2018 Leaf

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

I see no mention of active cooling which is worrying.

Mind you they also don't mention any 100 kw charging.

No active cooling
100kW chademo is not possible in Ireland or UK (or most places) currently.

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

Incidentally some early reporting on Speak EV on the rapidgate fix isn't exactly confidence inspiring.

Perhaps the L40s with new floorpan are better - Bjorns red test car seemed to do better then the white car he raced the eGolf with.

The white one was a car that Bjorn drove previously with OLD software.

The Speak EV folk with not amazing results were retrofits too.

Speak EV example.

1st charge 45 kw..

2nd charge 32 kw

3rd and 4th charge 22 kw.

No improvement apparent for that L40

Don't know if it was a specific fault on that car but the car IS showing as having the latest software

That is a significant improvement though.
Previously it was limiting to 22kW on the 2nd and sometimes 1st rapid.

Old diesel

ELM327 wrote: »

No active cooling
100kW chademo is not possible in Ireland or UK (or most places) currently.

Nissan UK had alluded to an extra cooling fan in a tweet in response to somone asking them about it at around the time of original 62 kwh launch.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

No active cooling

It apparently has the same cooling as the Ioniq.... a fan.

ELM327 wrote: »

100kW chademo is not possible in Ireland or UK (or most places) currently.

eCars have tendered for 100kW ChaDeMo so hopefully it will get installed.

There is no 100kW CCS in Ireland either, btw!

Old diesel

KCross wrote: »

That is a significant improvement though.
Previously it was limiting to 22kW on the 2nd and sometimes 1st rapid.

In spring weather in 2018 some were getting good speeds at 2nd charge.

If this was 30 degrèes in summer I'd agree it was significant because.....

22 kw charging likely means it's not hit 56 degrees battery temp and the power loss you got in the old software. How the new software handles 56 degrees has not yet been reported.

How it handles 56 degrees and how fast it gets there would be the key criteria for me if I were an L40 owner deciding whether to get update or not.

The power loss is horrible from reports and in my view more annoying then the slow charging.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

It apparently has the same cooling as the Ioniq.... a fan.




eCars have tendered for 100kW ChaDeMo so hopefully it will get installed.

There is no 100kW CCS in Ireland either, btw!

There will be 100kW CCS within 6 weeks.


The fan is different to how it is implemented in ioniq, they said it was the same as the 40kWh ENV200.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

There will be 100kW CCS within 6 weeks.

All you need is a 100kW capable car to use it!
Its possible Nissan will have an affordable 100kW capable car in Ireland before anyone else.

Just saying!

ELM327 wrote: »

The fan is different to how it is implemented in ioniq, they said it was the same as the 40kWh ENV200.

whats the difference?

As I understood it, its a fan that uses the A/C air to cool the battery. Regardless, a fan is active cooling. The same as the Ioniq.

We need to see some real world tests though. All we have so far is a Nissan tweet which could potentially be BS.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

All you need is a 100kW capable car to use it!
Its possible Nissan will have an affordable 100kW capable car in Ireland before anyone else.

Just saying!




whats the difference?

As I understood it, its a fan that uses the A/C air to cool the battery. Regardless, a fan is active cooling. The same as the Ioniq.

We need to see some real world tests though. All we have so far is a Nissan tweet which could potentially be BS.

The difference is that it only works while charging.
In the Ioniq, and other cars like Zoe (even the I Miev etc), the fans come on if the battery is too hot when driving. Means the ENV200 can rapidgate.


Currently the Hyundai/Kia new EVs are the fastest non Tesla charging cars available. But everything is limited anyway by the crap network.


Hopefully payment for charging and network expansion will change this.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

The difference is that it only works while charging.
In the Ioniq, and other cars like Zoe (even the I Miev etc), the fans come on if the battery is too hot when driving. Means the ENV200 can rapidgate.

Are you basing that on Bjorn's review of the eNV200? As I understand it, he got that wrong in his video.

Either way, we dont know how they have implemented the active cooling in the L62 until someone gets to actually drive/charge one.

