2018 Leaf

goz83 · 07-09-2017 12:01pm

I could never understand people throwing a ten or twenty into the tank. I always filled the tank and wouldn't go near the pumps again until I had a quarter or less. Only exception to that rule was if I was going on a very long journey and had less than half a tank. Why would you want to visit a pump anymore than is absolutely necessary.

unkel · 07-09-2017 12:05pm

goz83 wrote: »

I could never understand people throwing a ten or twenty into the tank. I always filled the tank and wouldn't go near the pumps again until I had a quarter or less. Only exception to that rule was if I was going on a very long journey and had less than half a tank. Why would you want to visit a pump anymore than is absolutely necessary.

It's not logical. But most people in Ireland do it!

Same as most people here buy a single pack of fags at a time. Even if that means they have to go to the shop to buy cigarettes every day, or even twice a day!

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 12:07pm

unkel wrote: »

In this country you are! In most of the rest of Europe, most people fill up the tank every time until it is full. And top up when empty. Just like you.

From my personal observations over the past 25 years or so, the most common fill up in Ireland used to be £20 in the 90s, then it went straight to €50 when the Euro was introduced in the early 00s. And back down to €20 during the recession.

I remember when a £20 topup would fill my rover 414 from nearly empty to full! Ah the 90's. Good times.

unkel · 07-09-2017 12:11pm

Indeed! For most of the 90s petrol was about 55p/l

Insurance was the big pain back then. Young people now don't know how good they have it insurance wise (says the old man)

KCross · 07-09-2017 12:19pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I understand the grid limitation, but a separate metered connection for your DC home charger allows you to take the full ~11kW for the car. No one is talking about 22kW at home.

People equate DC charging to high speed, that's what it is mostly now, but there's no reason it can't change and supply low speed.

As I say, the only reason AC even exists in the EV world at all is because currently it is (a) ubiquitous and (b) cheaper right now to install.

DC in the long term will be cheaper due to economies of scale. I can buy a 10kW home DC charger for €4k at the moment. They are not readily available for mass market but some germans have started selling them for AC to CCS, a chademo equivalent is also available from China. I can install a slower 6kW AC unit for probably 10% of that cost. But if I have a 60/80/100kWh battery (or two EV) then perhaps charging faster is more important.

I hope you're wrong!

I don't like the idea of having to pay two standing charges, two PSO levies etc.

If someone feels they need 11kW home charging I suppose they can do that today by upgrading from 12kVA to 16kVA (costs ~€1150) which should leave them with enough headroom to run the house while 11kW is going to the car(s).

I'd also wonder if having a separate connection just for the car would be a good use of resources. It would be idle most of the time and why would I take on that extra cost when my current AC connection can handle two EV's already.

I don't think 7kW is "very slow" though whether it is AC or DC. 11kW would be better of course but not really required for the masses unless you have two long distance commuters in the house with two EV's using the full range everyday.... they should look at moving house if they are burning that amount of juice!

07-09-2017 12:22pm

2 x 7 Kw EV's would be a stretch on an upgraded 16 Kva supply.

What would be great is switchable EVSE's where you can decide what charge rate you want, 10 a, 15, 20 , 30 etc. The highest setting when you need to charge faster.

Or better yet, if you could set this in the car charger menu.

grogi · 07-09-2017 12:24pm

thierry14 wrote: »

How would the new 150bhp Leaf do against a 150bhp 2.0TDi Golf I imagine

Leaf will be faster

thierry14 wrote: »

In the image below it's says Leaf 2 makes 147bhp between 3k and 9k revs

Does that mean it has full bhp over that long rev range? Or am I wrong?

Yes, it has it over that.

With slower speeds it could as well, but there is no point as the traction is the limiting factor then.

thierry14 wrote: »

So does it have full bhp on tap between 40kmh - 140kmh?

Yes

thierry14 wrote: »

Diesels and petrols don't work like that? They only have between say 5k-7k/3k-4k revs and then change gear and repeat

Exactly. But the power drop between the gear changes isn't massive though.

In the chart below you see that during the OPTIMAL acceleration of the 120 bhp diesel (red), the power does not drop below 100 bhp.

KCross · 07-09-2017 12:25pm

josip wrote: »

I must be an exception then, drive 800km, refill, drive 800km, refill,...

