2018 Leaf

cros13

oppenheimer1 wrote:

The only point on that list we can be certain of is the last one. The other points are commercially sensitive and unless you are on the board of directors of LG or Hyundai you cannot make reliable pronouncements on supply or financing of these companies.

The industry I work in has some crossover, LG Chem and other firms involved are suppliers I'd deal with on a fairly frequent basis. I also talk to people working for the carmakers on the technical side of the house.

oppenheimer1 wrote:

I don't. But I do know that boards.ie is not the place for releasing commercially sensitive information.

I don't post anything on boards that I'm under NDA about. Most of what I post is generally supported by public info like industry press, press releases, patent filings or public financial documents.
Although I have had one rap on the knuckles from a carmaker for posting something on here that wasn't supposed to be public quite yet.
And sometimes I'll make an educated guess.

oppenheimer1

cros13 wrote: »

The industry I work in has some crossover, LG Chem and other firms involved are suppliers I'd deal with on a fairly frequent basis. I also talk to people working for the carmakers on the technical side of the house.



I don't post anything on boards that I'm under NDA about. Most of what I post is generally supported by public info like industry press, press releases, patent filings or public financial documents.
Although I have had one rap on the knuckles from a carmaker for posting something on here that wasn't supposed to be public quite yet.
And sometimes I'll make an educated guess.

The size of the order book, and the reluctance of the LG parent to give the subsidiary capital or take out loans are also highly unlikely to appear in public documents. This is internal LG company gossip at best.

If I made an unsubstantiated claim like that, the first post after would be "source".

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The size of the order book, and the reluctance of the LG parent to give the subsidiary capital or take out loans are also highly unlikely to appear in public documents. This is internal LG company gossip at best.

If I made an unsubstantiated claim like that, the first post after would be "source".

Again, this is another thread that you're only causing argument in.

Maybe if you've an issue with "fake news", you could take it up with cros13 privately? Or start your own thread on the matter?

Either way, it's got nothing to do with the 2018 Leaf.

oppenheimer1

Soarer wrote: »

Again, this is another thread that you're only causing argument in.

Maybe if you've an issue with "fake news", you could take it up with cros13 privately? Or start your own thread on the matter?

Either way, it's got nothing to do with the 2018 Leaf.

It has got everything to do with the leaf, if you refer to my original point: which was the leaf 2 was underwhelming when you compare it to the Ioniq. Cros then went off and made large unsubstantiated claims that Hyundai would not be able to expand Ioniq production for various reasons. eg LG parent not allowed LG Chem to borrow for expansion or give it extra capital..
My point was that Hyundai are in the business of selling product and i have no doubt they are working on ways to expand production. And they will surely have worked it out by the time ioniq 2 is released.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And they will surely have worked it out by the time ioniq 2 is released.

Which is around 6 years from now.

oppenheimer1

grogi wrote: »

Which is around 6 years from now.

I'd expect a refresh late '18 early '19 tbh

Soarer

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

i have no doubt they are working on ways to expand production. And they will surely have worked it out by the time ioniq 2 is released.

Unsubstantiated claims.

Very easy to play your game.

grogi

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'd expect a refresh late '18 early '19 tbh

Did you know that boards.ie is not the place for releasing commercially sensitive information?!

oppenheimer1

grogi wrote: »

Did you know that boards.ie is not the place for releasing commercially sensitive information?!

I'm clearly speculating. I'm not presenting unsubstantiated claims as fact.

Soarer wrote: »

Unsubstantiated claims.

Very easy to play your game.

I've yet to come across a company that is attempting to build market share in an emerging market that has artificially restricted sales volume and has made it a success.

The whole point of the leaf and Ioniq was to get first mover advantage

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'd expect a refresh late '18 early '19 tbh

yes I think , by Leaf - Eplus ( i.e. 60 kwh ) Ioniq will have to up its game , but the LG supply issue isnt going to be solved anytime soon

who_ru

Interesting chat on the new Leaf...it's an American perspective but a lot of it is relevant if you're thinking of buying the new Leaf.

https://youtu.be/iThwEfIBwIE

unkel

Wait, the new Leaf still is only 3kW standard charging? :eek:

The V2G capability is new to me. What hardware is needed in your house for this?

That's in Japan I believe, rumour to be 7 odd Kw in U.S / E.U.

who_ru

unkel wrote: »

Wait, the new Leaf still is only 3kW standard charging? :eek:

The V2G capability is new to me. What hardware is needed in your house for this?

Having watched that video I'm beginning to think it might be a better bet to wait for the upgraded Ioniq.

I didn't watch the video , I'll get a test drive and judge for myself , I don't need anyone else to make my mind up.

unkel

who_ru wrote: »

Having watched that video I'm beginning to think it might be a better bet to wait for the upgraded Ioniq.