A 40kWh eNV200 isnt going to behave the same as an L62. We need real world tests before we can say whether it has an issue or not.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Are you basing that on Bjorn's review of the eNV200? As I understand it, he got that wrong in his video.

Either way, we dont know how they have implemented the active cooling in the L62 until someone gets to actually drive/charge one.

A 40kWh eNV200 isnt going to behave the same as an L62. We need real world tests before we can say whether it has an issue or not.

He got something wrong alright but there are other reports that substantiate that the ENV200 still gets rapidgate so whatever active cooling there is is not sufficient to cool the battery sufficiently - unlike other EVs mentioned above. Even the iMiev/CZero/Ion from 2010-11 had active cooling.


But you're right, we need real world road tests to see what rapidgate (if any) affects the leaf60. If it only impacts after 3 fast charges in a 60kWh leaf it may not be much of an issue as no one will drive 1000km+ in one day anyway. (Except bjorn :P)

ewj1978

£37k for a nissan leaf. Thats gonna be €45k here or else Paddy spec galore.

Water John

With that price I don't feel too bad in having gone for the Kona, coming this week.

Old diesel

The thing with an eNV200 is that they never changed the parameters of when rapidgate kicked - or if they did they actually might have made it a tad more conservative.

This plus the apparent randomness of when eNV200 cooling kicks in means it's hard to assess the true effectiveness of the system.

Even with Bjorn having issues you could still see a cooling effect.

Wouldnt surprise me if even though it might use the eNV200 basic concept - it actually gets changes made.

I've felt that having it kick in while driving would on its own be a useful improvement for eNV200.

Temp gain while driving is less then on rapid so easier to cool at that point

Mike9832

ewj1978 wrote: »

£37k for a nissan leaf. Thats gonna be €45k here or else Paddy spec galore.

Should be €37k

L40 is €30k for a decent spec

KCross

Bear in mind the 3.zero is the launch limited edition so, if like the 2.zero, is close to top of the range(SVE) with all bells and whistles.

Cheaper versions should come available later.... still not going to be cheap though considering there is a £6k price gap between L40 and L62 3.Zero spec's in the UK.

Never know what the L62 pricing will be knowing that they build the car in UK, and hard Brexit seem like the most likely outcome now.

Can't find the article now but it was mentioned that the active cooling was something Nissan UK "invented" and in reality there will be exactly the same active cooling in L62 as in L40, i.e. none.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Its possible Nissan will have an affordable 100kW capable car in Ireland before anyone else.

Indeed. On paper. But when you go charge it doesn't go over 22kW unless you left the keys overnight on the passenger seat, drove at least 78km continously under 81km/h and the outside temperature hasn't been under 9C or over 21C for 3 weeks

But seriously I doubt we will ever get 100kW CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland. Who on earth would invest in these when there is only ever going to be one car that can use them?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

But seriously I doubt we will ever get 100kW CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland. Who on earth would invest in these when there is only ever going to be one car that can use them?

I dont know. eCars tendered for it so I presume they are serious about providing it.

KCross

samih wrote: »

Can't find the article now but it was mentioned that the active cooling was something Nissan UK "invented" and in reality there will be exactly the same active cooling in L62 as in L40, i.e. none.

Wouldnt surprise me.

Their thought process for the L40 was that because it had longer range that people wouldnt need to do multipe rapids therefore no need for thermal management. If they keep that same thought process the L62 will need even less rapid charging and hence no thermal management again.

The tweet mentioning a fan could be some lacky in the customer service team that had no idea what he was saying!

Old diesel

But yet the leaked German article before Christmas also alluded to a fan.

And that was based on some meeting for German dealers.

Will be interesting to see how they handle 100 kw alleged charging with no cooling. Surely someone will do a demo

It would be pleasant surprise if there indeed was a fan but I'm doubtful. The cooling system of the eNV200 seem to cool the battery well (i.e. once it hits over 45 degrees the cooling system brings it down back to about 40 degrees) but is currently running the same rapidgate algorithm than L40 so it rapidgates without a good reason. Unfortunatly that cooling system and having air conditioning for the passengers are mutually exclusive as the A/C evaporator is integrated in the battery to cool it. So it's a proper active cooling system but not for the passengers.

