2018 Leaf

macnab

ewj1978 wrote: »

Never understand why they don't just come out with real world range. 378km pffft. 🙄
240-280 depending on your driving style/weather etc.

I think Nissan have been conservative with their 150 mile range estimate.
Some of the test cycles should be scrapped ie NEDC and the Japanese 08 test are a joke.
The EPA test is the only test that comes close to real world range.

cros13

Ah now, without JC08 how would you know what the range would be with a 120km/h tailwind?

DrPhilG

ewj1978 wrote: »

Never understand why they don't just come out with real world range. 378km pffft. 🙄
240-280 depending on your driving style/weather etc.

I've been battling with Nissan Ireland on Facebook about that this last few days.

They are being deliberately misleading. When questioned on the 378km they just repeat it again. When I called them out for their BS they claimed that they have to state the NEDC range by law, even though Renault have been very open in stating the NEDC but also making it clear that the real life range would not match it.

cros13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQBupeHVJwA

40 mins to 80% ?

I kind of like the Blue.

So 80% of 38 Kwh usable capacity =30.4 Kwh. = 40 mins @ 65-70 Kw not bad but could / should be a lot better, should be able to handle at least 100 Kw.... up 15 Kw from the 30 Kwh Leaf in 2 years ? yeah stil;l way better than my 24 Kwh and to be honest I won;t be using the public network much with 250 odd kms range.

Work charging will meet 100% + of my commute. And I'm very interested in the prospect of having leaf to home , charge at work, use some to power the house and still have enough to get back up to work !

I need around 28 ish Kwh currently to complete my 142 Km commute driving pretty hard/fast 120-135 Kph. Should be less in a more efficient Leaf.

Soarer

Is it not 40kWh usable?

DrPhilG

Soarer wrote: »

Is it not 40kWh usable?

Most seem to think so but I can't see it confirmed anywhere.

Water John

Ah PhilG, why would you bother? We all know these, what in reality are, theorethical tests are nonsense.

We'll just have to wait for, independent driver experience.
Maybe, drivers in each country should select a few drives that give the variables that are likely to be experienced. These then can form an independent basis for rating each make and model.

grogi

DrPhilG wrote: »

Most seem to think so but I can't see it confirmed anywhere.

Who cares? It's mostly the range and time to charge, not battery capacity in kWh, that matter.

Soarer

Thinking out loud.

If the new Leaf's motor and battery are the same form factor as the old ones, and the new Leaf is coming in at the same price point as the current one, does it stand to reason that we'll be able to get the new 40kWh battery swapped into the current Leaf at the current price point of €5k?

grogi

Soarer wrote: »

Thinking out loud.

If the new Leaf's motor and battery are the same form factor as the old ones, and the new Leaf is coming in at the same price point as the current one, does it stand to reason that we'll be able to get the new 40kWh battery swapped into the current Leaf at the current price point of €5k?

Don't think so. The motor might be 'the same', but loads of tiny changes implemented. The battery controller is different, different charging connection etc... All is doable, but I don't think it would be PnP, like swaps within same generation.

2.0 tdi does not easily swap for 2.0 tdi either...

Water John

I think Nikki Gordon in the video indicated that she thought the motor looked smaller. I could be wrong and she could be wrong.

DrPhilG

Water John wrote: »

Ah PhilG, why would you bother? We all know these, what in reality are, theorethical tests are nonsense.

I know that and Nissan know that. So it annoys me that they're deliberately misleading the public.

DrPhilG

grogi wrote: »

Who cares? It's mostly the range and time to charge, not battery capacity in kWh, that matter.

I was just answering a question.

cros13

Water John wrote: »

I think Nikki Gordon in the video indicated that she thought the motor looked smaller. I could be wrong and she could be wrong.

*cough* dear nikki is confusing the motor with the cover on the charger in that case. The cover on the charger has been made smaller, flatter and black.

The motor is the same as the motor in the current leaf... just a minor revision being fed more power.

DrPhilG

Orebro wrote: »

Aren't mpg figures from ICE cars mostly fairy land figures too?

A bit but not as skewed as these range figures.

And I think range on an EV especially at this stage of development is a far higher concern than mpg in an ICE.

So many people claim that 200 miles is the tipping point for moving to EVs, and Nissan are proudly boasting that they have hit that mark.

n97 mini

Soarer wrote: »

Thinking out loud.

If the new Leaf's motor and battery are the same form factor as the old ones, and the new Leaf is coming in at the same price point as the current one, does it stand to reason that we'll be able to get the new 40kWh battery swapped into the current Leaf at the current price point of €5k?

Nissan already haven't offered the 30kw/h battery as an option for existing owners, so no reason to believe they'll offer the 40kw/h.

I'd say they're only keeping the same form factor for warranty replacements. i.e. when they run out of inventory of 24kw/h batteries they'll start fitting newer batteries to older cars. *But* they won't offer them for sale. More money in it for them to sell you a whole new car than a new battery.

