2018 Leaf

DrPhilG

bk wrote: »

And we are all expecting a 40kw upgraded Ioniq in the next 6 months or so. That should give you 280km's, enough to get to Cork without stopping. So why would you buy this Leaf now with an upgraded Ioniq just around the corner?

Spoke to a clued in Hyundai dealer on Facebook today, he is not expecting the longer range Ioniq to land until late 2018 for a 2019 delivery.

I'm not buying anything new or now. I'll be buying something 1 year old. My aim was to change in late 2018 but that will only give me the Leaf 2 as an option.

My wife can't cope without 360 parking cameras which makes the Ioniq a non starter too sadly. Plus Ioniq 2 second hand won't be available until late 2019 which is later than I want to wait. By then my current car will be out of warranty and quite possibly down a bar which makes it much harder to shift.

bk

DrPhilG wrote: »

Spoke to a clued in Hyundai dealer on Facebook today, he is not expecting the longer range Ioniq to land until late 2018 for a 2019 delivery.

I wouldn't take any notice at all to what dealers tell you!

Firstly they almost never know what is happening at corporate level and secondly they just want to shift what they currently have and will always try and put you off on waiting for new upcoming models for obvious reasons.

Anyway, not relevant to my main point which is at motorway speeds I don't expect this new leaf to do much better then the current Ioniq. And it will still require one stop going to most of the cities in Ireland, so not really bringing much new to the table IMO.

cros13

unkel wrote:

Top speed limited to 90mph / 144km/h is the exact same as the old Leaf. That would have been too slow for me, and very possibly a deal breaker.

The Leaf's limiter varies by market. It's 160km/h in the Irish & UK market.

Falcon L

Dilemma time!

The Leaf II is less than I had hoped for, if I'm honest. But it does take a bit of the shine off the Ioniq.

When you spec up a Leaf to Ioniq levels, I suspect there will be little in it, price wise.

ELM327

cros13 wrote: »

The Leaf's limiter varies by market. It's 160km/h in the Irish & UK market.

160km/h indicated.
Which, when you remove 10% is 144km/h, or the real speed.

cros13

bk wrote:

And we are all expecting a 40kw upgraded Ioniq in the next 6 months or so. That should give you 280km's, enough to get to Cork without stopping. So why would you buy this Leaf now with an upgraded Ioniq just around the corner?

That upgraded Ioniq is dependent on battery supply shared with the Hyundai Kona EV. It's very probable that any battery supply issue will result in the Ioniq being pushed back giving preference for the Kona.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

My house to Dublin is 155 miles.

Yeah that is still a problem in anything except the Teslas. Even with very careful driving at no more than 90km/h, it is still a stretch in Ioniq, Zoe 41 or the new Leaf. Not something you could rely on, even in perfect circumstances.

Would you not be happy enough to go from 3 stops to 1 stop though? All those cars can do that at the speed limits. And maybe no stops in your 60kWh car that you will get after your next car in a few years time?

DrPhilG

bk wrote: »

I wouldn't take any notice at all to what dealers tell you!

I generally don't, but this is coming from a Hyundai dealer who joined the EV owners page to educate himself because Hyundai were failing to do so!

I don't doubt his information and I certainly don't think he's just spoofing to try and sell cars. I asked him for info on the next Hyundai because I was looking for an escape route from Leaf 2 so his best move would have been to BS me and tell me it was just around the corner rather than telling me it's going to be later rather than sooner.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Would you not be happy enough to go from 3 stops to 1 stop though? All those cars can do that at the speed limits. And maybe no stops in your 60kWh car that you will get after your next car in a few years time?

I would be happy, but I had hoped that my next car would be a long term one, the 40kwh Leaf will just be a stop gap which is not as financially beneficial.

thierry14

ELM327 wrote: »

160km/h indicated.
Which, when you remove 10% is 144km/h, or the real speed.

160 indicated isnt too bad then

Thought limit was 144 on speedo itself

How would ir compare to 150bhp tdi in acceleration?