The L62 should be able to manage the battery temparature better than earlier LEAFs on the run, as I speculated somewhere this theread earlier. But you never know until somebody gets a proper spin in it. As the battery capacity has increased by 55 percent it could be that each of the new battery cells have also a marginally larger capacity than the ones on L40.

Shefwedfan

Any sign of 60kWh eNV200?

catharsis

KCross wrote: »

All you need is a 100kW capable car to use it!
Its possible Nissan will have an affordable 100kW capable car in Ireland before anyone else.

Just saying! .

Audi e-tron is here and has over 100Kw - I believe the Jaguar iPace also does something similar if not as fast, and of course Tesla.

ELM327

catharsis wrote: »

Audi e-tron is here and has over 100Kw - I believe the Jaguar iPace also does something similar if not as fast, and of course Tesla.

Audi ETtron charges faster on CCS than Tesla can charge on superchargers (weird fact, model 3 can charge faster on Ionity than on the superchargers).


IPace charges at ~80kW so far with rumors of a OTA update to 120kW coming.


Other than that, all that is left is "100kW capable" cars that charge at 70kW (Hyundai/Kia). It's kind of like "HD Ready" vs "Full HD" Tvs.

KCross

catharsis wrote: »

Audi e-tron is here and has over 100Kw - I believe the Jaguar iPace also does something similar if not as fast, and of course Tesla.

I did say "affordable"!

€100k cars dont fit that description for the vast majority.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

IPace charges at ~80kW so far with rumors of a OTA update to 120kW coming.

How will they manage that with just a software update?

If the appropriate hardware is already there and the battery is capable of taking it you'd think they'd have just delivered it at 120kW from the start?

Maybe they want to see how it handles 80kW first.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

How will they manage that with just a software update?

If the appropriate hardware is already there and the battery is capable of taking it you'd think they'd have just delivered it at 120kW from the start?

Maybe they want to see how it handles 80kW first.

There's an initial software limitation to ~200a
The hardware is present but they have not enabled it yet.
Better than the nissan "have a go" approach :pac:

https://support.fastned.nl/hc/en-gb/articles/360000788848-Charging-with-a-Jaguar-I-PACE

Mike9832

Quick car for 150bhp

Leaf 215bhp is going to be class to drive

Should be a closer match alright even though the L62 won't have much more low down grunt than the L40 (340 vs 320 Nm) while heavier than the lower capacity car. But it should be able to keep up better with the 200 BHP Fiesta above 100 km/h.

Mike9832

samih wrote: »

Should be a closer match alright even though the L62 won't have much more low down grunt than the L40 (340 vs 320 Nm) while heavier than the lower capacity car. But it should be able to keep up better with the 200 BHP Fiesta above 100 km/h.

Look at the horsepower, not the torque.

L62 will leave an L40 for dead and that Fiesta too

The difference will be all at the top of the rev range. Power = torque x rpm. Which is fine as L40 is quick enough off the line already and the L62 has only extra few percent of torque. But the L62 will absolutely trounce 40 above maybe 70 km/h.

I'm also suspecting that the L62 may have taller gearing than earlier cars as the motor speed would go to over 10 k rpm at the new improved top speed of 165 km/h. If that's the case then the L62 might actually be ever so slilghty slower than L40 off the line.

