2018 Leaf

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

BTW stick to 100km/h and you can easily do Cork to Belfast in 1 stop in Ioniq

Sure.

Might go the whole hog and take up knitting and playing drafts too!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Not sure what the point of that post is. Its not technically possible to drive at max power for 18mins so its a pointless calculation.

They've made it not possible because of the atrocious affect it would have on range. That's precisely my point

And you can redline a modern ICE petrol car for a lot longer than 18 minutes without it doing any damage or shorten the lifespan of the engine

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Sure.

Might go the whole hog and take up knitting and playing drafts too!

Haha, wouldn't be my style either. More of a challenge to do it at 150km/h with 2 stops

KCross

unkel wrote: »

They've made it not possible because of the atrocious affect it would have on range. That's precisely my point

And you can redline a modern ICE petrol car for a lot longer than 18 minutes without it doing any damage or shorten the lifespan of the engine

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration.... what road would you be able to do that on and what speed would you be at after 1min, not to mind 18mins.... its just not possible to do so its a pointless calculation.... you can't do it in an ICE either so its not an EV thing.... its more physics than motors!


I'll take your word for it on the red lining but I wouldn't like to see the mpg figures.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration.

And defy the laws of physics?

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration....

And almost infinite mass?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

And defy the laws of physics?

grogi wrote: »

And almost infinite mass?

Lets not get too technical here! :P

Im just saying you can't accelerate constantly for 18mins hence the calculation is just theoretical and not possible to do in practice even if they disabled the speed limiter.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Lets not get too technical here! :P

Im just saying you can't accelerate constantly for 18mins hence the calculation is just theoretical and not possible to do in practice even if they disabled the speed limiter.

There is something called aerodynamic drag. Because of it the power requirement to maintain certain speed increases with power of three.

For instance, if at 60 km/h you need only 5 kW to overcome the drag, at 120 km/h you would need 40kW... At 180 km/h you need 135kW... Every time you increase the speed by 10%, your power requirement goes up by 35%...

Eventually you will reach a speed when all your power goes not to acceleration, but beating the drag. And that speed is not that far away - around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

According to your dyno graph it was more like 114bhp. With a coefficient of drag of 0.32 (which is really not that bad), I would be surprised if it couldn't do about 190km/h

KCross

grogi wrote: »

There is something called aerodynamic drag. Because of it the power requirement to maintain certain speed increases with power of three.

For instance, if at 60 km/h you need only 5 kW to overcome the drag, at 120 km/h you would need 40kW... At 180 km/h you need 135kW... Every time you increase the speed by 10%, your power requirement goes up by 35%...

Eventually you will reach a speed when all your power goes not to acceleration, but beating the drag. And that speed is not that far away - around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

I agree the faster you go the more you will be using to overcome drag.

And again without derailing things too much here.... you cannot use max power for 18mins so its just a theoretical figure. It means nothing in reality... thats all Im saying.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

you cannot use max power for 18mins

The only reason you can't is because the software won't let you. If you took the limiter off you could

Maybe someone has tried this already somewhere?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The only reason you can't is because the software won't let you. If you took the limiter off you could

Maybe someone has tried this already somewhere?

Its also limited by the software because the battery wouldn't take it, so if someone has tried it I'd say they had a bad result!

unkel

Not for 18 minutes? I doubt it would be a problem.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Not for 18 minutes? I doubt it would be a problem.

I won't claim to be an expert on that but my understanding is that the Leaf battery wouldn't take that level of current for 18mins.... not sure it would even allow it for a minute. I'd have to dig out specs... the C-rate is what they call it.

thierry14

cros13 wrote: »

Don't be so sure about that. There is definately a larger battery than 40kWh on the way with the new Leaf. The only question is when will they have enough cell supply from LG to get it into dealers. But I'm very confident n Leaf with more than 50kWh will be on Irish roads in 2018. What I don't know is whether Nissan will acknowledge the existence of the larger battery at launch.

