2018 Leaf

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

You forgot price. The L62 is alot more expensive than an L40 unlike your PS4 analogy. Thats a big differentiation that will mean that L40 wont become obsolete anytime soon as a result of L62 coming out.

Ps4 will always drop in price, just like EVs

I think L40 will become obsolete once mass production and battery costs drop imo

60kWh will be the standard for family cars

40kWh will be for little city cars like Citigo etc

unkel

No EV will become obsolete any time soon. There's looking for crazy money like GBP6k for a crappy 2010 iMIEVs on Autotrader at the moment.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

No EV will become obsolete any time soon. There's looking for crazy money like GBP6k for a crappy 2010 iMIEVs on Autotrader at the moment.

Discontinued I mean, obsolete is the wrong term

Of course Leaf will go forever, incredibly reliable car

Will Nissan be making 40kWh Leafs in 2021

Don't think so myself, think 60kWh will be the min for a car that size and stabilise at that

24kWh, 30kWh, 40kWh will all have fate imo, few short years on market and discontinued

Ioniq will be the same soon, 28kWh will be discontinued

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Ps4 will always drop in price, just like EVs

I think L40 will become obsolete once mass production and battery costs drop imo

60kWh will be the standard for family cars

40kWh will be for little city cars like Citigo etc

All cars have depreciation. Its a consumable item so nothing new there(EV or ICE). What I'm trying to counter here is the usual quote that gets dropped in... "it will depreciate like a stone when the new model comes out".

It wont happen in the L40 case as the L62 is €5k+ more than the L40.

People will buy the car that suits their needs. The L40 is fine for some so they buy that. Others need the range and they will stump up for the L62.

Similar to buying an ICE.... some people are happy with a 1L petrol, some need a 2l diesel... it doesnt mean that 1l petrols disappear.


At some future point, lets say 15yrs+ time, when we have a battery breakthrough and 60kWh can be put into a Citigo without making it 1.5t in weight and still at €11k you might have a point... but in reality we have no sight of that point in time yet. Li-ion is where its at. We've a long way to go from €38k Kona EV's to €11k Citigo's with the same battery capacity!

You're making it sound like its just around the corner.

unkel

Discontinued is an irrelevant term. Of course every car will be discontinued at some point. I bet KCross is right though, L40 and L62 will be continued to be sold side by side with the latter commanding a hefty premium. And the former not only not discontinued, but certainly also not obsolete.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Similar to buying an ICE.... some people are happy with a 1L petrol, some need a 2l diesel... it doesnt mean that 1l petrols disappear.


At some future point, lets say 15yrs+ time, when we have a battery breakthrough and 60kWh can be put into a Citigo without making it 1.5t in weight and still at €11k you might have a point... but in reality we have no sight of that point in time yet. Li-ion is where its at. We've a long way to go from €38k Kona EV's to €11k Citigo's with the same battery capacity!

You're making it sound like its just around the corner.

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

Dacia could do a 15k 40kWh EV if they wanted to

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Battery production isn't the problem either, Hyundai are lieing when they are saying they can't get enough batteries

Likes of LG can make enough batteries but likes of Hyundai wont order them, don't want to sell EVs in mass

https://pushevs.com/2019/01/28/electric-car-boom-in-europe-starts-this-year/#comments

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

Dacia could do a 15k 40kWh EV if they wanted to

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Battery production isn't the problem either, Hyundai are lieing when they are saying they can't get enough batteries

Likes of LG can make enough batteries but likes of Hyundai wont order them, don't want to sell EVs in mass

https://pushevs.com/2019/01/28/electric-car-boom-in-europe-starts-this-year/#comments

The auto industry don't want to sell a lot of EVs in Europe before the emissions standards in 2020 are reset.
They also don't want to hit the 200k threshold in the US
They also make less money and less downstream money on EVs so they don't have interest in selling EVs beyond compliance cars.


Except Tesla of course, who are not a car company anyway.

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

The auto industry don't want to sell a lot of EVs in Europe before the emissions standards in 2020 are reset.
They also don't want to hit the 200k threshold in the US
They also make less money and less downstream money on EVs so they don't have interest in selling EVs beyond compliance cars.


Except Tesla of course, who are not a car company anyway.

