. If they make a mess of that there is no hope for Nissan. There is talk its going to be air cooled, not liquid!

Bjorn's edited video here:

Mike9832

Is is confirmed to work for pre October Leaf40?

Haven't seen any older ones with software update?

ELM327

Nissan have (in true nissan style) denied there is any software update.
Let's change #rapidgate to #denialgate

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I wouldn’t put much hope on Nissan to apply this fix on previous L40s if there is a change to the battery case size as I’ve contacted Nissan Ireland twice about a software update in the last few days and they deny any update is available. I’m not going to let it lie though and will keep pushing them as I would request other leaf drivers to do also.

Email customer.service@nissan.ie to see if we can push for this asap.

This is what I received from Nissan.

“Dear Mr Smyth,

As previously advised there are no software updates available for the Nissan Leaf to increase the rapid charge time after multiple successive quick charges.

When doing one or two successive quick charging (50kW) procedures, the 2018 Nissan LEAF will typically take 40-60 mins to charge from 20% to 80%. The LEAF has charging safeguards to protect the battery during repeated fast charging sessions in a short period of time. The time taken for additional quick charging (3+ successive procedures) can take longer if the battery temperature activates the battery safeguarding technology.

Hope to have informed you sufficiently.

Yours Sincerely,
Nissan Ireland Aftersales Team“

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Is is confirmed to work for pre October Leaf40?

Not yet tried. Should be some coming in for their first service in the next few week so I’m sure we’ll start hearing soon whether Nissan are allowing it to be added to existing cars.

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

True, it could be alot better but full charge speed for the first two rapids is all most people will need.
Its more than adequate, particularly for our climate.
I'd still have reservations about how it will behave in hot climates.






Very unlikely they used existing customers.
Degradation due to high temp would also be a "slow" process. We probably wont know for a year or two and how often will the majority be multiple rapid charging per day anyway to cause 50ºC in the battery?

If you only do one rapid a day (which means you are covering some serious mileage per year) it will have no effect and I think most people will only be using rapids for occasional long journeys.

So, I think, as Bjorn said, what people want is fast charging when they need it and this fix gives them that.

It will be interesting what they implement for the L60. If they make a mess of that there is no hope for Nissan. There is talk its going to be air cooled, not liquid!

Bjorn's edited video here:

Why did they not look at Renault thinking on battery cooling for the L40 in the first place given that Renault and themselves are the one outfit essentially.

Like they will use a Renault diesel engine in a Quasqui - so why not use Renault solutions in a Leaf (cooling wise)

KCross

Who knows!
This u turn to patch the L40 shows they have seriously misjudged the market. Hopefully they’ve learned what people need.

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind and thinking that translates to the rest of the world.