Garda Commissioner Refuses to Go.

RustyNut

nice_guy80 wrote: »

If she goes will she bring the husband with her as well?

Jobs for the boys, and girls

That's about what you'd expect for a corrupt public official in this country. Go with a big pension make sure that your nepotism pays off as well.

.........

Noreen O'Sullivan - When she goes, who exactly are they going to get to replace her ? More of the exact same. The vey sad fact is our national Police force cannot be trusted at all, and the higher you go, the more rotten it gets. I hope I never have to ring the Guards for anything someday, I dread the day I have to deal with them. I feel very sorry for the ordinary decent Guards out there ( there are a few) who try their best every day regardless of the awful organisation they work for.

steddyeddy

A lot of gaurds, if not most do great work. As an organisation the gaurds shelter the very worst among them. They resist every change and as a result the old gaurd should should be removed. The commisioner, like a lot of senior gaurds have no connection to ordinary people.

I live in England and the police here are a lot better. I regularly go drinking with a few of them and one huge difference strikes me. Once gaurds enter Templemore they stick to themselves, drink with themselves and distance themselves from the general public. If you run a public service like a club it fosters mistrust on both sides. The UK police do a much better job of integrating.

steddyeddy

snowflaker wrote: »

We need an external Commissioner from outside Ireland to come in and clean up the boys in blue

Exactly this. I think the ombudsman was from the UK?

.........

snowflaker wrote: »

We need an external Commissioner from outside Ireland to come in and clean up the boys in blue

They will get nowhere.

.........

......... wrote: »

I hope I never have to ring the Guards for anything someday, I dread the day I have to deal with them. I feel very sorry for the ordinary decent Guards out there ( there are a few) who try their best every day regardless of the awful organisation they work for.

Well the ones that will be responding to your call are ordinary decent guards so don't know why you dread it.

.........

bubblypop wrote: »

Well the ones that will be responding to your call are ordinary decent guards so don't know why you dread it.

Because the ordinary decent guard is far outnumbered and has to keep his head down and his mouth very shut.

please helpThank YOU

steddyeddy wrote: »

A lot of gaurds, if not most do great work. As an organisation the gaurds shelter the very worst among them. They resist every change and as a result the old gaurd should should be removed. The commisioner, like a lot of senior gaurds have no connection to ordinary people.

I live in England and the police here are a lot better. I regularly go drinking with a few of them and one huge difference strikes me. Once gaurds enter Templemore they stick to themselves, drink with themselves and distance themselves from the general public. If you run a public service like a club it fosters mistrust on both sides. The UK police do a much better job of integrating.

My two First Cousins are Gaurds and 100 per cent have distance themselves for the public. One off them was mad into Soccer and never had any other interest in other sports now he loves the GAA sports ? I said this the him and he went red in the face .

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

A lot of gaurds, if not most do great work. As an organisation the gaurds shelter the very worst among them. They resist every change and as a result the old gaurd should should be removed. The commisioner, like a lot of senior gaurds have no connection to ordinary people.

I live in England and the police here are a lot better. I regularly go drinking with a few of them and one huge difference strikes me. Once gaurds enter Templemore they stick to themselves, drink with themselves and distance themselves from the general public. If you run a public service like a club it fosters mistrust on both sides. The UK police do a much better job of integrating.

I lived in England in my childhood and regularly visit, I have a lot of family there. I also had, now retired, family in a police force over there.
To an extent, you are right. The police in England treat it as a job. Very few join and work for 30 yrs then retire. It is more of a 'vocation' if you like in Ireland. That's a historical thing.
I think there is a big cultural difference in policing in England and Ireland. For a start, there are many different police forces, we have one organisation, Tbh we don't need different forces like they do in England.
It's does lead to a parochial type of policing here.
Guards want to go closer to their 'homeplace' being closer to home means you know more people, which in turn may lead to more lax policing, not through badness, just because it's more of a wink & a nod attitude here.
The majority of people in Ireland don't actually want professional police force like England, they say they do, but then when they themselves are involved in something, be it as suspects or victims, they expect special treatment. Maybe they know the guard, or the local superindent, whatever.
Everyone wants everything above board and totally transparent, until they are stopped with no tax, or drink driving etc.. Then it's all ' but you know me guard, I'm a decent hard working local, go arrest real criminals' etc etc
I agree there is a big difference in English & Irish policing, I'm not sure if people really know which they actually want.

melloa

gardz don't lie

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

Well the ones that will be responding to your call are ordinary decent guards so don't know why you dread it.