Feep better/ more similar to a 170bhp tdi Golf etc when doing 80 - 120, 50 - 100 etc

I3 I heard feels like a 200bhp Gti in terms of acceleration, even though it only has 170bhp

thelikelylad

bk wrote: »

It Is EPA range of 200km for the Ioniq, 240km for the new Leaf

But remember, that includes city and mixed driving. Where the Ioniq excels is motorway driving at motorway speeds, thanks to it's low drag. I suspect due to it's worse cd, the new Leaf will only perform about the same as the current 28 Ioniq on motorways, maybe even a little worse.

And it is really at motorway speeds that we need to see EV range improving at. No one really cares too much about range pottering around a city, that is already more then fine. It is range for the weekend trip where EV's are poor.

And we are all expecting a 40kw upgraded Ioniq in the next 6 months or so. That should give you 280km's, enough to get to Cork without stopping. So why would you buy this Leaf now with an upgraded Ioniq just around the corner?

Spot on. To me extra range is of no advantage around the city or during the week when I'm doing small miles - I could probably live with a 10kWh EV and just plug-in every night if needed. For my next EV I expect a big increase in practical motorway range, ie. Dublin - Cork without stopping. People rave about the Zoe's extra range when it's only really applicable off the motorway.

I'm interested to see how fast the Leaf charges and how efficient it is at motorway speeds. I've seen charging figures of ~80% in 40mins mentioned?

- Leaf 80% or ~192km range in 40mins
- IONIQ 94% or ~188km range in 35mins

So if you're suggesting that an IONIQ could match the motorway range of the 40kWh Leaf or vice versa, then it could be faster to do a long motorway trip ie. Cork - Belfast in a 28kWh IONIQ than a 40kWh Leaf. That would be very interesting.

If Hyundai sort out their supply issues and can release a 40kWh pack they should be well positioned to hurt Leaf sales.

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

160 indicated isnt too bad then

Thought limit was 144 on speedo itself

How would ir compare to 150bhp tdi in acceleration?

Feep better/ more similar to a 170bhp tdi Golf etc when doing 80 - 120, 50 - 100 etc

I3 I heard feels like a 200bhp Gti in terms of acceleration, even though it only has 170bhp

I've owned a mark4 golf 150bhp.
The leaf is quicker off the line but between 35 and 45km/h the golf will be alongside and the leaf will be trailing in the dust and smoke by 60.


Regarding acceleration the leaf is quicker for the first second (certainly feels it) but once the TDI turbo kicks in (in a 150bhp) it's away. A 90bhp passat or SDI golf would be slower by some margin at 100km/h and below.

I have never driven an i3 but Mad Lad has driven both an i3 and a leaf and from memory said the i3 was much faster.

Again these are all my opinions having owned the cars in question. I am aware it is subjective and far from empirical.

grogi

ELM327 wrote: »

I've owned a mark4 golf 150bhp.
The leaf is quicker off the line but between 35 and 45km/h the golf will be alongside and the leaf will be trailing in the dust and smoke by 60.

From the line, the Leaf acceleratation is effectively limited by traction. But it is not hard to imagine that Golf being faster later, if it has around 50% more maximum power.

ELM327 wrote: »

Regarding acceleration the leaf is quicker for the first second (certainly feels it) but once the TDI turbo kicks in (in a 150bhp) it's away. A 90bhp passat or SDI golf would be slower by some margin at 100km/h and below.

It's not about the turbo kicking in, it works all the time. An ICE just needs revolutions to deliver full power...

unkel

thierry14 wrote: »

How would ir compare to 150bhp tdi in acceleration?

Old Leaf was officially about 12s to 100km/h but tested at 10s. New Leaf is officially 10s, but I'd say with the substantial power increase (40%) and only tiny weight increase it will be more like 8s

So faster than any 150bhp tdi of the same size all the way up to 100km/h (typical 2l 150BHP diesel will be about 9-10s) and it will be a lot faster in the first bit, say from 0-50km/h away from the lights. Even if the diesel would be an automatic, but it probably is a manual. You need to work a manual diesel hard to even get close to the official figures where in an EV all it takes is plant your right foot...

I get a lot of funny looking faces in Ioniq (0-100km/h also in about 8s) in my rear view mirror from Audi A4 RS4 1.9TDI brigade. This does not get old

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

How would ir compare to 150bhp tdi in acceleration?