All true

You can't blame them either, they are in the business of making money

I like Toyotas honest approach, they have no interest making them and not shy in admitting it

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

1ltr petrols eg small battery 30kWh have dissappeared, they don't sell them new anymore in Leafs case

I never said Citigo would get 64kWh, 40kWh willl be enough for them

Won't take 15 years either

Maybe it wont take 15yrs. But a battery breakthrough is required to stick a 40kWh into a Citigo and deliver it for €12k. Do you see that breakthrough around the corner... I dont. Loads of annoucements but nothing near production.

Current 40kWh drivetrain (inc battery) is a good 50%+ of the weight of a Citigo, not to mind the physical size of it. Thats not going to work without significant improvement in energy density.

The improvements in battery pack costs, which Tesla are leading, are in economies of scale at this stage. The energy density improvements are hard won.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Could be done very soon if they are at €100/kWh, 90% of parts are shared with ICE, it's just the battery and electric motors/inverters/controllers are cheap

As said above, there's more to it than price. Weight and Size is a factor at the end of the market you are talking about.

Mike9832 wrote: »

Its pretty obvious big auto are fleecing customers, Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Thats true, unfortunately.

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Kona doesn't cost 48k to produce

Where on earth did you pluck that figure of 48k from?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Where on earth did you pluck that figure of 48k from?

Price before grants.
38k + 1k residual VRT + 10k VRT+SEAI

Soarer

Is it just me, or does it seem like we've been through this discussion countless times before...in various different guises?

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

Price before grants.
38k + 1k residual VRT + 10k VRT+SEAI

So that includes 6k VRT. And about 8k VAT. We're talking 34k before taxes and incentives is the price to the customer, not 48k

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

So that includes 6k VRT. And about 8k VAT. We're talking 34k before taxes and incentives is the price to the customer, not 48k

You better get around to Hyundai dealers and explain then lol :pac:

Cause i have been to two of them when I test drove it and they both said 48k - 10k grants, 38k all in

https://www.murphygunn.com/web/2019-Kona-Electric/

The 2019 Kona Electric that’s just about to hit the European market looks like an ideal city car for the new generation of ecologically aware car owners. It’s an electric crossover with a flowing, straightforward and simplistic design that doesn’t scream ‘zero emission car’, and it offers plenty of boot space for your groceries. The base price for this EV in our dealership starts from €48,999, but after the VRT Reduction of €5,000 and SEAI grant of €5,000, the price is reduced to €38,999

unkel

Yeah but you made the leap to 48k (not) being the production cost of the Kona EV. You seemed to have forgotten the 14k tax...

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

Maybe it wont take 15yrs. But a battery breakthrough is required to stick a 40kWh into a Citigo and deliver it for €12k. Do you see that breakthrough around the corner... I dont. Loads of annoucements but nothing near production.

Current 40kWh drivetrain (inc battery) is a good 50%+ of the weight of a Citigo, not to mind the physical size of it. Thats not going to work without significant improvement in energy density.

The improvements in battery pack costs, which Tesla are leading, are in economies of scale at this stage. The energy density improvements are hard won.




As said above, there's more to it than price. Weight and Size is a factor at the end of the market you are talking about.




Thats true, unfortunately.

Won't be any battery breakthrough soon, batteries are well understood tech now and it's not really needed, all about price per kWh

We've been hearing about breakthroughs for years.

Chinese will be at €50/kWh in a few years, batteries will be a commodity and no better than them to ramp it up

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/07/envision-energy-says-ev-battery-cell-costs-will-fall-below-50-kwh-by-2025/

Might not be 12k for a Citigo, but I am 100% sure Dacia could do a 40kWh EV for 15k next year if they were serious about EV's especially with the grants we have here

50% of the cost of the first generation Leaf was battery alone , that battery cost now is now more like 15-20%

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Yeah but you made the leap to 48k (not) being the production cost of the Kona EV. You seemed to have forgotten the 14k tax...

Doesn't affect me or you

Without incentives its 48k, ICE Kona is 24k

That's all that matter's

ewj1978

premium ICE kona is not 24k

Mike9832

ewj1978 wrote: »

premium ICE kona is not 24k

Oh yes it is

I was offered a 125bhp Kona Premium for 24k with my old 04 diesel, if I was interested would have easily got it down to 23k or under.