Was it not ordinary "decent" guards that done the million breath tests that never happened, was it not ordinary "decent" guards, including some that post on here, that blaugarded Maurice McCabe, was it not ordinary "decent" guards that stitched up Dean Lyons for a murder he couldn't have committed etc, etc, etc.......

.........

......... wrote: »

Because the ordinary decent guard is far outnumbered

By whom?

BoatMad

......... wrote: »

Noreen O'Sullivan - When she goes, who exactly are they going to get to replace her ? More of the exact same. The vey sad fact is our national Police force cannot be trusted at all, and the higher you go, the more rotten it gets. I hope I never have to ring the Guards for anything someday, I dread the day I have to deal with them. I feel very sorry for the ordinary decent Guards out there ( there are a few) who try their best every day regardless of the awful organisation they work for.

it would seem Nuala O'Loan was entirely prescient in turning down the role

BoatMad

bubblypop wrote: »

By whom?

by those who integrity has been corrupted by the system they are in.

.........

Did the rest of you notice the smug grin Noreen was struggling to contain at the press conference today ?

She knows she's not going anywhere . . . I bet she has a nice little insurance dossier on her fellow co-conspirators . . . I mean senior colleagues and politicians.

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

Was it not ordinary "decent" guards that done the million breath tests that never happened, was it not ordinary "decent" guards, including some that post on here, that blaugarded Maurice McCabe, was it not ordinary "decent" guards that stitched up Dean Lyons for a murder he couldn't have committed etc, etc, etc.......

I don't honestly know anything about breath testing, having never been involved in it, but yea it looks like it was ordinary Gardai that claimed more tests were done.
I don't think any Gardai blackgarded mccabe, maybe you could point out exactly what they did?.......
And I suggest you research and read up on the Dean Lyons case, nobody.stitched him up, as you suggest. It was a serious miscarriage of justice, but most certainly not a stitch up.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

by those who integrity has been corrupted by the system they are in.

Nope. Gonna have to do better then that.
Some examples or else you're just jumping on a garda bashing bandwagon

melloa

bubblypop wrote: »

Nope. Gonna have to do better then that.
Some examples or else you're just jumping on a garda bashing bandwagon

i believe you

I'm going to back out of this thread now, in case anyone assumes I'm somehow backing the Garda commissioner!
I'm not, couldn't care less & can't believe she didn't retire months ago.

CoolHandBandit

Nobody does brass neck like the Irish.

Donal55

mattser wrote: »

Yes indeed, AGS has it's wrong ones, but the vast majority go out to do a days work as best they can, mostly in the face of adversity. People are entitled to have a go when things are wrong.

What really makes me sick is politicians calling for the commissioner to stand aside. No other democracy would stand by some of our elected, who laughed in the face of those who asked them to stand aside, for the truck loads of fcuk-ups they visited on their people.

Hypocrisy at it's most nauseating.

Systemic, was the word used by the cop in charge of the Traffic Corp last Friday evening. Not one or two operatives operating a rural checkpoint, or ten of them operating a super checkpoint. Not confined or localised to individual districts. Nation wide and systemic. They were his words.

For a million false tests to be garnered i'd hazard a guess and say the vast majority of AGS were complicit.

BoatMad

bubblypop wrote: »

Nope. Gonna have to do better then that.
Some examples or else you're just jumping on a garda bashing bandwagon

Im not, and Im not going to examples because the ones I know of would incriminate ordinary Gardai.

The culture in the Guards is very toxic to integrity ,once that " integrity " does not coincide with the views of management at all levels from sergeant up.

Mrsmum

The thing is if the Gardai see no harm in making these false breadth tests, is it not likely they have a casual association with the truth in other areas as well or at least leave themselves open to that charge so you have the people having no faith in the guards which is really a dreadful state of affairs.

Donal55

Mrsmum wrote: »

The thing is if the Gardai see no harm in making these false breadth tests, is it not likely they have a casual association with the truth in other areas as well or at least leave themselves open to that charge so you have the people having no faith in the guards which is really a dreadful state of affairs.

Thats it in a nutshell. Spot on.