ELM327 wrote: »

I fill up brim the neck, till I can see the fuel at the top!
Cost me €75 the last time I brimmed the tank and that was with a quarter left. I regularly get over 1000km from a tank of fuel. I just don't drive the diesel for anything much these days unless really needed.

As above.
We were a 2 diesel house. Would have always filled up and ran to empty on both cars and then fill up again. Cant see why you would bother with €20. It just means you are having to go to the petrol station more often. Who wants to be handling smelly diesel handles every week!

I could understand it for those tight on money where €20 might be all they have.

Each to their own and all that.

thierry14 · 07-09-2017 12:29pm

grogi wrote: »

Leaf will be faster

Yes, it has it over that.

With slower speeds it could as well, but there is no point as the traction is the limiting factor then.

Yes

Exactly. But the power drop between the gear changes isn't massive though.

In the chart below you see that during the OPTIMAL acceleration of the 120 bhp diesel (red), the power does not drop below 100 bhp.

Good answer grogi

Leaf 2 has plenty of grunt then

KCross · 07-09-2017 12:30pm

Deleted User wrote: »

2 x 7 Kw EV's would be a stretch on an upgraded 16 Kva supply.

What would be great is switchable EVSE's where you can decide what charge rate you want, 10 a, 15, 20 , 30 etc. The highest setting when you need to charge faster.

Or better yet, if you could set this in the car charger menu.

Correct, it would be a stretch.
It would have to be Amp limited and load shared by the EVSE like the Tesla Wall Connector does.

That will have to be the long term solution for a 2 EV house.

Shefwedfan · 07-09-2017 12:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

2 x 7 Kw EV's would be a stretch on an upgraded 16 Kva supply.

What would be great is switchable EVSE's where you can decide what charge rate you want, 10 a, 15, 20 , 30 etc. The highest setting when you need to charge faster.

Or better yet, if you could set this in the car charger menu.

In the eGOlf you are able to set the charge rate via on board computer. Never had to use it but could be useful

unkel · 07-09-2017 12:40pm

KCross wrote: »

That will have to be the long term solution for a 2 EV house.

+1

With some programmable smarts to control which vehicle has priority. Min / max end charge times and charge percentages per vehicle at given times, etc.

Dardania · 07-09-2017 1:07pm

unkel wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

That will have to be the long term solution for a 2 EV house.

+1

With some programmable smarts to control which vehicle has priority. Min / max end charge times and charge percentages per vehicle at given times, etc.

I'd like my kettle to take priority over the cars! Someone here about a year ago posted to a home EVSE that would adapt based on the incoming supply to the house, in order to accomodate your MIC. That's the way to do it, in conjunction with Tesla's supply sharing tech between multiple EVs

KCross · 07-09-2017 1:14pm

Dardania wrote: »

I'd like my kettle to take priority over the cars! Someone here about a year ago posted to a home EVSE that would adapt based on the incoming supply to the house, in order to accomodate your MIC. That's the way to do it, in conjunction with Tesla's supply sharing tech between multiple EVs

Do you usually get up at 3am for Coffee?!

I get your point though. That "feature" Im sure will be part of the next generation of EVSE's. They already exist just not at the cheap of the market, which is what we all have at the moment.

la ultima guagua · 07-09-2017 1:30pm

Many of the mansions built during the boom have 3 phase supply.

What are the ( ESB networks ) max power options applicable for such ( relatively ) small 3ph supplies & standing changes of same ?

KCross · 07-09-2017 1:33pm

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Many of the mansions built during the boom have 3 phase supply.

What are the ( ESB networks ) max power options applicable for such ( relatively ) small 3ph supplies & standing changes of same ?

No bother getting it, just a small matter of cost!

Page 5...
https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/esb-networks-dac-statement-of-charges.pdf?sfvrsn=16

Its the "... plus MV network charges" are the issue. They are currently in the thousands in this country. It depends on how far the nearest 3 phase supply is from your house. If there is a pole outside your door with 3 phase on it then it might be small but for most it will be high cost to get 3 phase supplied.

07-09-2017 1:40pm

There's 3 phase running over my garden but a transformer would have to be installed, no biggie because the pole is in the garden but the cost would be ridiculous.