Why? What in the video put you off? Personally I find the V2G a very interesting feature

Bigus

Here's an interesting take on the "updated leaf"

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/16/nissan-trick-sleeve-new-leaf/

"Nissan’s trick up its sleeve can be explained like this:

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

I think it is undisputed that the best EV for the city is the BMW i3 and the best long-journey EV is the Tesla Model S, yet they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price, the Zoe is Europe’s top selling electric car.

And between the i3 and Model S extremes, and with the ability to go in and out of the city for the occasional long trip, we have several players — Hyundai Ioniq, VW e-Golf, Chevrolet Bolt … and the 2018 Nissan LEAF. These models are all basically going for the same customers. But…
After the first LEAF sales peak (first 4 to 6 months of 2018), Nissan will start to play its cards. Because the new car is based on an old platform, Nissan will have plenty of space to make discounts, undercutting the competition even further, maybe going into the mid-$20,000 arena. And this could last until…

Late 2018, when the new long-range version shows up (can LG Chem, the new supplier, cram 60 kWh into the old platform?). That can add the “wow” factor that the 40 kWh version misses, as the larger battery will allow Bolt/Tesla range levels (225–245 miles EPA). Additionally, the TMS that comes with LG technology will not only increase consumer confidence, but finally open the door to those much anticipated 150 kW fast chargers.

Now, imagine in December 2018 a 60 kWh LEAF with 230 miles of range and 150 kW-rated charging capability for … (drums rolling) … $36,000!

Tasty, isn’t it?

unkel

Bigus wrote: »

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

Almost true. The best selling car is not necessarily the best value for money.

Bigus wrote: »

they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price,

I really like the Zoe, but over here it's poor value for money at a ridiculous €28k or so for a very basic supermini. The Leaf and the Ioniq are the only EVs that are good value for money imho.

grogi

Bigus wrote: »

Here's an interesting take on the "updated leaf"

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/09/16/nissan-trick-sleeve-new-leaf/

"Nissan’s trick up its sleeve can be explained like this:

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

I think it is undisputed that the best EV for the city is the BMW i3 and the best long-journey EV is the Tesla Model S, yet they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price, the Zoe is Europe’s top selling electric car.

And between the i3 and Model S extremes, and with the ability to go in and out of the city for the occasional long trip, we have several players — Hyundai Ioniq, VW e-Golf, Chevrolet Bolt … and the 2018 Nissan LEAF. These models are all basically going for the same customers. But…
After the first LEAF sales peak (first 4 to 6 months of 2018), Nissan will start to play its cards. Because the new car is based on an old platform, Nissan will have plenty of space to make discounts, undercutting the competition even further, maybe going into the mid-$20,000 arena. And this could last until…

Late 2018, when the new long-range version shows up (can LG Chem, the new supplier, cram 60 kWh into the old platform?). That can add the “wow” factor that the 40 kWh version misses, as the larger battery will allow Bolt/Tesla range levels (225–245 miles EPA). Additionally, the TMS that comes with LG technology will not only increase consumer confidence, but finally open the door to those much anticipated 150 kW fast chargers.

That all makes sense

Now, imagine in December 2018 a 60 kWh LEAF with 230 miles of range and 150 kW-rated charging capability for … (drums rolling) … $36,000!

Tasty, isn’t it?

Not at all.

In December 2018, a 60 kWh Leaf (around 400 km of EPA range) needs to cost €29 990 to be really competitive.

15 months from now Model3 will be delivered at regular basis... It offers far better performance, RWD for enhanced driving dynamics and much more cool aura around... All that with 350 km of range for $35000. Despite slightly bigger range Leaf will need to undercut its price.

Leaf advantages are availability and slightly lower price. When availability stops being an advantage, it will need to be even more cheaper.

Don't be expecting a 60 Kwh Leaf in December 2018.

I was contemplating waiting but I'm not going to, I'll get the updated Leaf when it's available and might trade again whenever the 60 Kwh comes out with more power.

Soarer

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't be expecting a 60 Kwh Leaf in December 2018.

I was contemplating waiting but I'm not going to, I'll get the updated Leaf when it's available and might trade again whenever the 60 Kwh comes out with more power.

Thinking something similar myself.

Maybe get into the new one for a cheap as possible, and then go balls out on the 60kWh/Nismo version.

Sounds like a plan ! :-)

who_ru

A lot of this discussion seems to suggest buying a 40kwh 2018 Leaf early next year might not be the best move financially. 'If it suits your needs etc yeah fine' but if there is a likelihood of intensifying competition in the ev market then that could benefit consumers.

The grants available for buying an EV may not last forever but we'll see.

"Don't buy this one as in 12 months time there will be a better car in market."