On the flip side, Renault do the opposite, for now anyway. It will be interesting to see which approach proves a better move, the Nissan "screw you" approach or the Renault "here, have a bigger battery" approach.

k123456

cros13 wrote: »

So... Propilot got priced in the US as a $650 option. Selected by default on the SL (SVE equivalent).

US configurator is up:

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/configure/

as is the Irish site: https://www.nissan.ie/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf-2017.html

In other news... new app:

I wonder Will the new app work with existing Leafs 2011 to 2017, current app is v slow

One thing I noticed from the new app is that it doesn't appear that you can set a charging timer as is the case now , only "start charging" option ?

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

North of £3k in some parts. Which is probably equivalent to at least €5k these days, at least!



For me it would not be idle most of the time.
I charge a lot at home (4k EV km per month on average), and when we move to a dual EV home it will be closer to 5k km.

My house (and any house I am aware of with standard connection) (see previous post) cannot charge 2 ev at 6.6kW.

The solution is a dual capable load sensing evse. The cars can't do this as the evse specification is one way evse advertises to car.

The other issue is that certain cars don't like the advertised current changing as they only sample it at the charge start time.

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

A bit but not as skewed as these range figures.

And I think range on an EV especially at this stage of development is a far higher concern than mpg in an ICE.

So many people claim that 200 miles is the tipping point for moving to EVs, and Nissan are proudly boasting that they have hit that mark.

They are, aren't they. Under what conditions I wonder would they do 250km? I want to be able to take a four hour journey without stops, without driving like a Grandper, with the radio and maybe heat on. Is this what they will now do?

I wager their 250kms is at 80kph, in silence, with the wind at your back, no passengers and at 76 degrees

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

They are, aren't they. Under what conditions I wonder would they do 250km? I want to be able to take a four hour journey without stops, without driving like a Grandper, with the radio and maybe heat on. Is this what they will now do?

I wager their 250kms is at 80kph, in silence, with the wind at your back, no passengers and at 76 degrees

The battery would be well cooked then! :eek::P

I don't think the new leaf would be able to do 250km from a 40kWh pack unless you flintstoned the last 50.

It's NEDC rated at 378 km so surely should be able to do close to 250 km in real life. Pretty much like the current 30 kWh car's 250 km NEDC vs. 180 km real life. Real life in Leaf is btw. "up to" 110 km/h.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

at 76 degrees

Jesus... that's 5 degrees hotter than I sous-vide a well done steak at.

ELM327 wrote: »

The battery would be well cooked then! :eek::P

I don't think the new leaf would be able to do 250km from a 40kWh pack unless you flintstoned the last 50.

The usable proportion of the pack increased more than that would suggest + aerodynamics are slightly better (but somewhat offset by increased frontal area). I'd see 240-250 as reasonable.

Heck... my dad will definitely get 250, this was his 30kWh when I jumped in it last week (after he took it to Dublin on the motorway the day before):

macnab

The range obviously depends on useable battery and driving style. I average 15.2kw per 100km in my 30kw Leaf which gives me 184km for 28kw useable battery. So I am expecting at least 263km from 40kw useable battery. Given that the new leaf will have better aerodynamics and better efficiency due to the one pedal driving I am expecting to see 300km on warm dry days.

grogi

macnab wrote: »

The range obviously depends on useable battery and driving style. I average 15.2kw per 100km in my 30kw Leaf which gives me 184km for 28kw useable battery. So I am expecting at least 263km from 40kw useable battery. Given that the new leaf will have better aerodynamics and better efficiency due to the one pedal driving I am expecting to see 300km on warm dry days.

Introduction of one pedal driving, without any other improvements, would marginally REDUCE efficiency.

One pedal driving won't help to improve efficiency.

Aerodynamics and drive train efficiency will matter far more.

Soarer

Just checked there, and since I got the car in April, I've averaged around 12kW per 100km.

So basic maths tells me that I should be able to eek 200kms out of the current 30kWh, and well over 300kms in the new Leaf.

Nice.

12 Kwh/100 Km in a leaf ? that's some boring driving lol.

12 Kwh/100 Kms would give you 333 Kms with 40 Kwh usable.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

One pedal driving won't help to improve efficiency.

You'd be very surprised how much it can improve efficiency in city stop & go traffic.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

You'd be very surprised how much it can improve efficiency in city stop & go traffic.

Absolutely nothing.

cros13

grogi wrote: »

Absolutely nothing.

I'm speaking from experience here. The i3 tracks trip regen in the driving stats. Even with ~40% efficiency regen can have a massive a effect.
In a day of driving across Dublin I've sometimes recovered up to 4kWh.
More than enough to have a very noticeable effect on range.

There is a big difference between the weak regen of the Leaf and the one pedal driving on the i3 and it allows recuperation of energy in many many more situations.

unkel

grogi wrote:

Absolutely nothing.

You're presuming that the brake pedal uses regen braking only instead of friction braking. This is not always true and varies quite a bit between EVs

DrPhilG

I haven't a clue what Kwh per 100km I get. My car is in miles and I great 3.4 miles per Kwh. And that's after I calmed down the acceleration a bit. I don't think I'll bother anymore though. When I was launching it everywhere I was getting 3.3

The only way the new leaf regen will be more efficient is if it supports more than 30 Kw regen, where in the current model more braking power requires some use of the friction brakes.