Feep better/ more similar to a 170bhp tdi Golf etc when doing 80 - 120, 50 - 100 etc

I3 I heard feels like a 200bhp Gti in terms of acceleration, even though it only has 170bhp

ELM327 wrote: »

I've owned a mark4 golf 150bhp.
The leaf is quicker off the line but between 35 and 45km/h the golf will be alongside and the leaf will be trailing in the dust and smoke by 60.

Regarding acceleration the leaf is quicker for the first second (certainly feels it) but once the TDI turbo kicks in (in a 150bhp) it's away. A 90bhp passat or SDI golf would be slower by some margin at 100km/h and below.

The official Nissan blurb says

"... linear driving performance with a power output of 110 kW. Torque has been increased to 320 Nm, resulting in improved acceleration."

That should improve things as the current Leaf certainly isn't linear in performance.


Additionally they have said

"Nissan will introduce a high-power version with increased motor power and battery capacity at a higher price at the end of 2018. This version will provide an even longer range, giving customers a range choice depending on their driving needs."

slicedpanman

A couple of questions for those in the know;

• Is there any plans for Android Auto in Leaf 2?
• Any improvements to Nissan Connect? (I saw an LTE logo in one of the screen shots but that could be from a connected iPhone)
• Someone mentioned that the presentation this morning talked about OTA updates - anyone know what Nissan plan to deliver using OTA? Maps? Software updates?

DrPhilG

Android Auto is confirmed I believe.

No clue on the others.

josip

Review
http://newatlas.com/nissan-leaf-reveal-tokyo/51214/

cros13

slicedpanman wrote: »

A couple of questions for those in the know;
[*]Is there any plans for Android Auto in Leaf 2?

CarPlay and Android Auto

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*]Any improvements to Nissan Connect? (I saw an LTE logo in one of the screen shots but that could be from a connected iPhone)

Yes some platform improvements including an LTE telematics modem. Plans for subscription services like in-car WiFi in the works in select markets.

slicedpanman wrote: »

[*]Someone mentioned that the presentation this morning talked about OTA updates - anyone know what Nissan plan to deliver using OTA? Maps? Software updates?
[/list]

Software updates.

stesaurus

thierry14 wrote: »

160 indicated isnt too bad then

Thought limit was 144 on speedo itself

How would ir compare to 150bhp tdi in acceleration?

Feep better/ more similar to a 170bhp tdi Golf etc when doing 80 - 120, 50 - 100 etc

I3 I heard feels like a 200bhp Gti in terms of acceleration, even though it only has 170bhp

Really good to see you on here and being positive about EV's. I remember feeling like we were banging our heads against a wall explaining the torque etc.

i3 is definitely up there in regards performance, must give you a quick spin in one some day!

cros13

Autocar now reporting that Nissan will unveil an electric SUV at the Tokyo auto show this month. Slightly larger than the quashqai using the Leaf powertrain, release for the 191 reg.
Electric sedan to follow.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motor-shows-tokyo-motor-show/nissan-reveal-electric-suv-join-leaf

In other news, spoke to someone at Nissan. Expect details on the european Leaf launch at the Frankfurt show next week. Maybe some other news too.

bk

cros13 wrote: »

CarPlay and Android Auto

Seems to be only on the mid-teir SV model, not part of the basic 40kw S model.

cros13 wrote: »

Autocar now reporting that Nissan will unveil an electric SUV at the Tokyo auto show this month. Slightly larger than the quashqai using the Leaf powertrain, release for the 191 reg.
Electric sedan to follow.

I'd be surprised if it was bigger then the Quashqai, if it is based on the Leaf platform, then something closer to the Juke would make sense and that would line up more as a competitor to the Kona.

grogi

bk wrote: »

Seems to be only on the mid-teir SV model, not part of the basic 40kw S model.



I'd be surprised if it was bigger then the Quashqai, if it is based on the Leaf platform, then something closer to the Juke would make sense and that would line up more as a competitor to the Kona.

Juke is a subcompact SUV, built on Clio/Micra/Note/Captur underlying. Leaf is way bigger, and hence a SUV on Leaf platform should be Quashqai size, which is a C-Suv (Kompact SUV).

cros13

bk wrote: »

Seems to be only on the mid-teir SV model, not part of the basic 40kw S model.