220 Kms driving hard on the motorway ( estimated 130 Kph) - 280 kms estimated driving 80-100 Kph. not bad really. The EPA test should tell more but you'll be able to do better than that and of course worse but it should give an indication compared to the current leaf as to how much more efficient it is.

80% charge in 40 mins is a lot better than I get in the 24 Kwh Leaf, a lot considering it has twice the battery capacity.

Sure I would like to have more range when I need it but it's a lot better than what I have right now which is a pain if I need to do a longer trip, having over twice the range is a big deal for me.

Think of it like this, when I'd have 50% charge left that would be 0 in the 24 Kwh Leaf. Or when I got 100% charge would be 50% in the 24 Kwh Leaf.

The 40 kWh (usable?) range will feel like a huge bump compared to 21 kWh usable our current LEAF has. We holidayed in Connemara last weekend and over there a range of up to 250 km would have been really welcome. Luckily for us the only working public charging point in the area decided to work on the second attempt but we would have been relegated to the kindness of strangers if that had not been the case.

Unless the cost of change is prohibitive we will definitely upgrade to this or maybe an IONIQ next year. It looks like the latter will still have an upper hand in efficiency and charging speeds. Also CCS charging might turn out to be more future proof going forward. But as the eCars network stands today a ChaDeMo looks like a safer bet in the near term. Let's hope ~7 kW AC will be a standard equipment with LEAF going forward.

Rumoured to 40 Kwh to be usable, unconfirmed. Even 38 Kwh is going to make a lot of difference to a 24 Kwh Leaf owner with 21 Kwh usable and especially for 2011-13 owners which will have suffered some capacity loss.

Even if the Ioniq had 30 Kms more range next year I'd still get the Leaf for the 150 HP , it will make a nice difference.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

220 Kms driving hard on the motorway ( estimated 130 Kph) - 280 kms estimated driving 80-100 Kph. not bad really. The EPA test should tell more but you'll be able to do better than that and of course worse but it should give an indication compared to the current leaf as to how much more efficient it is.

80% charge in 40 mins is a lot better than I get in the 24 Kwh Leaf, a lot considering it has twice the battery capacity.

Sure I would like to have more range when I need it but it's a lot better than what I have right now which is a pain if I need to do a longer trip, having over twice the range is a big deal for me.

Think of it like this, when I'd have 50% charge left that would be 0 in the 24 Kwh Leaf. Or when I got 100% charge would be 50% in the 24 Kwh Leaf.

220km @ 130kph

Not a chance madlad

Even the Model 3 and Ioniq will be using close to 20Kwh/100km at that speed

Leaf 2 probably over 20Kwh

I'd say 190km max at that speed, its not a motorway car with the drag it has.

Well Motorway is 99% of my driving at 130 Kph for about 120 of my 140 Km commute. The rest 110-120 either way a big improvement.

waraf

Has anyone any idea of how much the new leaf will cost in Ireland? (sorry if this was asked already, it's a very long thread and I haven't read it all)

Soarer

waraf wrote: »

Has anyone any idea of how much the new leaf will cost in Ireland? (sorry if this was asked already, it's a very long thread and I haven't read it all)

Roughly the same price as the current Leaf.

Soarer

samih wrote: »

The 40 kWh (usable?) range will feel like a huge bump compared to 21 kWh usable our current LEAF has. We holidayed in Connemara last weekend and over there a range of up to 250 km would have been really welcome. Luckily for us the only working public charging point in the area decided to work on the second attempt but we would have been relegated to the kindness of strangers if that had not been the case.

Unless the cost of change is prohibitive we will definitely upgrade to this or maybe an IONIQ next year. It looks like the latter will still have an upper hand in efficiency and charging speeds. Also CCS charging might turn out to be more future proof going forward. But as the eCars network stands today a ChaDeMo looks like a safer bet in the near term. Let's hope ~7 kW AC will be a standard equipment with LEAF going forward.

I've a 24kWh Leaf with only 85% capacity, so imagine what the new 40kWh Leaf will do for me!

I hope they have Leafs available for test at dealers soon. Probably November I'd say.

huggs2

I was at the ploughing championships yesterday and the new leaf was not on the Nissan stand.I thought they might have brought a leaf 2 from Japan to show off.
I am sick of waiting though and i am seriously thinking of getting a leaf when they arrive her in feb. Disappointed the new leaf will not do more that 200 miles.I did sit down and think of all the places i might want to go to and i can reach them all and return home without any charging involved on the 150 mile range of the leaf 2.Its 6 months away before i can buy one though and the way the EV landscape is changing so fast it might be a different scene then.Tesla were showing off their model x. The guy there said the model 3 would be available in Ireland in 2 years time.