If you want a car with more than 320km of range don't buy the 40kWh Leaf, just wait another 6 months.

Wonder what the pricing on the 60kwh will be 35k

Guessing the 40kwh will be 25k as rumored here

if the 60kwh has a stronger motor say 200bhp vs 147bhp it would be worth it, but if its the same motor, not sure an extra 130km range is worth 10k

If both have 150kwh charging I would go with the 40kwh

Any chargers capable of 150kwh charging in Ireland, bar Tesla only one's?

Esb are max 50kwh?

You won't see 150 Kw charging with a 40 Kwh battery that has 0 form of cooling, I'd say the best you can hope for is 60 Kw which is a hell of a lot better than the 24 Kwh Leaf and around 15 Kw better than the 30 Kwh.

With the exact same chemistry a 40 Kwh battery should take twice the charging current with the same level of heating, in regards to the current leaf chemistry that's 90 Kw, 45 Kw x 2 for the 30 Kwh but it does heat up faster than the 24 Kwh.

However, GM/LG capped the 60 Kwh Bolt charging to 50 Kw max. The excuse being that there are no chargers capable of more than this installed. ??? so what the real reason behind it remains unknown.

On Wiki I see ChaDeMo provides 62.5 Kw max. And I highly doubt Nissan implemented ChaDeMo II which I don't think even exists yet and even if it did there are 0 chargers and we're already unlikely to see new DC chargers in 2018.

I'm still puzzled as to why BMW still limit the 33 Kwh I3 to 47 Kw on a battery that has liquid cooling.

sgalvin

Although the battery can take that charging rate, the heat power generated in the pack will be proportionally higher.

The rate at which the heat is given away to the outside world is based on the outside surface area of the battery which is going to be the same. To get rid of twice the heat power, the battery would have to rise to twice the surface temperature.
Battery temperature is one of the key item chademo monitors during charging.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You won't see 150 Kw charging with a 40 Kwh battery that has 0 form of cooling, I'd say the best you can hope for is 60 Kw which is a hell of a lot better than the 24 Kwh Leaf and around 15 Kw better than the 30 Kwh.

With the exact same chemistry a 40 Kwh battery should take twice the charging current with the same level of heating, in regards to the current leaf chemistry that's 90 Kw, 45 Kw x 2 for the 30 Kwh but it does heat up faster than the 24 Kwh.

However, GM/LG capped the 60 Kwh Bolt charging to 50 Kw max. The excuse being that there are no chargers capable of more than this installed. ??? so what the real reason behind it remains unknown.

On Wiki I see ChaDeMo provides 62.5 Kw max. And I highly doubt Nissan implemented ChaDeMo II which I don't think even exists yet and even if it did there are 0 chargers and we're already unlikely to see new DC chargers in 2018.

I'm still puzzled as to why BMW still limit the 33 Kwh I3 to 47 Kw on a battery that has liquid cooling.

grogi

sgalvin wrote: »

Although the battery can take that charging rate, the heat power generated in the pack will be proportionally higher.

The rate at which the heat is given away to the outside world is based on the outside surface area of the battery which is going to be the same. To get rid of twice the heat power, the battery would have to rise to twice the surface temperature.
Battery temperature is one of the key item chademo monitors during charging.

Assuming same charging efficiency is achieved. Updated manufacturing processes, even with same chemistry, often bring less defects and better efficiency.

sgalvin

sgalvin wrote: »

Although the battery can take that charging rate, the heat power generated in the pack will be proportionally higher.

The rate at which the heat is given away to the outside world is based on the outside surface area of the battery which is going to be the same. To get rid of twice the heat power, the battery would have to rise to twice the surface temperature.
Battery temperature is one of the key item chademo monitors during charging.

It would give off twice the heat given the fact the battery would be twice the physical size but the total heat would be the same for the same setup.

Now, if the current leaf 30 Kwh was capable of a 4 C charge rate it would heat up about the same at 90 Kw as the current 30 Kwh Leaf at 45 Kw.

noelf

Just spotted this from Autocar email .. Full reveal 6 September..

