2018 Leaf

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind

That's an interesting thought. Carlos Ghosn had been heading the alliance for a long time at that stage and he was the big force behind the development of the Leaf, with global sales in mind. And Renault (or European influences) are the main force in the alliance, the Japanese play second fiddle

Initial production of the Leaf was in Japan, but very soon after there were more of them made in the US than in Europe + Japan together

So I guess based on that, I think we can dismiss the idea the Leaf was designed for the Japanese market?

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

Who knows!
This u turn to patch the L40 shows they have seriously misjudged the market. Hopefully they’ve learned what people need.

Sometimes I think Nissan have designed the Leaf with local, low speed Japanese customers in mind and thinking that translates to the rest of the world.

The mess up was/is most likely a "most drivers do under x amount of miles a day acoording to our research" one.

Can't rule out the Japanese thing either but the miles per day calculation seems more plausible imo.

Ironically designing for local conditions may well be why the Zoe had good cooling even in 22 kwh form given that France can get very toasty ambient Temps in sunmer.

Edit - if Nissan worked from historical data - they have failed to allow for users of the bigger battery pack seeking to do longer journeys.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's an interesting thought. Carlos Ghosn had been heading the alliance for a long time at that stage and he was the big force behind the development of the Leaf, with global sales in mind. And Renault (or European influences) are the main force in the alliance, the Japanese play second fiddle

Initial production of the Leaf was in Japan, but very soon after there were more of them made in the US than in Europe + Japan together

So I guess based on that, I think we can dismiss the idea the Leaf was designed for the Japanese market?

Well, the Leaf was designed in Japan (presumably?) and that design is still in play today in the drivetrain. AFAIK its the very same motor in the L24 and L40 just that they have upped its output. Alot of other non-EV parts in the L40 are identical to the L24 so its reasonable to say the L40 is really a 2010 design from Japan.

So I dont think it matters where the majority of the sales are.... its where the design was done.

The reason why I mention local Japan conditions is that they have, generally, much slower speed limits and the Leaf is certainly designed with lower speed in mind.... <100km/h is its sweet spot and Nissan have designed the drivetrain (specifically the motor windings) for that... hence why its not as good as the Ioniq at 120km/h.

If you were a German automaker you wouldnt be designing for <100km/h.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

The mess up was/is most likely a "most drivers do under x amount of miles a day acoording to our research" one.

Can't rule out the Japanese thing either but the miles per day calculation seems more plausible imo.

Thats what I mean. In Japan they drive slower and not as far as parts of the US and Europe and they've designed around that.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Well, the Leaf was designed in Japan (presumably?)

Presumably.

My point is though that Ghosn would have had a heavy hand in overlooking the process. He is the visionary - back in the mid 00s saw that all cars would go EV. Because they just had to be zero emissions with the upcoming explosion of car ownership in third world countries. I doubt Ghosn would have had any time for design arguments in favour of the Japanese market. I'd say the way the Leaf ended up was just a product of the time. Not as aerodynamic as could have been and EV drivetrains were just not mass produced at the time, so couldn't possibly be as efficient as they have become today

Maybe someone knows more of the intricacies here. I see cros13 is posting today!

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Presumably.

My point is though that Ghosn would have had a heavy hand in overlooking the process. He is the visionary - back in the mid 00s saw that all cars would go EV. Because they just had to be zero emissions with the upcoming explosion of car ownership in third world countries. I doubt Ghosn would have had any time for design arguments in favour of the Japanese market. I'd say the way the Leaf ended up was just a product of the time. Not as aerodynamic as could have been and EV drivetrains were just not mass produced at the time, so couldn't possibly be as efficient as they have become today

Maybe someone knows more of the intricacies here. I see cros13 is posting today!

Carlos also oversaw rapidgate so I’m not buying into the Ghosn wouldn’t have allowed it argument!!

McGiver

unkel wrote:

5. Cost price difference - EVs are already pretty much on a par with ICE cars because of the €10k subsidy. I paid €25k on the road for my high spec family sized EV two years ago. And of course fuel costs 80-90% less than ICE, tax is cheapest, almost zero maintenance, up to 75% discount on tolls, etc.

Hang on - 10k subsidy? Have they doubled it in this budget? I've been calling for that but I thought that this year's budget was quite disappointing re EV transition subsidies.

slave1

He includes the €5k VRT exemption in the €10k subsidy quoted

kennethsmyth

Just received this back from Nissan Irelan

(apologies Nissan I was a bit overbearing in my response to original feedback to whether there was an update due - however it got results!)