Flippyfloppy

The day that she gets made scapegoat is the day this all gets brushed under the carpet!!

Donal55

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

The day that she gets made scapegoat is the day this all gets brushed under the carpet!!

Okay Mr. O'Sullivan.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't think any Gardai blackgarded mccabe, maybe you could point out exactly what they did?

Read this thread from post 135 on. Your colleague, Potential-Monke says that a report showed Sergeant McCabe as someone who was not capable of making correct decisions, someone with poor interpersonal skills and someone who was not a very good Sergeant.

When asked to link to the report your other colleague garda cullen states that it is the Guerin Report.

The report actually says

20.5 It should be recorded here that the Byrne-McGinn report found that:
"No malice on the part of Sergeant McCabe is established in the
making of his various complaints."
20.6 The time I have spent with Sergeant McCabe in the course of extensive
interviews has led me to no different conclusion. That said, the better
view, in any event, is likely to be the testimony of the men and women who
worked with Sergeant McCabe in the years before he made the complaints
that have been examined in this report.
20.7 The Byrne-McGinn investigation received statements from all of the District
Officers who had responsibility for Bailieboro District between 2003 and
2010. Chief Superintendent Gabriel Mclntyre said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be very positive and energetic in his
position. He displayed a strong work ethic with a strong emphasis in
community policing and to providing a high standard of policing to
the community."
20.8 Detective Superintendent Eugene Corcoran said:
"I found Sergeant McCabe to be capable and enthusiastic in his
approach to his duties. At all times I found him to be efficient. . . . I
would assess his performance very positively. In my experience he
was hard working and efficient. He understood the need to keep the
District Officer advised of all matters requiring attention at
Superintendent Level. . . . I found him to be very interested in his
work and in ensuring that matters were attended to promptly."
I 20.9 Retired Superintendent Liam Hogan said:
"I considered Sergeant McCabe to be an excellent Sergeant and
member of An Garda Siochana. He offered 200% commitment and was
my one of my most reliable members in the District. I relied on him, I
trusted him implicitly and I listened to his advice. . . . He was full of
enthusiasm with a very positive attitude. I was aware that he worked Chapter 20 Conclusions and Recommendations
hard and long hours displaying absolute loyalty and commitment to
An Garda Siochana, to the management team in the District, to his
colleagues and to the people of Balieboro. He took a particular
interest in the work progress and welfare of junior members in the
District HQ."
20.10 Superintendent M Lernihan said:
"I found [Sergeant McCabe] to be efficient, flexible and committed.
He was diligent in the performance of his duties. He encouraged and
directed those under his supervision and had a good working
relationship with the other Sergeants."

What is Workplace Bullying?

The purpose of bullying is to hide inadequacy. It has nothing to do with managing: Management is managing; bullying is not managing. Anyone who chooses to bully implicitly admits their inadequacy.

Some people project their inadequacy onto others:

to avoid facing up to and doing something about it;
to avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour and the effect it has; and
to dilute their fear of being seen as weak, inadequate and possibly incompetent; and
to divert attention away from the same: In badly run workplaces, bullying is the way that inadequate, incompetent and aggressive employees keep their jobs and obtain promotion.
Bullying destroys teams, causing disenchantment, demoralisation, demotivation, disaffection, and alienation. Bullies run dysfunctional and inefficient organisations; staff turnover and sickness absence are high whilst morale, productivity and profitability are low. Any perceived efficiency gains from bullying are a short term illusion: Long term prospects are always at serious risk.

Bullying behaviours are behind all forms of harassment, discrimination, prejudice, abuse, persecution, terrorism, conflict and violence. Understanding bullying gives a person the opportunity to understand that which underpins almost all forms of reprehensible behavior. Because of that, bullying remains the single most important social issue of today.

Workplace Bullying tends to happen in phases that can be called (1) Isolation, (2) Control and Subjugation and (3) Elimination. The terminology in the examples applies to workplaces but has parallels in other situations. Examples are loosely categorised under the "Phase" headings but in reality any of the example behaviours can occur in any phase.

Isolation

constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool the people (including the target) into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication.
simultaneous with the criticism, a persistent refusal to acknowledge the target and his or her contributions and achievements or to recognise their existence and value;
constant attempts to undermine the target and his or her position, status, worth, value and potential where the target is in a group (eg at work),
being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on, marginalized, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, "sent to Coventry"
The above can be done with or without the cover of a formal disciplinary or capability procedure.