The difference is bit like 8V vs early 16V engines: The 16V had more power at the top and as there are multiple gears you could always out accelerate that 115 hp 2.0-8V with your 136 hp 1.8-16V. But the same doesn't apply for EVs. The L40 vs L62 is exaclty the same as Kona 40 vs 64. They have almost identical 0-100 times. But doing 100-150 km/h the 6X kWh cars will absolutely murder their 40 counterpart.

unkel

+1

That also explains why my own EV is very quick off the line (great torque of 295NM) but lethargic for overtaking above 100km/h (just 120BHP in power)

unkel

unkel wrote: »

+1

That also explains why my own EV is very quick off the line (great torque of 295NM) but lethargic for overtaking above 100km/h (just 120BHP in power)

The Ioniq also has, compared to the LEAF, a slightly taller gearing which in theory dulls the acceleration but in practice brings the motor peak efficiency closer to the motorway speeds. IONIQ has 45 Nm and 10 BHP advantage over the L24/30 and is lighter which both take care of the slow speed disadvantage. What it probably partially allows is that absolutely reckless 170 km/h top speed (don't anybody think the children). Nissan has been playing with the gearing too over the years so taller gearing for the L62 is not totally out of question. The original LEAF had even shorter gearing which allows the early Japanese cars to out accelerate the UK build 131-> model at low speeds. And now when I think about it, I don't actually know if the L40 has the same final drive ratio as the previous gen.

n97 mini

Doesn't the Leaf 24/30 limit available power for the first 20 or 30km/h? An i3 owner told me that! Something to do with breaking teeth on gears if full power was available at 0. If they do it, I'd say the L40 does it too, as it's the same drivetrain afaik.

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote: »

Doesn't the Leaf 24/30 limit available power for the first 20 or 30km/h? An i3 owner told me that! Something to do with breaking teeth on gears if full power was available at 0. If they do it, I'd say the L40 does it too, as it's the same drivetrain afaik.

Now when you mention it that rings a bell. But there was also final drive ratio change and the motor itself is also different design from 2013 up.

Or maybe not. According to the specs the ratio actually stayed the same between 2011-2017 and then actually went up for the 2018. So in L40 the motor is spinning slighlty faster than on the previous generation, which is actually unexpected.

ewj1978

Just watched Bjorn's L40 vs EGolf race. Couldn't believe the car was getting rapidgate in -12C.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

Now when you mention it that rings a bell. But there was also final drive ratio change and the motor itself is also different design from 2013 up.

Or maybe not. According to the specs the ratio actually stayed the same between 2011-2017 and then actually went up for the 2018. So in L40 the motor is spinning slighlty faster than on the previous generation, which is actually unexpected.

It's the same motor since gen 1 leaf to now. The batteries and one or two other drivetrain elements have changed but the main parts have not. Nissan's attempt to recoup the lost investment in the 2011 leaf imo.

ewj1978 wrote: »

Just watched Bjorn's L40 vs EGolf race. Couldn't believe the car was getting rapidgate in -12C.

An interesting race that one as neither car has active cooling.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

It's the same motor since gen 1 leaf to now. The batteries and one or two other drivetrain elements have changed but the main parts have not. Nissan's attempt to recoup the lost investment in the 2011 leaf imo.

That probably explains why the L40 is still so inefficient.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

It's the same motor since gen 1 leaf to now. The batteries and one or two other drivetrain elements have changed but the main parts have not. Nissan's attempt to recoup the lost investment in the 2011 leaf imo.

The motor is the same alright, EM57, between gen 1.5 and gen 2 includiing the L62. The 2011-12 used a different motor called EM61 which was rumoured to be more expensive to make. Interesting that the torque extracted from the EM57 has increased 250->340 Nm and power 110-215 PS between the generations.

But the final drive ratio has changed from 1:7.9377 to 1:8.193 for some reason on L40 according to the Nissan's specs. The Ioniq in the meantime has a gear ratio of 1:7.412 which is considerably taller than the one Nissan uses and with the Kona EV Hyundai have selected about the same ratio as the ealier LEAFs.

So what does this tell us about the performance in practice. Absolutely nothing but if you're geek this is the stuff that happens in your head, bless.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

The motor is the same alright, EM57, between gen 1.5 and gen 2 includiing the L62. The 2011-12 used a different motor called EM61 which was rumoured to be more expensive to make. Interesting that the torque extracted from the EM57 has increased 250->340 Nm and power 110-215 PS between the generations.