Definitely nicer, an estate version would be brilliant !

grogi

Are there any rumours about the AC charger in the new Leaf?

Should it have a three phase support 6.6 kW each, it would be an excellent car really. Even three phase at 3.3 kW would be good

ELM327

grogi wrote: »

Are there any rumours about the AC charger in the new Leaf?

Should it have a three phase support 6.6 kW each, it would be an excellent car really. Even three phase at 3.3 kW would be good

Other than the spy shots confirming type2, I have not seen anything.
Would not hold out much hope for more than 7kW

DrPhilG

ELM327 wrote: »

Other than the spy shots confirming type2, I have not seen anything.
Would not hold out much hope for more than 7kW

Hold up, isn't the current Leaf type 1? So everyone will need to buy new cables?

Water John

Don't think Leaf have changed charging Type.

stesaurus

DrPhilG wrote: »

Hold up, isn't the current Leaf type 1? So everyone will need to buy new cables?

Yep, spy shots all show type 2 AC.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Hold up, isn't the current Leaf type 1? So everyone will need to buy new cables?

Water John wrote: »

Don't think Leaf have changed charging Type.

It is changed to type2.
Look at the photos of the charger input.
It's the EU standard, type1 is dead.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

Hold up, isn't the current Leaf type 1? So everyone will need to buy new cables?

Anyone buying Leaf II will presumably get a compatible cable with it.

Changing to a different cable will only be an issue for those who have already got a tethered Type 1 charge point at home. Either change the cable on the charge point or get a new one or get an untethered charge point.

unkel

And if you buy a new Leaf you get another free charger installed anyway

DrPhilG

So I'm in the minority who buy second hand?

Is it possible to change the plug on my current cables? I bought a 10m cable and I'd rather change the end on it than buy a different one.

unkel

Would probably make more financial sense to sell it and buy a Type 2 cable.

KCross

DrPhilG wrote: »

So I'm in the minority who buy second hand?

Is it possible to change the plug on my current cables? I bought a 10m cable and I'd rather change the end on it than buy a different one.

BoatMad is the expert but you can change the cable (as opposed to the connection).

i.e.
- Buy new type 2 cable
- Open EVSE and disconnect cable form controller
- Connect new cable

Im sure someone will find a youtube video somewhere of it being done.

Changing the connection can technically be done but requires more equipment (crimping if I remember correctly).

Changing the cable shouldn't be much more complicated than wiring a plug.... health warning is that I haven't done it so I'm only relaying here.

ELM327

You could also buy a type1 to type2 adapter.

grogi

grogi wrote: »

I've found a power curve for a Leaf.

It would looks the power is limited by the battery. The torque, after initial spike, goes down to maintain the same power.
Because of that the Leaf might feel restrained - it lacks that umphs experienced at low speed. It is however not less powerful than a 110 bhp ICE car and will accelerate equally (if not better - who drives the ICE near max power?) at any speed.

So if the new Leaf comes with 150 bhp drivetrain, it will feel more powerful mid-high speed than the current one. But it will still feel weaker than around 30 km/h.

So, following to my post in the generic motors forum...

Below the accelerations of a Leaf 1 (115 PS), Leaf 2 (150 PS) and 130 PS Golf Mk7 (it has Cx=0.27!!) on 2nd and 5th gears.

The initial acceleration of Leafs is limited only by available traction. I have allowed a bit more traction to the Leaf 2, a fantasy of the author...



As you can see, the current Leaf will accelerate slower than a slightly more powerful ICE, but only when that ICE is working around its maximum power - high revs.

Apply more current and you get more acceleration, more voltage and you get more speed but both can be manipulated by software and gearing and of course the electronics, wiring etc dictate how much power can be delivered and also the motor and battery.

Motors are capable of taking huge peak bursts of power, especially liquid cooled motors. It would not surprise me if the Leaf motor could take twice the power, efficiency might drop but acceleration is not constant.