The Black Oil · 07-09-2017 1:40pm

How she's made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CGMGDK9_SY

unkel · 07-09-2017 1:45pm

KCross wrote: »

Its the "... plus MV network charges" are the issue. They are currently in the thousands in this country. It depends on how far the nearest 3 phase supply is from your house. If there is a pole outside your door with 3 phase on it then it might be small

Still 2.5 grand plus MV network charges. So we are talking 3k-4k minimum here. No thanks.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 2:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

2 x 7 Kw EV's would be a stretch on an upgraded 16 Kva supply.

What would be great is switchable EVSE's where you can decide what charge rate you want, 10 a, 15, 20 , 30 etc. The highest setting when you need to charge faster.

Or better yet, if you could set this in the car charger menu.

Yes, you cannot charge 2 EV at home at 7kW. You cannot charge 2 at 6kW either, if you have anything at all running. I found in my (theoretical) calculations that the most I could spare was approx 8-9kW to avoid cutting the main fuse. Therefore that means one 6kW EV charging and one via granny cable. If I could have 2 charging at 4kW via load balancing that would be best again, but it's not possible to charge two EV at home if either (or especially both) takes more than 3.3kW.

cros13 · 07-09-2017 2:38pm

who_ru wrote: »

I read on this thread a while back the the new Leaf will cost €25k, is there any confirmation of this officially?

Well we have official confirmation from Nissan that the US base price is dropping by $690 for the new Leaf. No confirmed prices for Ireland but it's a good bet they'll either stay the same as the 30kWh (starts at €23.5k for the XE + delivery) or drop slightly.

thierry14 wrote: »

How would the new 150bhp Leaf do against a 150bhp 2.0TDi Golf I imagine

The leaf would be way faster, particularly at lower speeds. As grogi pointed out it's the benefit of that wide power band and also the high torque from low RPM.

For an illustration:

The Ioniq hybrid has 104kW (139hp) combined output and has a curb weight of 1360kg
The Ioniq electric has 88kW (118hp) output and a curb weight of 1435kg

The electric Ioniq is over a second faster to 100km/h than the hybrid.

Dardania wrote: »

I'd like my kettle to take priority over the cars! Someone here about a year ago posted to a home EVSE that would adapt based on the incoming supply to the house, in order to accomodate your MIC.

BMW's new Wallbox Connect chargepoints do exactly that, they have a monitoring unit between your consumer unit and ESB meter and dynamically allocate the space left up to the MIC between all the chargepoints in the property.

ELM327 · 07-09-2017 2:39pm

unkel wrote: »

Indeed! For most of the 90s petrol was about 55p/l

Insurance was the big pain back then. Young people now don't know how good they have it insurance wise (says the old man)

North of £3k in some parts. Which is probably equivalent to at least €5k these days, at least!

KCross wrote: »

I hope you're wrong!
I don't like the idea of having to pay two standing charges, two PSO levies etc.

If someone feels they need 11kW home charging I suppose they can do that today by upgrading from 12kVA to 16kVA (costs ~€1150) which should leave them with enough headroom to run the house while 11kW is going to the car(s).

I'd also wonder if having a separate connection just for the car would be a good use of resources. It would be idle most of the time and why would I take on that extra cost when my current AC connection can handle two EV's already.

I don't think 7kW is "very slow" though whether it is AC or DC. 11kW would be better of course but not really required for the masses unless you have two long distance commuters in the house with two EV's using the full range everyday.... they should look at moving house if they are burning that amount of juice!

For me it would not be idle most of the time.
I charge a lot at home (4k EV km per month on average), and when we move to a dual EV home it will be closer to 5k km.

My house (and any house I am aware of with standard connection) (see previous post) cannot charge 2 ev at 6.6kW.

positron · 07-09-2017 2:56pm

This new Leaf looks alright I think, they will sell truck loads of them.

KCross · 07-09-2017 3:15pm

ELM327 wrote: »

For me it would not be idle most of the time.
I charge a lot at home (4k EV km per month on average), and when we move to a dual EV home it will be closer to 5k km.

My house (and any house I am aware of with standard connection) (see previous post) cannot charge 2 ev at 6.6kW.

Load sharing is the key. If you have two 7kW cars you won't charge both of them at max at the same time. You will allocate, say, 80% of your MIC to the EVSE and it gives that out to the two cars. No big deal and no need for upgrades and plenty available capacity at night.

e.g. Standard 12kVA connection has a 60A fuse. You allocate 48A to the EVSE. You plug the two 7kW cars in and when you get up in the morning you have taken ~90kWh's across the two cars. Thats ~700km worth of juice everyday!