"
Nissan Ireland (Nissan Ireland)

Jan 11, 11:46 GMT

Dear Mr Smyth,

Please accept our apologies for the delay in replying to your email.

We have been investigating the matter further with Nissan Europe and have just been advised that there is a software update now available for the ZE1 Nissan Leaf. We will advise your Nissan dealer accordingly of this update and they will contact you directly to make arrangements for the software in your Leaf to be updated.

We hope the above information meets with your approval.

Assuring you of our best attention at all times.

Yours sincerely,
Nissan Ireland Aftersales Team"

So it looks like this is going to happen, yippee, I don't fast charge in a row that many times but when I do I need as much as I can get in the shortest time.

My fully loaded journey to Cork with roofrack etc looks like will not have as bad charging on charge number 3 (estimate at 100km with bikes on roof at present is 235 wh/km - but still testing)

Hope this is of help:D

unkel

That's great news for L40 owners. Looks like the update is available for all users and it will (hopefully) shortly be issued as an official recall. Thanks for sharing kennethsmyth!

slave1

It's 2019 though, that/any software update should be available OTA rather than dragging into a dealer

ethernet

slave1 wrote: »

It's 2019 though, that/any software update should be available OTA rather than dragging into a dealer

Agreed. Who else does OTA updates apart from Tesla?

catharsis

ethernet wrote: »

Agreed. Who else does OTA updates apart from Tesla?

both Audi and Jaguar have confirmed OTA updates for iPace and ETron respectively. No idea about any others....

unkel

Not Hyundai. The cars don't even have built in sims. You can update the software yourself though, but you'll probably invalidate the warranty

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Not Hyundai. The cars don't even have built in sims. You can update the software yourself though, but you'll probably invalidate the warranty

There's no record kept of software updates. No dealer will know when and how your car was updated, therefore no warranty issues.

unkel

What if you brick it though?

I update firmware in all sorts of equipment nearly on a daily basis and have done for decades. But with my €25k Ioniq, I'd rather go to the dealer and have them do it for free under warranty

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

What if you brick it though?

I update firmware in all sorts of equipment nearly on a daily basis and have done for decades. But with my €25k Ioniq, I'd rather go to the dealer and have them do it for free under warranty

I'll carry this on in the Ioniq thread. You know how sensitive some people are. :P

kennethsmyth

I'm now booked into Nissan to get the software update next thursday, I'll keep a screenshot of all the codes on the centre screen along with screenshots of ecu codes from leafspy prior and after the update.

Won't be able to test straight away but will try as soon as possible.

ELM327

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I'm now booked into Nissan to get the software update next thursday, I'll keep a screenshot of all the codes on the centre screen along with screenshots of ecu codes from leafspy prior and after the update.

Won't be able to test straight away but will try as soon as possible.

A photo before and after of the diagnostic screen hidden menu would be brilliant, as you could see exactly what was updated!

(Bjorn did a video recently on how to access this in an L40)

Soarer

Don't know if Bjorn did a dedicated video to access the hidden menu, but it's 13 minutes in on this one.

ELM327

Yes that's the video I meant, Soarer.
Thanks for the direct link. Would be very helpful if we could see what the versions were (or even simply what was changed) in that menu.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

A photo before and after of the diagnostic screen hidden menu would be brilliant, as you could see exactly what was updated!

(Bjorn did a video recently on how to access this in an L40)

I think the screen on the TCU in the car itself gives infotainment versions and what not, they dont relate to the update for the BMS so it wont tell you anything.

I think the one you need to capture is the "ECU Versions" screen in the Service menu in LeafSpy, not the car.

Specifically what you need to see is the before and after version for the "HV BATTERY" but a full screendump would be useful in case they update other stuff too.

It should have a "C" at the end like this... 5SH2C
If its A or B it doesnt have the fix.

kennethsmyth

Presently I am on 5SH4A for the EV/HEV, I expect this to change.

Soarer

Bjorn's "ITM Configuration Part Number" from the video above is 5SH6A.

Don't know how that corresponds to yours @kennethsmyth.

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

Bjorn's "ITM Configuration Part Number" from the video above is 5SH6A.

Don't know how that corresponds to yours @kennethsmyth.

Thats for something entirely different though.... ITM... whatever that is.