The leaf is lacking mid and top but it can certainly keep speed up on the motorway and doesn't struggle whatsoever on motorway inclines at speed.

Nissan could have increased mid and top speed by altering power delivery and gearing but chose to have more power available at the low end probably because they thought the car would be used mainly in town and city driving.

cros13

ELM327 wrote: »

You could also buy a type1 to type2 adapter.

Those are technically not legal. Also not weatherproof.

Deleted User wrote: »

The leaf is lacking mid and top but it can certainly keep speed up on the motorway and doesn't struggle whatsoever on motorway inclines at speed.

Nissan could have increased mid and top speed by altering power delivery and gearing but chose to have more power available at the low end probably because they thought the car would be used mainly in town and city driving.

As I understand it from my Nissan sources, this is the case. They will allocate more toward mid-range acceleration.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

Apply more current and you get more acceleration, more voltage and you get more speed but both can be manipulated by software and gearing and of course the electronics, wiring etc dictate how much power can be delivered and also the motor and battery.

Motors are capable of taking huge peak bursts of power, especially liquid cooled motors. It would not surprise me if the Leaf motor could take twice the power, efficiency might drop but acceleration is not constant.

The leaf is lacking mid and top but it can certainly keep speed up on the motorway and doesn't struggle whatsoever on motorway inclines at speed.

Lacking compared to what? An ICE? No, it doesn't - the chart shows that...

Nissan could have increased mid and top speed by altering power delivery and gearing but chose to have more power available at the low end probably because they thought the car would be used mainly in town and city driving.

Power is limited not by the motor, but by how much the battery can deliver. Gearing won't produce power... So no, Nissan could not alter power delivery without compromising the health of the battery pack.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

Those are technically not legal. Also not weatherproof.



As I understand it from my Nissan sources, this is the case. They will allocate more toward mid-range acceleration.

They will. But that's really done not on purpose, but side effect of traction limitation.

Even with current Leaf, the low speed acceleration is limited by traction, not drive-train. With FWD you cannot really add more there and the new Leaf will offer very similar performance to the old one upto ~50 km/h, and the additional 40 PS of power the new Leaf comes will be felt from then. Around 60 km/h it will accelerate 30% faster than the current one (16 km·h⁻¹·s⁻¹ vs 12 km·h⁻¹·s⁻¹).

grogi

grogi wrote: »

Lacking compared to what? An ICE? No, it doesn't - the chart shows that...

Well actually compared to our Diesel Cee'd of similar power it is lacking at the mid and top end which is noticeable on the motorway. The Cee'd has the benefit of the gear box, however at lower speeds the Cee'd feels like it has half the power due to lag, revs, clutch and gears etc and as with most diesels of that power makes for rather frustrating driving after driving an EV for so long.

So power itself doesn't tell the whole story.

grogi wrote: »

Power is limited not by the motor, but by how much the battery can deliver. Gearing won't produce power... So no, Nissan could not alter power delivery without compromising the health of the battery pack.

Gearing won't produce power , I never said it would, if you read my post you will have read that by altering the gearing you can alter the power more for mid and top end power.

Software then controls the rest but so too does the motor and it's windings dictate the acceleration and top speed.

As I said electric motors can take much more than their rated power if kept cool provided it doesn't reach core saturation which will cause the motor to become a lot less efficient.

grogi

grogi wrote: »

They will. But that's really done not on purpose, but side effect of traction limitation.

Even with current Leaf, the low speed acceleration is limited by traction, not drive-train. With FWD you cannot really add more there and the new Leaf will offer very similar performance to the old one upto ~50 km/h, and the additional 40 PS of power the new Leaf comes will be felt from then. Around 60 km/h it will accelerate 30% faster than the current one (16 km·h⁻¹·s⁻¹ vs 12 km·h⁻¹·s⁻¹).

GM have 200 HP running through the front wheels of the Bolt EV.