The S model in the US is the XE here and would not be a spec most on boards would recommend to a first time EV owner. Some fairly essential options like the heat pump have been left out of the XE in the past.
XE is fine for a second car if you know what you are buying (and for that you'd practically have to have already been a Leaf owner).

bk wrote: »

I'd be surprised if it was bigger then the Quashqai, if it is based on the Leaf platform, then something closer to the Juke would make sense and that would line up more as a competitor to the Kona.

The Leaf is way bigger than a lot of people seem to think. It's as tall as the last gen quashqai (and only 55mm less than the current) with a 70mm longer wheelbase (2700mm vs 2630mm) than the current quashqai.

An SUV based on the Leaf platform would naturally be a similar size to the 7-seater quashqai+2 and certainly a little bit taller.

grogi wrote: »

Juke is built on Clio/Micra/Note underlying, Leaf is way bigger; hence a SUV on Leaf platform should be Quashqai size, which is a C-Suv (Kompact SUV).

There is an electric Juke sized car on the way as well.

And in related news Nissan are offering a free gift to people putting a reservation down in the US before January 22nd (https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/):
Apple Watch Series 2, GoPro HERO5 Black, or a Nest Thermostat and Nest Cam and Google Home bundle

Soarer

cros13 wrote: »

In other news, spoke to someone at Nissan. Expect details on the european Leaf launch at the Frankfurt show next week. Maybe some other news too.

Ah come on! You can't tease us like that.

Electric Micra?

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

There is an electric Juke sized car on the way as well.

There must be SUV each size - B, C and D - if they want to really get into the EV business. That's what sells now.

bk

grogi wrote: »

Juke is a subcompact SUV, built on Clio/Micra/Note/Captur underlying. Leaf is way bigger, and hence a SUV on Leaf platform should be Quashqai size, which is a C-Suv (Kompact SUV).

You are correct, I just compared the numbers, my bad. That would make it a really interesting vehicle so. Though 40kw in a SUV that big is going to have terrible range, sounds like it would need to be at least 50kw.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

You are correct, I just compared the numbers, my bad. That would make it a really interesting vehicle so. Though 40kw in a SUV that big is going to have terrible range, sounds like it would need to be at least 50kw.

Considering the dropoff in range between the 100kWh model S and model X, I would agree.
60kWh is the minimum I would expect to see in a Qashqai sized SUV

cros13

Soarer wrote: »

Ah come on! You can't tease us like that.

Electric Micra?

I asked about the Micra EV, Note e-power and the eNV200 and was told we'd see one or the other.

ELM327 wrote: »

Considering the dropoff in range between the 100kWh model S and model X, I would agree.
60kWh is the minimum I would expect to see in a Qashqai sized SUV

Well it's going to hit the road the same time as the 60kWh Leaf.

NIMAN

The new Leaf is nice, if slightly generic looking.

I used to think the 1St leaf was ugly, but it's growing on me.

KCross

A usually fairly reliable Nissan dealer(on SpeakEV) in the UK who is in Nissan HQ today said...

Will be October before we get European pricing confirmed. Finance deals may take longer. Deliveries will commence in January.

On the plus side, I had confirmation today that all European LEAF will come with 6.6kW charger as standard (even Visia).

So, at least it has 6.6kW as standard.

ELM327

That's very slow.
In my opinion it confirms that EV manufacturers do not see a future in AC charging.

unkel

6.6kW is ok for home charging a 40kWh battery. Takes a bit over 6 hours from empty to full, and how often is it completely empty?

It was a disgrace that Nissan charged €900 extra for it in the previous Leaf. On top of the €900 for the granny cable. The two together wouldn't have cost them much more than €100 to make / source.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

That's very slow.
In my opinion it confirms that EV manufacturers do not see a future in AC charging.

I dont understand how thats very slow in the context of overnight domestic charging?
6kWh to your battery every hour so over a full night rate you have 54kWh.... the car is only 40kWh!!
So, it will also be good enough, at that rate, for the 60kWh Leaf that is rumoured for late 2018.