No harm I suppose to take screenshots of those screens as well before and after to see if they update those versions too (SatNav, bluetooth updates etc).

But for the rapidgate update its the HV BATTERY version you need to focus on.

Gile_na_gile

Some goss on the UK forum that the charging update is now available in Ireland, but not in the UK. Perhaps they are testing it on us, first?

https://www.speakev.com/threads/leaf-40-software-upgrade.124948/page-10

I will ask the dealer if it is available before picking up the L40.

kennethsmyth

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

Some goss on the UK forum that the charging update is now available in Ireland, but not in the UK. Perhaps they are testing it on us, first?

https://www.speakev.com/threads/leaf-40-software-upgrade.124948/page-10

I will ask the dealer if it is available before picking up the L40.

Ha ha, I'm the kenster op in that thread too!

kennethsmyth

Ok - my leaf L40 (ZE1) has been updated.

There seems to be only one different code and relates to the HV Battery.

You cannot check this with the hidden menu in the car you will need leafspy.

Originally for a March / April car 2018

5SH2A 0728 HV BATTERY

Now

5SH2C 0731 HV BATTERY

I unfortunately won't be able to test the fast charging for a while unless the wife gives me a free day!

KCross

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Ok - my leaf L40 (ZE1) has been updated.

There seems to be only one different code and relates to the HV Battery.

You cannot check this with the hidden menu in the car you will need leafspy.

Originally for a March / April car 2018

5SH2A 0728 HV BATTERY

Now

5SH2C 0731 HV BATTERY

I unfortunately won't be able to test the fast charging for a while unless the wife gives me a free day!

That looks spot on.

I think Nissan have also said that any cars manufactured after May 2018 have the fix already, so it does look like they addressed it quickly enough but didnt communicate it out.

Probably a combination of them wanting to keep their heads down and not admitting fault and wanting to see how the fix would work in the real world before rolling it out to the dealers.

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

That looks spot on.

I think Nissan have also said that any cars manufactured after May 2018 have the fix already, so it does look like they addressed it quickly enough but didnt communicate it out.

Probably a combination of them wanting to keep their heads down and not admitting fault and wanting to see how the fix would work in the real world before rolling it out to the dealers.

What I don't understand is why it took until November/December before people started reporting an improvement.

These cars should have been in the field during the summer as they were being delivered.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

What I don't understand is why it took until November/December before people started reporting an improvement.

These cars should have been in the field during the summer as they were being delivered.

I think the earliest report so far is from an Aug built car having the fix.
And presumably the cars take time to come off the line and into a customers hands (not several months of course).

And the reality is that most people dont hit rapidgate in any case so they wouldnt notice whether they have the fix or not.

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

What I don't understand is why it took until November/December before people started reporting an improvement.

These cars should have been in the field during the summer as they were being delivered.

Probably because most Leaf's never would and never will have an issue with rapidgate


You could buy a Leaf in 5 years time and unless Nissan do the update it might never get done on the car. Plsu the original owner/owners would never have experienced the issue

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Probably because most Leaf's never would and never will have an issue with rapidgate

I guess a lot of Leafs would be second family cars / commuting cars that might never need any fast charging. Never mind 2 fast charges in one day.

Still a major relief for most owners I would say as the second hand value should remain stronger now the car can no longer be derided as being just a city car really.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

I guess a lot of Leafs would be second family cars / commuting cars that might never need any fast charging. Never mind 2 fast charges in one day.

Still a major relief for most owners I would say as the second hand value should remain stronger now the car can no longer be derided as being just a city car really.

I doubt it would dramtically affect second hand price....


The Leaf Gen 1 with its "bad" battery is still holding it values

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I doubt it would dramtically affect second hand price....


The Leaf Gen 1 with its "bad" battery is still holding it values

That one might have a small battery, but it's not a city car

nkay1985

Hi all. I've essentially made this same post on the Ionic thread so sorry if some see it as duplication but I'm going to be changing my car sometime in the next 6 months and always said I'd consider electric the next time I was changing so dipping my toe in the water at the moment. My current car is a 161 Seat Leon FR shop, if I was buying bg a new one of those, I'd be looking at around the €28k mark. This seems to put me in and around the range for a Leaf or an Ionic. Can anybody who decided to go for a Leaf outline any of the main reasons for choosing one over the likes of an Ionic?