Salesman clearly explained the Kona EV was 48k, minus grants bring it to 38k.

Wouldn't even entertain taking in my 04 diesel and when I asked about Ioniq he would give scrappage, but said he had no idea when to expect delivery, might be June, had no idea

cloughy

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

Gumbo

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

If you search, there’s loads of these questions.
Expect 160-180km and budget for that.
Realistically once you get used to the car you can get more, UK to 209km with very light foot driving.

Motorway will be reduced. Budget 1.5km per 1% at 100kmph and adjust from there.

ewj1978

Mike9832 wrote: »

Oh yes it is

I was offered a 125bhp Kona Premium for 24k with my old 04 diesel, if I was interested would have easily got it down to 23k or under.

Salesman clearly explained the Kona EV was 48k, minus grants bring it to 38k.

Wouldn't even entertain taking in my 04 diesel and when I asked about Ioniq he would give scrappage, but said he had no idea when to expect delivery, might be June, had no idea

CO2 Tax Price
Kona Premium 125 €270 €27,645
Kona Premium 4WD 1.6 Auto 153 €390 €31,645

The price quoted to you is incorrect.

Soarer

Maybe they gave him scrappage on the diesel?

ewj1978

never thought of that.

ELM327

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect.

Would like o get the 40kw version (but expensive at the moment) but whats the increase in range would it be 30% more than the 30kw,

Also charging speed, is it the 6.6 that I should be looking for to allow faster charging, and if so and have a home charging point how log does it take to get from 10% to full.

I would prefer the Ioniq, due to range and the boot seems bigger than the Leaf, but they are in short supply and maintaining a very high price even for a 2017/2018 car, whereas Leaf 2016/2017 is cheaper and more readily available.

Also is the speedo and cruse control able to be switched from Miles to KM is I import the car, as this was possible with my current car to change the display digitally from ML to KM.

sorry for all the questions, just doing research at the moment as to what to replace my existing ICE car with.

Thanks in advance,

Not fully, no.
Everything will be in miles with a little KM/H readout below.

slave1

ELM327 wrote: »

Not fully, no.
Everything will be in miles with a little KM/H readout below.

Everything on my L30 import was changed by me in less than a minute and all readings are in kms across the board, no miles anywhere

slave1

cloughy wrote: »

hi there, just wondering whats the real life experience of the range of a 30kw 2016/2017 leaf, most of the driving will be in and around Dublin with occasional trips further on the likes of the M50/M9/M7, so wondering realistically what KMs per charge could I expect,

For city driving the Leaf excels, you should be looking at 180/190kms in Summer and 140/150kms in Winter and that’s with full use of a/c and heating. If you put the boot down then expect less but this is very dependent on your driving style so hard to say exactly...

ELM327

slave1 wrote: »

Everything on my L30 import was changed by me in less than a minute and all readings are in kms across the board, no miles anywhere

He was asking about the Ioniq.


In a leaf, of course, you can change 2 settings and it's done.

cloughy

thanks all, and it would be the same question on either car imported, as whilst Leaf might be more available here, need to check the prices/spec compared to UK, and if import either would be frustrated if everything was in Miles, my own Prius, the Speedo can be changed to KM but all the trip and Odo are still in miles,

Soarer

cloughy wrote: »

thanks all, and it would be the same question on either car imported, as whilst Leaf might be more available here, need to check the prices/spec compared to UK, and if import either would be frustrated if everything was in Miles, my own Prius, the Speedo can be changed to KM but all the trip and Odo are still in miles,

If you're massively concerned about the readout being in km/h, then the Leaf is the handiest option. It's a preset in the menu.
Think the Ioniq is a bit more fiddly.

ELM327

Soarer wrote: »

If you're massively concerned about the readout being in km/h, then the Leaf is the handiest option. It's a preset in the menu.
Think the Ioniq is a bit more fiddly.

+1


The UK ioniq does not offer this function.

Old diesel

Latest from Bjorn - hes got his hands on a Leaf with the software update for Rapidgate.

He's having a race tomorrow with an eGolf

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

Latest from Bjorn - hes got his hands on a Leaf with the software update for Rapidgate.