If its not enough, upgrade to 16kVA and allocate more amps to the EVSE.

thierry14 · 07-09-2017 3:35pm

cros13 wrote: »

Well we have official confirmation from Nissan that the US base price is dropping by $690 for the new Leaf. No confirmed prices for Ireland but it's a good bet they'll either stay the same as the 30kWh (starts at €23.5k for the XE + delivery) or drop slightly.

The leaf would be way faster, particularly at lower speeds. As grogi pointed out it's the benefit of that wide power band and also the high torque from low RPM.

For an illustration:

The Ioniq hybrid has 104kW (139hp) combined output and has a curb weight of 1360kg
The Ioniq electric has 88kW (118hp) output and a curb weight of 1435kg

The electric Ioniq is over a second faster to 100km/h than the hybrid.

Interesting

Even when you take away the advantage from a dig, it's still very close

40-140

17.8 vs 17.4

Ioniq EV is over 100kg heavier and down 20bhp

Way inferior power to weight

13kg/bhp vs 10.8bhp

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel6659-6480.htm

07-09-2017 5:13pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, you cannot charge 2 EV at home at 7kW. You cannot charge 2 at 6kW either, if you have anything at all running. I found in my (theoretical) calculations that the most I could spare was approx 8-9kW to avoid cutting the main fuse. Therefore that means one 6kW EV charging and one via granny cable. If I could have 2 charging at 4kW via load balancing that would be best again, but it's not possible to charge two EV at home if either (or especially both) takes more than 3.3kW.

To be honest 3.5 Kw will suffice for the majority of people's needs. That's 7 Kw total.

3 Kw into the battery over 8 hrs winter 11pm-8am or Summer Midnight to 9am

That's 27 Kwh, and so what if someone needs to run into peak time for 2-3 hrs ?

Falcon L · 07-09-2017 5:26pm

I wonder when they'll be available for test drives.

07-09-2017 5:28pm

I was truly disappointed to see the 2018 Leaf still has the horrible sounding BOSE system !

If I get this car the first thing I'll be doing is a speaker upgrade and removing that junk rear sub !

goz83 · 07-09-2017 5:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was truly disappointed to see the 2018 Leaf still has the horrible sounding BOSE system !

If I get this car the first thing I'll be doing is a speaker upgrade and removing that junk rear sub !

I'll take that junk off your hands if you do want rid. I won't even charge you

Dardania · 07-09-2017 5:48pm

cros13 wrote: »

who_ru wrote: »

I read on this thread a while back the the new Leaf will cost €25k, is there any confirmation of this officially?

Well we have official confirmation from Nissan that the US base price is dropping by $690 for the new Leaf. No confirmed prices for Ireland but it's a good bet they'll either stay the same as the 30kWh (starts at €23.5k for the XE + delivery) or drop slightly.

thierry14 wrote: »

How would the new 150bhp Leaf do against a 150bhp 2.0TDi Golf I imagine

The leaf would be way faster, particularly at lower speeds. As grogi pointed out it's the benefit of that wide power band and also the high torque from low RPM.

For an illustration:

The Ioniq hybrid has 104kW (139hp) combined output and has a curb weight of 1360kg
The Ioniq electric has 88kW (118hp) output and a curb weight of 1435kg

The electric Ioniq is over a second faster to 100km/h than the hybrid.

Dardania wrote: »

I'd like my kettle to take priority over the cars! Someone here about a year ago posted to a home EVSE that would adapt based on the incoming supply to the house, in order to accomodate your MIC.

BMW's new Wallbox Connect chargepoints do exactly that, they have a monitoring unit between your consumer unit and ESB meter and dynamically allocate the space left up to the MIC between all the chargepoints in the property.

Very very tasty: https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/wbdoc/wallbox-connect
Perfect solution rather than priority switches etc.

KCross · 07-09-2017 5:52pm

Dardania wrote: »

Very very tasty: https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/wbdoc/wallbox-connect
Perfect solution rather than priority switches etc.

As like most things BMW it also has a tasty price! I think its about 2-3 times the price of a Rolec!

Dardania · 07-09-2017 6:19pm

KCross wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Very very tasty: https://charging.bmwgroup.com/web/wbdoc/wallbox-connect
Perfect solution rather than priority switches etc.