The Leaf definitely has more name recognition so, for me, you usually pay more for this, which would lead me to wonder about the value for money from the Leaf - hence why my last three cars have been Seats and not Volkswagens!

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

kennethsmyth

nkay1985 wrote: »

Hi all. I've essentially made this same post on the Ionic thread so sorry if some see it as duplication but I'm going to be changing my car sometime in the next 6 months and always said I'd consider electric the next time I was changing so dipping my toe in the water at the moment. My current car is a 161 Seat Leon FR shop, if I was buying bg a new one of those, I'd be looking at around the €28k mark. This seems to put me in and around the range for a Leaf or an Ionic. Can anybody who decided to go for a Leaf outline any of the main reasons for choosing one over the likes of an Ionic?

The Leaf definitely has more name recognition so, for me, you usually pay more for this, which would lead me to wonder about the value for money from the Leaf - hence why my last three cars have been Seats and not Volkswagens!

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

My main reasons I went for the leaf was:

Boot size ( have 2 kids under 4) so larger boot important

As this was my first electric car I was decided to go with a proven manufacturer of electric, Ioniq is excellent also but Nissan have been making them since 2010

Acceleration, the leaf is faster to accelerate but tops out at 151km, Ioniq is better at motorway driving but both get about same distance. When not on motorway leaf goes further.

Epedal, this one pedal driving in town etc is just the way electric cars should drive

Preferred the look of new leaf as more colours could be obtained.

As above availability of actual cars

Zenith74

For me I chose the Leaf mainly on cost. You can buy a very nice spec'd low mileage Leaf for just over €10k. The Ioniq has not been around as long so you're typically going to need to spend closer to €20k on a secondhand model. If I was buying new today (pre the Leaf 62 being available) I'd be 50/50 on the Ioniq vs. the Leaf tbh.

At the time quite a few of the chargers around the country were CHAdeMO only, no CCS, but this is changing fairly quickly as the ESB are replacing them weekly now.

grudgehugger

@nkay1985:

I bought the new L40 in July.

Reasons for buying over Ioniq were I wanted a new car and L40 supply (& options) was better, bigger battery means more range (although I now know this is less applicable if doing a lot of motorway/fast driving), L40 has good space in boot and for kids in back, L40 gadgets like ePedal.

Also just wanted to buy the newest thing when I was buying new, and Ioniq had been out a couple of years. This is perhaps not a sensible reason but is an honest reflection of where my head was when buying

Very happy with my L40 however I’d likely be similar with Ioniq.

My advice is definitely buy EV - and expect to enjoy either of the options you’re considering!

irishgrover

kennethsmyth wrote: »

My main reasons I went for the leaf was:

Boot size ( have 2 kids under 4) so larger boot important

As this was my first electric car I was decided to go with a proven manufacturer of electric, Ioniq is excellent also but Nissan have been making them since 2010

Acceleration, the leaf is faster to accelerate but tops out at 151km, Ioniq is better at motorway driving but both get about same distance. When not on motorway leaf goes further.

Epedal, this one pedal driving in town etc is just the way electric cars should drive

Preferred the look of new leaf as more colours could be obtained.

As above availability of actual cars

As someone who ended up with Ioniq instead of Leaf I'd strongly concur with the above... however I'd add a couple more points on the leaf...

1. There is an app (Nissan Connect) with the leaf, there is nothing for the ioniq
2. Specification Options: There are options with the Leaf, there are none with the Ioniq.

nkay1985

Thanks guys. What would people think about buying the L40 in June or July if there's likely going to be an L62 next January (or am I way off on this? )

For instance, my normal change now would probably be to roll onto another Leon but there's going to be a completely new model in January 2020 so I wouldn't buy a new car in June 2019, only for it to be an old model six months later.

Mike9832

nkay1985 wrote: »

Thanks guys. What would people think about buying the L40 in June or July if there's likely going to be an L62 next January (or am I way off on this? )

For instance, my normal change now would probably be to roll onto another Leon but there's going to be a completely new model in January 2020 so I wouldn't buy a new car in June 2019, only for it to be an old model six months later.

I would get a Kona or Niro

L62 will be at least 5k more than L40

Models available in Jan could be the limited edition one that's nearly 40k

Ioniq will have its bigger battery then too

225km motorway and 300km mixed range

VW ID with even better range will be out too for similar money

You have lots of choices

Gumbo

nkay1985 wrote: »

Thanks guys. What would people think about buying the L40 in June or July if there's likely going to be an L62 next January (or am I way off on this? )

For instance, my normal change now would probably be to roll onto another Leon but there's going to be a completely new model in January 2020 so I wouldn't buy a new car in June 2019, only for it to be an old model six months later.