Control and Subjugation

being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment the target puts a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against them;
being belittled, demeaned and patronised, especially in front of others;
being humiliated, shouted at and threatened, often in front of others being overloaded with work, or having all their work taken away and replaced with either menial tasks (filing, photocopying, minute taking) or with no work at all finding that their work, and the credit for it, is stolen and plagiarised;
having responsibility increased but authority removed;
having annual leave, sickness leave, and (especially) compassionate leave refused
being denied training necessary to fulfill duties
having unrealistic goals set, which change as they approach, also deadlines change at short notice, or no notice, and the target only finds out when its too late to do anything about it.
being the subject of gossip which has the effect of damaging one's reputation.
Elimination

the target finds that everything they say and do is twisted, distorted and misrepresented;
is subjected to disciplinary procedures with verbal or written warnings imposed for trivial or fabricated reasons and without proper investigation, or with a sham investigation;
is coerced into leaving through no fault of their own, constructive dismissal, early or ill-health retirement, etc
is dismissed following specious allegations of misconduct or incapability which have just a grain of truth, to give superficial legitimacy to the dismissal.
One way to conceal bullying is to have regular or even continuous "reorganisations", where:-

targets can be "organized out" - this applies to anyone whose face doesn't fit, i.e. anyone who has identified, complained about or challenged problems with the status quo;
they can have their roles "regraded" or "redefined", if not being organised out.
The bully's allies and political pawns can be promoted to positions of influence.
Where a re-organisation seems pointless or counter-productive, or if it involves a disproportionate amount of disruption in relation to the perceived benefit of the change, it could be a smokescreen to conceal (and be a vehicle of) bullying. People are so busy coping with the chaos that bullying goes unnoticed. At the same time, the person responsible can claim to be reorganising in the name of efficiency, thus earning him or her the respect of superiors.

Business stakeholders should note that bullying, and these forms of concealment, may be distracting attention from financial fraud, corruption, misappropriation of funds and so on.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't honestly know anything about breath testing, having never been involved in it, but yea it looks like it was ordinary Gardai that claimed more tests were done.
I don't think any Gardai blackgarded mccabe, maybe you could point out exactly what they did?.......
And I suggest you research and read up on the Dean Lyons case, nobody.stitched him up, as you suggest. It was a serious miscarriage of justice, but most certainly not a stitch up.

bubblypop wrote: »

I'm going to back out of this thread now, in case anyone assumes I'm somehow backing the Garda commissioner!
I'm not, couldn't care less & can't believe she didn't retire months ago.

RustyNut wrote: »

Read this thread from post 135 on. Your colleague, Potential-Monke says that a report showed Sergeant McCabe as someone who was not capable of making correct decisions, someone with poor interpersonal skills and someone who was not a very good Sergeant.

When asked to link to the report your other colleague garda cullen states that it is the Guerin Report.

The report actually says

You might answer this before you back out of this thread.

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

You might answer this before you back out of this thread.

What do you want me to answer?
This thread is about the commissioner not stepping down? I have already stated i was backing out because i don't want people to think i am on here defending her, or Garda management for that matter. I have no interest in that or them, whatsoever.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

What do you want me to answer?
This thread is about the commissioner not stepping down? I have already stated i was backing out because i don't want people to think i am on here defending her, or Garda management for that matter. I have no interest in that or them, whatsoever.

I don't think any Gardai blackgarded mccabe, maybe you could point out exactly what they did?.......

RustyNut

RustyNut wrote: »

I don't think any Gardai blackgarded mccabe, maybe you could point out exactly what they did?.......

That? Which really is another thread, your link didn't show anywhere that a Garda member did anything against Maurice McCabe. In fact one of those links is to a thread 21 pages long.

Dayo93

RustyNut wrote: »

Was it not ordinary "decent" guards that done the million breath tests that never happened, was it not ordinary "decent" guards, including some that post on here, that blaugarded Maurice McCabe, was it not ordinary "decent" guards that stitched up Dean Lyons for a murder he couldn't have committed etc, etc, etc.......

And i would suspect under there super's command were told to input this data , the ordinary rank and file have nothing to gain but you will find the top brass do by meeting targets

mattser

Donal55 wrote: »

Thats it in a nutshell. Spot on.