He's having a race tomorrow with an eGolf

Rapidgate alive and well in sub zero temps

Joke really, destroyed Leafs reputation for the sake of a few hundred euro cooling system

E-Golf looks a good car, no issue with multiple rapid chargers and same range as Leaf40

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

Latest from Bjorn - hes got his hands on a Leaf with the software update for Rapidgate.

He's having a race tomorrow with an eGolf

Pity it's so cold and only 500km.
Will check in on this later.

Old diesel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Rapidgate alive and well in sub zero temps

Joke really, destroyed Leafs reputation for the sake of a few hundred euro cooling system

E-Golf looks a good car, no issue with multiple rapid chargers and same range as Leaf40

It still showed an improvement and the eGolf was only 15 mins ahead at the last charger.

The race been declared over wasnt just due to the rspidgate but also due to the i3 using the charger.

The Leaf only got on the charge at last stop because the eGolf moved off it.

The car still needs too much babying though.

What's clear is that there is a significant charge speed improvement between 35 and 45 degrees battery temp.

One thing I find interesting is that the red car that Bjorn previously drove with the new software seemed to do better. This implies that cars with the software from factory possibly do better.

Perhaps the new floorpan helps dissipate the heat

Old diesel

In Summer the eGolf can also throttle the charge as you will see if you find Bjorns video from back in 2017 where he took the then new 35 kwh Golf on a long trip.

We will still see severe rapidgate in summer.

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

Perhaps the new floorpan helps dissipate the heat

Thats what I read too

Cars built from October got roomier updated Leaf62 floorplan

Unfortunate for older Leaf40 if they got the gimped version

At least they have underfloor heating

Gile_na_gile

Have the 2018 Leaf SV with a 191 reg now for two weeks and still learning things about it. It is everything I had imagined based on the obsessive reading I did beforehand and while waiting for delivery and SEAI grant. For my commutes to Dublin and back it is fantastic. Very quick and reliable and well-suited for short motorway hops, given its fast acceleration and adequate top speed. Obviously 120kph downs the range rapidly but fine for short city hops, driving it similarly to ICE in terms of speed (or faster). First thing I did with it was drive up the Wicklow Gap, as I expect it not to have problems with that (and it didn't with 130km first drive, returning with 26% after mixed driving but not Leafspeed on smaller roads for the most part).

On the open, quiet motorway (i.e. M9), regardless of speed limits, most people average 130kph, and the Leaf can match that and faster (max 155kph, I have heard) but will not get too far at that speed. For a longer drive last weekend of 150km with kids in back, I took a slow winding route on the way to destination and motorway on the return with a howling wind behind and heavy rain. Was averaging 20kwh/100km at 110-120, and 27kwh/100 when accelerating to overtake. Tested the ICC behind BÉ bus at 100-110 and that dropped to 16kwh/100. Have not had the chance for the 180km drive to Tipp, yet.

The GOM was at 83km while distance at 53km, nearly converging after 120km, so stopped at Enfield for chademo charge for 15min before getting home rather than crawling home. A Kona waiting on the AC fast charge pulled up so left when I had enough for a bit of home driving (40%). Would have made it though. Temperature was 4-6 degrees Celsius yesterday, and heating at 17 deg C (auto setting, with heat pump).

So, far no problems with the charging infrastructure, but mostly charging with granny cable. Will install EVSE shortly.

We are up to 26k on ours and hit the low battery warning first time in months yesterday when did a 175 km circular trip on N/R roads with multiple stops on the way. We had 17 km on GOM remaining returning home. The conditions were not great, i.e. windy, wet roads and temperature around 4/5 degrees.

Another public charge successfully dodged.

Mupchease

Mike9832 wrote: »

Rapidgate alive and well in sub zero temps

Joke really, destroyed Leafs reputation for the sake of a few hundred euro cooling system

E-Golf looks a good car, no issue with multiple rapid chargers and same range as Leaf40

I’m in love with my egolf. No issue with charging at all. I’ve only had one day we’re ive fast charged twice mind you. I don’t have any hard figures but It didn’t seam to slow it down at all.

Mike9832

Mupchease wrote: »

I’m in love with my egolf. No issue with charging at all. I’ve only had one day we’re ive fast charged twice mind you. I don’t have any hard figures but It didn’t seam to slow it down at all.