L62 supposed to be available for 192 registration.

KCross

nkay1985 wrote: »

...so I wouldn't buy a new car in June 2019, only for it to be an old model six months later.

The L62 wont be a new model. It will be a new option to the existing model and it will be significantly more expensive.

Think of it like buying a 1.4 petrol focus or a 2.0l diesel focus. The diesel doesnt cause the petrol to reduce in value... they are different variants of the same car with different prices accordingly for the bigger engine (or battery in the case of the L62)

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

The L62 wont be a new model. It will be a new option to the existing model and it will be significantly more expensive.

Think of it like buying a 1.4 petrol focus or a 2.0l diesel focus. The diesel doesnt cause the petrol to reduce in value... they are different variants of the same car with different prices accordingly for the bigger engine (or battery in the case of the L62)

Will be a good analogy in time

Think of it more like PS4 vs PS4 Pro now

Better in every way

Hard to go back to PS4 after using PS4 Pro

slave1

nkay1985 wrote: »

Thanks guys. What would people think about buying the L40 in June or July if there's likely going to be an L62 next January (or am I way off on this? )

For instance, my normal change now would probably be to roll onto another Leon but there's going to be a completely new model in January 2020 so I wouldn't buy a new car in June 2019, only for it to be an old model six months later.

Wouldn’t worry about it, what about you bought the L62 and then the 80s are announced, they’ll always be larger battery packs available until we reach the marginal factor where their increased range is offset by their increased weight, who knows what this will be, 80 on a mid sized car like a Leaf?

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Will be a good analogy in time

Think of it more like PS4 vs PS4 Pro now

Better in every way

Hard to go back to PS4 after using PS4 Pro

Thats a really bad analogy.

The inside of a PS4 Pro is nothing like a PS4 in terms of tech and the PS4 Pro replaced the PS4 at much the same price.


The only difference between an L62 and an L40 is basically its range and one doesnt replace the other.... both available for the foreseeable future with the longer range car being a much more expensive option.

And its how every serious manufacturer has designed their lineup as well.... Neo will come in 3 battery sizes, all Tesla's comes in multiple battery sizes. Its nothing new.

nkay1985

Mike9832 wrote: »

I would get a Kona or Niro

L62 will be at least 5k more than L40

Models available in Jan could be the limited edition one that's nearly 40k

Ioniq will have its bigger battery then too

225km motorway and 300km mixed range

VW ID with even better range will be out too for similar money

You have lots of choices

The Kona is beautiful but I couldn't stretch to a €39k car, unfortunately!

Fair points about the bigger battery. I'm kind of thinking about our whole driving situation, with two cars and what combination will work best in future. The ideal is probably one long-range EV and one short-range EV! So it may be worthwhile waiting for the longer-range Leaf/Ioniq now, rather than change immediately, and change my wife's diesel C5 to an older Leaf. We do use the C5 for holidaying in France quite a lot so storage space is another consideration. It's a minefield! 😂

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Thats a really bad analogy.

The inside of a PS4 Pro is nothing like a PS4 in terms of tech and the PS4 Pro replaced the PS4 at much the same price.


The only difference between an L62 and an L40 is basically its range and one doesnt replace the other.... both available for the foreseeable future with the longer range car being a much more expensive option.

And its how every serious manufacturer has designed their lineup as well.... Neo will come in 3 battery sizes, all Tesla's comes in multiple battery sizes. Its nothing new.

True its not exactly the same

Ps4 Pro has a beefed up gpu, beefed up ram, overclocked cpu, still same architecture almost

L62 has beefed up battery, beefed up electric motor, modified controller, better cooling

Its not just 1.4 diesel vs 2.0 diesel either

It will be when battery size is enough

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

True its not exactly the same

Ps4 Pro has a beefed up gpu, beefed up ram, overclocked cpu, still same architecture almost

L62 has beefed up battery, beefed up electric motor, modified controller, better cooling

Its not just 1.4 diesel vs 2.0 diesel either

It will be when battery size is enough

You forgot price. The L62 is alot more expensive than an L40 unlike your PS4 analogy. Thats a big differentiation that will mean that L40 wont become obsolete anytime soon as a result of L62 coming out.