But the final drive ratio has changed from 1:7.9377 to 1:8.193 for some reason on L40 according to the Nissan's specs. The Ioniq in the meantime has a gear ratio of 1:7.412 which is considerably taller than the one Nissan uses and with the Kona EV Hyundai have selected about the same ratio as the ealier LEAFs.

So what does this tell us about the performance in practice. Absolutely nothing but if you're geek this is the stuff that happens in your head, bless.

The gearing ratios are interesting as they are so far removed from final drive ratios on fossil fuel engines - that they are meaningless to me in terms of context. Final drive ratios in fossil fuel engines generally hover between one SD of 1:1


I didn't know there was a motor change between early leafs and the UK built gen 1.5, that's interesting.


I don't understand the meaning of your last sentence.

Not any normal person apart from geeks like two of us (apparently) could possibly find the the discussion about final drive ratios interesting. :-)

Gumbo

samih wrote: »

Not any normal person apart from geeks like two of us (apparently) could possibly find the the discussion about final drive ratios interesting. :-)

Depends. We used to change the final drive on the integra type r years ago depending if we wanted top speed or quicker acceleration

Old diesel

So Bjorn reran the Leaf vs eGolf race.

This was to see how the Leaf would do on 16 inch wheels and also it was decided the route of the 1st race wasn't great.

I think 3rd rapid on the Leaf was 39 kw - and the final rapid which was actually at the finish line for the Leaf was 30 kw.

I think Bjorn in the Leaf won by staying on 3rd rapid for a bit longer and then running the battery all the way down to practically zero.

While Pawel* in eGolf dived in for an extra stop.

Think this route was actually 600 kilometres

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

I think 3rd rapid on the Leaf was 39 kw - and the final rapid which was actually at the finish line for the Leaf was 30 kw.

Not much #rapidgate there then. Is his L40 new (came with the later software) or an earlier model that got the software update?

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Not much #rapidgate there then. Is his L40 new (came with the later software) or an earlier model that got the software update?

That's a good point actually - he had 17 inch wheels previously on white Leaf when doing the race vs eGolf the 1st day.

16 inch today - so I'm not sure if they just had wheels changed on exact same car or a different car.

If its the exact same Leaf as before it was software update.

Shefwedfan

Old diesel wrote: »

So Bjorn reran the Leaf vs eGolf race.

This was to see how the Leaf would do on 16 inch wheels and also it was decided the route of the 1st race wasn't great.

I think 3rd rapid on the Leaf was 39 kw - and the final rapid which was actually at the finish line for the Leaf was 30 kw.

I think Bjorn in the Leaf won by staying on 3rd rapid for a bit longer and then running the battery all the way down to practically zero.

While Pawel* in eGolf dived in for an extra stop.

Think this route was actually 600 kilometres

So the eGolf didn't lose, the driver lost it for the eGolf

Old diesel

Right - a look back at Bjorn videos suggests that the Leaf in yesterdays re run of the race is actually a different Leaf BUT the two cars have consecutive plates so assuming Norwegian plates are like Ireland.

They were likely registered on same day.

So retrofit software most likely

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So the eGolf didn't lose, the driver lost it for the eGolf

In fairness there's no comparison, bjorn having the car gives it an edge due to his experience.


I'd pay the 8k difference and pick the egolf if they were the only two EVs available. I was surprised to hear his comment that the egolf was the #2 selling EV in Norway, there's barely 5 in the whole of Ireland!

The eGolf is a better choice if you don't need the extra space L40 provides and can stomach the price difference. It handles better and the perceived quality at least is one step up from Nissans. Love the LCD instrument cluster and the interior lighting in them which of course push the price north. CCS is good too going forward.

The L40 wins hands down the value for money competition at the price range of just under 30k list price cars. Ioniq is close by but again not if you need the space, especially the boot space. At price close to 40k I would really need the car to have 60 kWh of battery capacity and/or at least fan cooling preventing rapidgate in the summer.

grudgehugger

Anyone on here spoken to Nissan Ireland about the software update?