Nice

Its seems a great car alright

Don't think you will ever encounter a problem with fast charging, read it needs like 4-5 rapids to start slowing

Whats that like 800km

Leaf40 for all the talk is a good car too, quickest 150bhp car I have ever drove

Would love one for 25k or less

30k is a bit too much based on competition like Ioniq, Kona, e-golf etc

eGolf is very well thought out product alright and probably due to battery location they appear to be able to dissipate the heat much more efficiently than the monolithic LEAF battery. Pity about the availability and price too compared to ICE models.

The price of L40 will have to be reduced somewhat when competition really becomes available. But in the current market the price/performance at 29k is unfortunately spot on as it can work as the only car for many expecially post the rapidgate firmware fix. It's pretty much in the same class of car as Qashqai (taller, longer, longer wheelbase but narrower) and the price is almost exactly the same between two of them for the SV spec. You can get a really base model Q for 26k but the spec is very poor.

The Golf is somewhat smaller vehicle and the eGolf suffers from the direct comparison between itself and the ICE models pricewise, similarly to Kona. LEAF doesn't have that handicap. If the money was not object I would choose eGolf over L40 but when the price difference is taken in consideration especially kitted out with nice stuff like the digital dash etc. etc. no can do.

unkel

Some people got the eGolf for €31k on the road with diesel scrappage. At that price it is much better value for money than the L40. It's simply a better car all round (also better than Ioniq)

At the full price, not so much a good deal.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Some people got the eGolf for €31k on the road with diesel scrappage. At that price it is much better value for money than the L40. It's simply a better car all round (also better than Ioniq)

At the full price, not so much a good deal.

True that. If you were at the right place at the right time 31k would be a great price. I pressed some buttons on the website and got this for a nice config with heat pump, lane assist, rear camera, heated seats, blue metallic:

€ 45,317.89

That's including SEAI grant for a private buyer and the VRT reduction. Still, would be great car to be in.

Gile_na_gile

I think that price includes an extra EUR 5k+ just because it is recognisable as a VW Golf, even if it is a classic car. It will be the same with the revamped Camper.

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

True that. If you were at the right place at the right time 31k would be a great price. I pressed some buttons on the website and got this for a nice config with heat pump, lane assist, rear camera, heated seats, blue metallic:

€ 45,317.89

That's including SEAI grant for a private buyer and the VRT reduction. Still, would be great car to be in.

You need to drop another 5k off that, will be circa 40k

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You need to drop another 5k off that, will be circa 40k

Possibly, the "invoice" listed 5000+5000 as grants but it seemed a bit pricy. I did add pretty much all the toys to the price like adaptive LED, rear cross traffic warning, DAB.

But as I said if I had the means to buy it I would gladly do so. Would be a nice place to be and all the extra stuff like ambient lighting looks really nice in Golf.

icom

Nissan UK have some details on their website on the new Leaf 3.0 E+

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/keep-in-touch.html

Available this summer, the New LEAF 3.ZERO is available in two derivatives, 40kWh and 62kWh e+. The new 62KWH Nissan LEAF e+ 3.ZERO features enhanced performance, capable of delivering 217PS as well as an increased range of up to 239miles* from a single charge. With Nissan Intelligent Mobility, including ProPILOT, e-Pedal and a new 8 inch screen for enhanced navigation and entertainment. 3.ZERO prices start from £31,095 MRRP for 40kwh and £37,105 MRRP for 62kwh e+**. Register now and be among the first to own one in Europe!

Old diesel

I see no mention of active cooling which is worrying.

Mind you they also don't mention any 100 kw charging.

Old diesel

Incidentally some early reporting on Speak EV on the rapidgate fix isn't exactly confidence inspiring.

Perhaps the L40s with new floorpan are better - Bjorns red test car seemed to do better then the white car he raced the eGolf with.

The white one was a car that Bjorn drove previously with OLD software.

The Speak EV folk with not amazing results were retrofits too.

Speak EV example.

1st charge 45 kw..

2nd charge 32 kw

3rd and 4th charge 22 kw.

No improvement apparent for that L40

Don't know if it was a specific fault on that car but the car IS showing as having the latest software