You can have 300 HP also it doesn't matter because they don't have to apply so much low end torque at such low speeds and can make more power available at higher speeds and that 300 HP could be used to get higher speeds.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

GM have 200 HP running through the front wheels of the Bolt EV.

You can have 300 HP also it doesn't matter because they don't have to apply so much low end torque at such low speeds and can make more power available at higher speeds and that 300 HP could be used to get higher speeds.

And that's exactly what new Leaf will do. Up to ~50 km/h the torque will be limited and then full potential used. It will feel more powerful alright.

0-100 km/h in around 6.0 secs is the limitation for FWD car - that's what a Focus ST is capable of. If you want it faster, you need to go RWD or AWD. Upto 0-40 km/h current Leaf accelerates exactly that fast - around 17 ·h⁻¹·s⁻¹. But later runs out of power. New one will do it up to ~55 km/h.

Ah yeah it will be a decent power upgrade.

Shame the rear axle will still be the same that would improve handling just hope the steering has a lot more feel but I really doubt it.

DrPhilG

Phil Fitzgerald at Electric Autos sells the plugs, and I have a friend who is a genius with anything electronic so I reckon changing the plug shouldn't be hard.

The 10m 32a cable wasn't cheap.

grogi

DrPhilG wrote: »

Phil Fitzgerald at Electric Autos sells the plugs, and I have a friend who is a genius with anything electronic so I reckon changing the plug shouldn't be hard.

The 10m 32a cable wasn't cheap.

But as previously highlighted, it will not be waterproof...

I really hope the next Leaf does NOT have that horrible dreadful sounding BOSE pile of dirt sound system !!!

DrPhilG

grogi wrote: »

But as previously highlighted, it will not be waterproof...

Why wouldn't it he waterproof? I'm talking about removing the plug and replacing it.

It was the adaptor that was described as not waterproof wasn't it?

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

BoatMad is the expert but you can change the cable (as opposed to the connection).

i.e.
- Buy new type 2 cable
- Open EVSE and disconnect cable form controller
- Connect new cable

Im sure someone will find a youtube video somewhere of it being done.

Changing the connection can technically be done but requires more equipment (crimping if I remember correctly).

Changing the cable shouldn't be much more complicated than wiring a plug.... health warning is that I haven't done it so I'm only relaying here.

If you have a tethered cable changing the cable to a type 2 end is generally easy , certainly on the abl Rolec EVSEs that I have

Charging the plug itself requires hydraulic crimp tools

A converter cable is also an option

Ps properly done a retrofitted type 2 is fully waterproof

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

And that's exactly what new Leaf will do. Up to ~50 km/h the torque will be limited and then full potential used. It will feel more powerful alright.

0-100 km/h in around 6.0 secs is the limitation for FWD car - that's what a Focus ST is capable of. If you want it faster, you need to go RWD or AWD. Upto 0-40 km/h current Leaf accelerates exactly that fast - around 17 ·h⁻¹·s⁻¹. But later runs out of power. New one will do it up to ~55 km/h.

The torque curve of an electric motor is flat but the wind and rolling resistance are square laws.

Hence as you gain more speed a higher power output is needed to achieve greater aceletration

Low speed aceketation is largely governed by front wheel drive issues and is electronically governed

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Other than the spy shots confirming type2, I have not seen anything.
Would not hold out much hope for more than 7kW

Rumour has it they'd will be 11kw three phase option available

I.e. By using three 3.x modules

Same way by using two a single phase 7 kw will be offered

bp_me

BoatMad wrote: »

Rumour has it they'd will be 11kw three phase option available

I.e. By using three 3.x modules

Same way by using two a single phase 7 kw will be offered

This is a bizarre way to do it from a packaging point of view.

A single 11kw is nowhere near the volume (or weight) of 3x 3.6kw units.

I can see how it might have been a simple (lazy?) upgrade for them for leaf 1 but it would be odd to maintain that arrangement when they have the opportunity to repackage it for the new car...