However, most of the time even 30 kw is sufficient so it's nothing to do with the one pedal function.

Soarer

Deleted User wrote: »

12 Kwh/100 Km in a leaf ? that's some boring driving lol.

Shur what rush am I in? :cool:

grogi

unkel wrote: »

You're presuming that the brake pedal uses regen braking only instead of friction braking. This is not always true and varies quite a bit between EVs

Yes, I am. It is an utter stupidity and complete waste of sparse resource to do it otherwise. Anyone who implemented it differently should be fired. In the era when each EV is compared by one universal metric - range - limiting it that way is completely unacceptable.

As long as the regen can meet the requirements for slowing the car down (typically limited by how fast the battery can charge; @Mad_Lad mentioned 30 kW in Leaf, I've seen 60 kW in a Tesla [and that depends on the temperature of the battery too]), it will be used. Friction are engaged only when that is not enough or at very low speeds, when regen is not precise enough but also virtually no energy left to recapture. That also allows to clean the brake disks and pads from any rust and residues on regular basis, without any noticeable energy loses.

In an i3 a slightly different strategy might get engaged in 'Sport' mode (or whatever it would be called), to give more traditional 'sports-car' feel. But in that case the efficiency is really a third or forth after-though.

Soarer

Soarer wrote: »

Shur what rush am I in? :cool:

Obviously none !

BoatMad

12kwh per 100km in a leaf, wow, it must never get above 40 km !

after 73,000km I'm at 14.3

ELM327

I reset my trip computer there at the start of the week (normally I just reset trip A but this time I reset the whole trip) and I'm at 22kWh/100km.
Lead foot + motorway driving + work charging really helps drive that up.

I was at approx 14-15 when I didnt have work charging and had to do 115-120km round trip in one go.

My average for 2016 was 18.5 if I remember correctly and that's driving very hard on the motorway, most of my driving is on the motorway 120-135 Kph clock speed. But obviously this includes non motorway driving.

n97 mini

DrPhilG wrote: »

I haven't a clue what Kwh per 100km I get. My car is in miles and I great 3.4 miles per Kwh. And that's after I calmed down the acceleration a bit. I don't think I'll bother anymore though. When I was launching it everywhere I was getting 3.3

3.4 miles is 5.74km.

5.74 into 100 = 17.42 kw/h per 100km

peposhi

Am I correct t say that if your average consumption is 17.5kwh/100km you are not going to get more than 230km with a 40kwh Leaf ??

ELM327

peposhi wrote: »

Am I correct t say that if your average consumption is 17.5kwh/100km you are not going to get more than 230km with a 40kwh Leaf ??

Yes.
But that depends on your consumption in leaf2

KCross

peposhi wrote: »

Am I correct t say that if your average consumption is 17.5kwh/100km you are not going to get more than 230km with a 40kwh Leaf ??

I wouldn't think thats correct.

Presumably if you put Leaf I and Leaf II side by side and drive the same way, Leaf II will use less energy as it will be more efficient (aerodynamics, motors, gearing etc).

The other thing is we don't know yet if Leaf II is 40kWh usable or total and no one has driven it so we don't know the efficiency figures.

oppenheimer1

cros13 wrote: »

• LG Chem are the only source for the batteries.
• Hyundai placed their order with LG Chem two years ago and even without being on sale in all the target markets, and after closing some markets to new orders, Ioniq EV orders so far in 2017 have exceeded the total year estimates by more than 2.5X
• With orders on the books from 28 carmakers LG Chem has no spare production capacity, they are increasing the size of the Cheongju plant by 50% and Hyundai group has bought most of the new production but the new lines are a year or so away from operation.
• LG Group has been reluctant to give LG Chem capital or allow it to borrow for expansion without firm orders from customers for the new production. The majority of the customer base has been, frankly, under the delusion that if they need to ramp production they can buy batteries on the open market... and reluctant to sign on the dotted line when financial guarantees were required.
• Hyundai Group's Enercell division only has battery manufacturing experience of small scale lead acid and NiMH, has no tooling or production facility suitable for lithium ion production and would need to negotiate licensing of LG Chem's chemistries and production methods
• No batteries = no Ioniqs

The only point on that list we can be certain of is the last one. The other points are commercially sensitive and unless you are on the board of directors of LG or Hyundai you cannot make reliable pronouncements on supply or financing of these companies.

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The only point on that list we can be certain of is the last one. The other points are commercially sensitive and unless you are on the board of directors of LG or Hyundai you cannot make reliable pronouncements on supply or financing of these companies.

You obviously don't know the contacts that cros has.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

You obviously don't know the contacts that cros has.

I don't. But I do know that boards.ie is not the place for releasing commercially sensitive information.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't. But I do know that boards.ie is not the place for releasing commercially sensitive information.

If @cros13 knows, it has been already released.