Breadth tests ? The plot thickens. Sorry, couldn't resist.

melloa

mattser wrote: »

Breadth tests ? The plot thickens. Sorry, couldn't resist.

step away from the ve-hicle

Little CuChulainn

bubblypop wrote: »

That? Which really is another thread, your link didn't show anywhere that a Garda member did anything against Maurice McCabe. In fact one of those links is to a thread 21 pages long.

Don't bother. He thinks any criticism of McCabe is bullying. You won't get anywhere discussing that matter with him.

RustyNut

bubblypop wrote: »

That? Which really is another thread, your link didn't show anywhere that a Garda member did anything against Maurice McCabe. In fact one of those links is to a thread 21 pages long.

Except completely misrepresent a report for the purpose of bullying Sgt Mcabe

melloa

honesty is the best policy

melloa

tell the truth and shame the devil

tbh this bint isnt to blame for this breath bag scandal, that shoyte has being going on since Brian Boru

melloa

i had a nice task at the weekend convincing my nephew (10), that law enforcement is honest,

it's alright for old cynical ones like ourselves,

but we could have a disaster generation coming up if generation z don't respect the police

.........

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

Nobody does brass neck like the Irish.

Or rather no one else tolerates and bows to it as much as the Irish

.........

Dayo93 wrote: »

And i would suspect under there super's command were told to input this data , the ordinary rank and file have nothing to gain but you will find the top brass do by meeting targets

and getting promotions and fat golden pensions for doing so . . .

BoatMad

melloa wrote: »

i had a nice task at the weekend convincing my nephew (10), that law enforcement is honest,

it's alright for old cynical ones like ourselves,

but we could have a disaster generation coming up if generation z don't respect the police

or any of the institutions of the state

we really screwed up didn't we:o

Beyondgone

I'm possibly off on this, but is Noreen the boss? I thought the Boss got to decide who "went" and who stayed. So she is the Boss? She gets to decide? Lol. The others must have some dirt on them.

BoatMad

......... wrote: »

and getting promotions and fat golden pensions for doing so . . .

no garda grade is badly paid

melloa

not being funny or anything but it's like an episode of police acadamy

Graces7

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Clearly Noireen O'Sullivan inherited an almighty mess from her predecessors.

The more I learn about it the more I think she should be kept on. It will take a long time to uncover all the corruption and nonsense that went on, and at least some of what went on before has been uncovered on her watch.

A lot of previous commissioners retired from the job smelling of roses, when clearly there was a lot of nonsense going on in the background. So you can either cover it all up and look great or uncover it.

At some stage there needs to be a huge restructure of the Gardaí. Keep O'Sullivan in place until a proper structure has been agreed on and implemented and then she can step aside.

"Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know.."

steddyeddy

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

My two First Cousins are Gaurds and 100 per cent have distance themselves for the public. One off them was mad into Soccer and never had any other interest in other sports now he loves the GAA sports ? I said this the him and he went red in the face .

Yea I knew someone who left the gaurds like some sort of cultist. Hung around with gaurds only and kept to himself. And they wonder why people don't trust them?

please helpThank YOU

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yea I knew someone who left the gaurds like some sort of cultist. Hung around with gaurds only and kept to himself. And they wonder why people don't trust them?

What is with the Gaurds and the GAA?. I Went to Garda Station a few years back to hand in my driving Licence Insurance cert it was on the hot summers day. The day of the all Irish hurling final and the the radio on in Garda Station the Garda said its nice day today. He asked me was I listen to the radio to all Irish hurling final and I said no interest in GAA hurling. Next what ever way I looked there was four other garda in Station they give me Dagger looks over saying I have no interest in GAA hurling.

YourSuperior

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

What is with the Gaurds and the GAA?. I Went to Garda Station a few years back to hand in my driving Licence Insurance cert it was on the hot summers day. The day of the all hurling final and the the radio on in Garda Station the Garda said its nice day today. He asked me was I listen to the radio to all hurling final and I said no interest in GAA hurling. Next what ever way I looked there was four other garda in Station they give me Dagger looks over saying I have no interest in GAA hurling.

You don't follow social norms -- cultural, societal expectations and can't be trusted. They were attempting to enforce social norms informally through body language and non-verbal communication cues.