As like most things BMW it also has a tasty price! I think its about 2-3 times the price of a Rolec!

I suspect they don't throw in a modbus capable power meter to the box either...but either way, good technical solution to an annoying problem. As someone else was posting earlier in this thread, I noticed ESB Network's charges that the call out fee to replace a popped ESBN fuse was fairly high - you don't want to pop that fuses too often.

07-09-2017 6:36pm

goz83 wrote: »

I'll take that junk off your hands if you do want rid. I won't even charge you

Seriously , you wouldn't want it !

goz83 · 07-09-2017 6:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously , you wouldn't want it !

I happen to have one and it sounds just grand. The other Leaf just has a hump where the bose system would be

07-09-2017 7:42pm

Lol then I'd rather the hump ! :-)

josip · 07-09-2017 9:19pm

goz83 wrote: »

I happen to have one and it sounds just grand. The other Leaf just has a hump where the bose system would be

So do you have 2 Leafs or 2 Leaves?

cros13 · 07-09-2017 9:20pm

Anyways.. back OT

Falcon L wrote: »

I wonder when they'll be available for test drives.

Official word from Nissan is that a small number of demo/showroom cars will arrive in late December with the first cars reaching new owners in February due to other markets getting priority over Ireland.

KCross · 07-09-2017 10:02pm

Any confirmation if 2018 Leaf is 40kWh total or usable?

DrPhilG · 07-09-2017 10:17pm

KCross wrote: »

Any confirmation if 2018 Leaf is 40kWh total or usable?

Most reports I've read say 40kwh usable but I haven't seen it anywhere official as yet.

cros13 · 07-09-2017 10:33pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncHybhwvxY4

KCross · 07-09-2017 11:06pm

DrPhilG wrote: »

KCross wrote: »

Any confirmation if 2018 Leaf is 40kWh total or usable?

Most reports I've read say 40kwh usable but I haven't seen it anywhere official as yet.

Yea, same here, hence looking for official confirmation.

If it's really 40kWh usable I would have expected Nissan to call it out as it's a major change in how they reported kWh in the past. They would surely clarify the change.

unkel · 07-09-2017 11:21pm

From the video it looks like ProPilot is exactly the same as on Ioniq. But the warning messages comes on a lot earlier (7s?) vs Ioniq (about 15s-20s). That's disappointing and to call it ProPilot is even more preposterous than the Tesla term Autopilot.

Gumbo · 08-09-2017 10:12am

Sat nav screen looks small in the new car. Could have bumped it up me thinks.

ELM327 · 08-09-2017 10:26am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Most reports I've read say 40kwh usable but I haven't seen it anywhere official as yet.

You'd think they would have emphasised that, as the 24kWh and 30kWh are both denominated as notional capacity and not usable capacity.

positron · 08-09-2017 4:26pm

A lot of first review videos on Youtube now, for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAysSoy8_Pc

cros13 · 09-09-2017 10:16am

So... Propilot got priced in the US as a $650 option. Selected by default on the SL (SVE equivalent).

US configurator is up:

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/configure/

as is the Irish site: https://www.nissan.ie/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf-2017.html

In other news... new app:
18tdieulhd-leafhelios009.jpg.ximg.l_6_h.smart.jpg

18tdieulhd-leafhelios009.jpg.ximg.l_6_h.smart.jpg

09-09-2017 11:19am

I'm happy you can finally set the temp for the climate control remotely.

Turn on the lights is also handy.

grogi · 09-09-2017 11:19am

cros13 wrote: »

So... Propilot got priced in the US as a $650 option. Selected by default on the SL (SVE equivalent).

US configurator is up:

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/configure/

as is the Irish site: https://www.nissan.ie/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf-2017.html

In other news... new app:

SL is more expensive than entry level Tesla...

ewj1978 · 09-09-2017 12:46pm

Never understand why they don't just come out with real world range. 378km pffft. ðŸ™„
240-280 depending on your driving style/weather etc.

kerten · 09-09-2017 1:55pm

ewj1978 wrote: »

Never understand why they don't just come out with real world range. 378km pffft. &#55357;&#56900;
240-280 depending on your driving style/weather etc.

I guess it is to lure clueless ICE owners looking for 300 miles range to showroom then tell them the real range verbally by explaining why it is enough.

2018 Leaf

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