Certainly don't agree that its a sign of no future in AC charging.

ELM327

Yes but there is no progression.
Which means probably the 60kWh version will only have 6.6 also.

When they are part of RenaultNissan and don't use the shared tech with Renault 22kW AC it is a bit ridiculous.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

I dont understand how thats very slow in the context of overnight domestic charging?

Certainly don't agree that its a sign of no future in AC charging.

Do you think there is a future in AC charging?

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but there is no progression.
Which means probably the 60kWh version will only have 6.6 also.

When they are part of RenaultNissan and don't use the shared tech with Renault 22kW AC it is a bit ridiculous.

The progression is that its standard now. €900 extra prior to this.

The 22kW AC is no use to you at home because the standard domestic connection only has a total of about 12kW and you can't use all that for the car. You have to leave some for your house so I don't see your point of view.

22kW AC is really only useful for public 3 phase charging and I'd suggest that AC in that context has no future. DC is the way to go there.

ELM327 wrote: »

Do you think there is a future in AC charging?

Yes. Do you think DC charging at home is going to be the norm in the next 10years? If you do you have a better crystal ball than me.

Everyone has AC today, why change to DC at home? Extra cost, little or no gain.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

The progression is that its standard now. €900 extra prior to this.

The 22kW AC is no use to you at home because the standard domestic connection only has a total of about 12kW and you can't use all that for the car. You have to leave some for your house so I don't see your point of view.

22kW AC is really only useful for public 3 phase charging and I'd suggest that AC in that context has no future. DC is the way to go there.




Yes. Do you think DC charging at home is going to be the norm in the next 10years? If you do you have a better crystal ball than me.

Everyone has AC today, why change to DC at home? Extra cost, little or no gain.

DC in 10 years if not sooner will be the main mode of charging.
The reason I asked the question is it's not really worthwhile debating this issue as there is no way of proving that my best guess is any way better or worse than your (or anyones) best guess.

AC is not a scalable tech. You can change your home connection to a 22kW three phase supply quite easily via ESBN. But I will suggest that AC will be limited to 22kW in the public domain from now on. No further 43kW charging will be installed.

DC is the future imo. I believe people will have DC at home to charge (at a lower power than the current ecars units of course) and DC high speed public charging as well at cost. We don't carry 2/3 standards in other areas we have 1.

I disagree with the little or no gain, the battery is DC and it would make sense to charge in DC. The only reason home charging (or AC charging at all really) exists in AC is because "thats what was there". If someone engineered EV from scratch to where we are now instantaneously without the 7 years from 2010 to now, there would be no AC at all, the battery would be charged on DC (and probably power a DC motor too).


At the end of the day, this is my best guess I don't see a way to prove it empirically or disprove it really until the passage of time. Like fast charging will move to CCS only, moving away from FastAC43 and Chademo, slower charging will also move, albeit slower, to CCS DC

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

DC in 10 years if not sooner will be the main mode of charging.

And you are specifically referring to domestic charging there, not public?

Why do you think DC should take over from AC when we already have AC. Whats the benefit and does that benefit make financial sense considering AC is already ubiquitous?

ELM327 wrote: »

AC is not a scalable tech.

I don't understand that. Its in every house in the country. You can't get much more scalable than that?!

Even if every car had DC only charging your would still be limited by the total power available at your local transformer to your house. AC or DC makes not a jot of difference to that.

ELM327 wrote: »

You can change your home connection to a 22kW three phase supply quite easily via ESBN.

Not really true in practice. You can, of course, contact ESBn and tell them you want 3 phase and get a connection upgrade upto, IIRC, 30kW or thereabouts. But it will cost you many thousands for that. I can't see that changing in 10 years as the ground work required to give people 3 phase all over the country would be huge and would have to be paid for with little gain... particularly if the only driver is EV.

ELM327 wrote: »

DC is the future imo. I believe people will have DC at home to charge (at a lower power than the current ecars units of course) and DC high speed public charging as well at cost. We don't carry 2/3 standards in other areas we have 1.