ELM327

huggs2 wrote: »

I was at the ploughing championships yesterday and the new leaf was not on the Nissan stand.I thought they might have brought a leaf 2 from Japan to show off.
I am sick of waiting though and i am seriously thinking of getting a leaf when they arrive her in feb. Disappointed the new leaf will not do more that 200 miles.I did sit down and think of all the places i might want to go to and i can reach them all and return home without any charging involved on the 150 mile range of the leaf 2.Its 6 months away before i can buy one though and the way the EV landscape is changing so fast it might be a different scene then.Tesla were showing off their model x. The guy there said the model 3 would be available in Ireland in 2 years time.

The model x is the ideal car for a farmer currently driving a discovery. IMO.
Probably got some great sales (or at least planted the idea) for the model X at that show.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

The model x is the ideal car for a farmer currently driving a discovery. IMO.
Probably got some great sales (or at least planted the idea) for the model X at that show.

Except the Model X is about 2-3 times the price!

Not too many farmers driving €100k+ cars so I'd guess they got zero sales but loads of tyre kickers!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Not too many farmers driving €100k+ cars so I'd guess they got zero sales but loads of tyre kickers!

Take away their dodgy diesel supply and see how fast they will switch :pac:

Not too long ago I remember a farmers protest in the Phoenix Park and the most common car there was a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon, costing the guts of €100k (incl VAT)

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Take away their dodgy diesel supply and see how fast they will switch :pac:

Not too long ago I remember a farmers protest in the Phoenix Park and the most common car there was a Toyota Landcruiser Amazon, costing the guts of €100k (incl VAT)

Really?

I sense an anti farmer bias there @unkel!

Anyway, 2018 Leaf eh!

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope they have Leafs available for test at dealers soon. Probably November I'd say.

I was told December arrival for the showroom units by Nissan.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Except the Model X is about 2-3 times the price!

Not too many farmers driving €100k+ cars so I'd guess they got zero sales but loads of tyre kickers!

Yes but if you include 3-5 years of white diesel costs it's cheaper.
My family are farmers in Roscommon and they have a landcruiser (and some PCP skodas), if you are willing to pay 80k for a landcruiser a model x will work out much cheaper than that.

huggs2

cros13 wrote: »

I was told December arrival for the showroom units by Nissan.

Sales at Nissan Ireland told me they don't expect the Leaf 2 to arrive in this country until Feb. 2018.

KCross

huggs2 wrote: »

Sales at Nissan Ireland told me they don't expect the Leaf 2 to arrive in this country until Feb. 2018.

I guess demo models in the showroom for December and available to you in Feb 2018.

Soarer

cros13 wrote: »

I was told December arrival for the showroom units by Nissan.

huggs2 wrote: »

Sales at Nissan Ireland told me they don't expect the Leaf 2 to arrive in this country until Feb. 2018.

Ye're probably both right.

Demo models in November. Customer cars February.

cros13

12 days ago:

cros13 wrote: »

Anyways.. back OT



Official word from Nissan is that a small number of demo/showroom cars will arrive in late December with the first cars reaching new owners in February due to other markets getting priority over Ireland.

*cough*

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Really?

I sense an anti farmer bias there @unkel!

Nah, I remember the pictures, I think they even made it to the RTE news. Farmers giving out about something or other that they were very poor. And then loads of new and nearly new expensive 4WD trucks. Was a while ago though, probably around the height of the celtic tiger.

Falcon L

cros13 wrote: »

12 days ago:



*cough*

And I can confirm that is exactly what I was told by a couple of dealers.

Well it is nearly October after all so I don't expect deliveries either until February , that's all going smoothly.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Nah, I remember the pictures, I think they even made it to the RTE news. Farmers giving out about something or other that they were very poor. And then loads of new and nearly new expensive 4WD trucks. Was a while ago though, probably around the height of the celtic tiger.

Farmers dont drive trucks....only tractors

In reference to your main point, you will find farmers do drive Toyota Landcruiser but the commercial version. The commercial is 33k plus 7k VAT and some of them will be able to claim the VAT back. So it costs 33k. So not too far off the cost of a Leaf....I know which one I would pick

Just wanted to clear that up

unkel

Commercial Landcruiser Amazon costs €100k incl VAT

Linky

About the same price as the Model X

Obviously not saying every farmer has a 4WD €100k vehicle, but back then the number of these parked in the Phoenix Park during the protest was striking. Is all I'm saying.

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Commercial Landcruiser Amazon costs €100k incl VAT

Linky

About the same price as the Model X

Obviously not saying every farmer has a 4WD €100k vehicle, but back then the number of these parked in the Phoenix Park during the protest was striking. Is all I'm saying.

The only 100k model I see if the 7 seater version which from the majority of farmers I know they would not drive....they buy land cruiser for pulling power and space in back....not to seat the kids etc......cattle feed and tools are priority.....

The LWB standard spec would be the work horse and favorite..


We are a mile off topic now