But why? What do you gain?
There is a small gain from removing the charger from the car but you then have to have an inverter in the house so there is nothing for nothing and certainly no speed increase which was what your original reply was about... "Thats very slow"

ELM327 wrote: »

I disagree with the little or no gain, the battery is DC and it would make sense to charge in DC. The only reason home charging (or AC charging at all really) exists in AC is because "thats what was there". If someone engineered EV from scratch to where we are now instantaneously without the 7 years from 2010 to now, there would be no AC at all, the battery would be charged on DC (and probably power a DC motor too).

Right, I agree with that, but the reality is that we do have AC in every house and I can't see the entire country changing their domestic systems to DC.


Maybe we misunderstand each other? Maybe all you are just saying is all EV's will have DC only chargers and you will have a DC charger at home but the rest of the house will be AC as it is today?

If its just that then fine but you will still be bound by the limit of your local transformer which will still have you limited to <12kW for a standard connection. You won't be seeing 22kW DC charging at home any time soon!

And do you really need to charge overnight faster than 6.6kW. I don't think you do, unless you have a 75kWH+ car and even then its debatable whether you would need it unless you were using the full 75kWh's everyday (500+km)

unkel

You all know I'm no fan of AC charging (in public)

But home AC charging at 6.6kW is fine for the overwhelming majority of people, even if they have a 60kWh car. And there is very little reason for econobox EVs to go significantly beyond that. The average daily km per car in Ireland is less than 50km per day. Even if you did 4 times the average, your 60kWh battery would only be about half empty, so charging would take about 4.5 hours.

Now of course there will be people traversing the European continent regularly or driving E-W in the USA and they might very well end up with 250kWh batteries that can't really be charged at home. But for 95% of the people 6.6kW home charging will do nicely and cheaply for a very long time to come. A more pertinent issue will develop for 2+ EV households imho. And the more urgent issue again is how to cater for people that can't charge at home / people driving cross country. These people (as in the majority of EV owners) need a lot more fast chargers, very quickly.

cros13

Another new feature that escaped notice, Blind spot warning in the mirrors.

macnab

Keep an eye out for GOM estimates when watching 2018 Leaf videos.
So far I have seen 300km at 94% and 151miles at 91%. Obviously its impossible to tell what sort of trips the cars are doing ie fast, slow etc.
I still think that the 150mi/240km range mentioned in the release are low ball estimates to prevent red faces when the first real world test results appear on Youtube.

unkel

I would tend to agree with you there macnab. EPA test isn't really that heavy on 120km/h driving, so if the car is overall about 10% less efficient than Ioniq, it should get 90% * 40/28 * 200km = 260km EPA range. Which I think is probably a reasonably realistic estimate of EPA.

DrPhilG

I hope the guessometer is a bit less shyte than the current one.

Whether you have AC or DC at home the old problem of lack of power still applies. Two EV's charging at 7 Kw and bang goes your main ESB fuse without upgrading your single phase.

It's inevitable we'll see faster and faster charging but it could be 5+ years before we see above 100 Kw in Ireland for non Tesla owners.

There's nothing to stop the ESB installing 20 Kw DC points instead of AC points, I could car less as long as I can get a decent top up.

7 Kw will charge a 60 Kwh battery when you need it no problem and it's rare a 60 Kwh battery will be 100% discharged except maybe for those that do not want to plug in every night.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1112505_nine-things-you-should-know-about-the-2018-nissan-leaf-electric-car/page-2

Nissan engineers said the 40-kwh pack in the 2018 car uses the same form factor and connections as the earlier car's battery.



Interesting......

The electric motor that drives the 2018 Leaf's front wheels is the same one as in earlier Leafs, but Nissan has revised the control software to open up considerably more power.



So drivetrain unchanged, electronics also deemed unchanged, this is really sounding like the same OLD leaf.......

I do like the interior !

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

So drivetrain unchanged, electronics also deemed unchanged, this is really sounding like the same OLD leaf.......

Because it was the battery, not the motor, that was limiting the power. It was obvious from the acceleration charts.

cros13

New product video (subtitles for english):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2SA1CtCUfA

goz83

No spare wheel?!!!

Ah lads, that's the most disappointing part. Aside from the looks, that was the biggest complaint with the leaf. :pac:

I think they have done conservatively well with this model.