SolarPV and Electric Cars

Shefwedfan

Ok, so Sparky arrived today. I have swapped to day/night meter etc etc

As part of current renovations of house I am looking at a number of heating/energy savings. Solar water heating was originally the plan but after a chat I had a look at SolarPV with switch to channel additional electricity to immersion before putting back into grid

I am just wondering has anyone with an electric car looked at SolarPV and have any findings?

Based on my current usage(without car) I would be looking at 3.18kWp solar system. I also got a mid-term option was a 2.12kWp.

Has anyone else reviewed SolarPV?

Gumbo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok, so Sparky arrived today. I have swapped to day/night meter etc etc

As part of current renovations of house I am looking at a number of heating/energy savings. Solar water heating was originally the plan but after a chat I had a look at SolarPV with switch to channel additional electricity to immersion before putting back into grid

I am just wondering has anyone with an electric car looked at SolarPV and have any findings?

Based on my current usage(without car) I would be looking at 3.18kWp solar system. I also got a mid-term option was a 2.12kWp.

Has anyone else reviewed SolarPV?

You need a storage bank to store the unused electricity iirc
When you say before selling back to the grid, where are you located?
Or am I reading that incorrectly, your not selling back but just not using.

Shefwedfan

kceire wrote: »

You need a storage bank to store the unused electricity iirc
When you say before selling back to the grid, where are you located?
Or am I reading that incorrectly, your not selling back but just not using.

Not selling, putting back into the grid. In Ireland you dont get paid for putting excess back into grid, you are probably aware of this

Water John

Certainly, the ROI on solar hot water heating is very poor. Unless a household has a few teenagers, who like long hot showers, we actually don't use a lot of hot water in a house. Spending 3/5K to do it for 9 months of the year is poor value.
Domestic PV is at present in limbo. Promised Govn't plan has yet to arrive, Ask Denis Naughton, why.
At present, at best you be giving it free, into the system.
If you can use it to replace daytime rates for some purpose, that is your best price, at present. Provided you can set up a system to do so.
I can't see how you can feed a small supply into an EV, never mind how long it would take to have any real effect.
Quenten Gargan would be a good technical guy on this.

Down the road a few years, there probably will be significant PV on the grid. The day rate at some points, with smart meters may fall.

Gumbo

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not selling, putting back into the grid. In Ireland you dont get paid for putting excess back into grid, you are probably aware of this

Yeah. I thought I read it incorrectly alright.
There's internal whispers in ESB on selling back to the grid, don't know when, what where or who as I've only heard it through my GF who heard it in there.

They are on a drive to reduc CO2 Figures.
I'm currently about to pull the trigger on Solar water panels for a home renovation but PV could be an option of the sell back comes in.

I'll ask here to ask around.

unkel

We have a 40 tube Kingspan solar water heating system (family of 5 with 4 females, soon to be teenagers). Needed a 360l cylinder anyway and all associated work, so going solar was only a few thousand on top. Payback time in the region of 5-10 years (very hard to do more precise sums)

Will go solar PV too as soon as there will be a decent feed in tariff (what you get for exporting to the grid) / subsidies. Many, many houses in NL / BE / DE are plastered with subsidised PV panels feeding the grid just for this reason. Government here could close down several fossil fuel electricity plants if this was the case here too.

@kceire - there was supposed to be a FIT announced some time this year. We're all sitting on the fence waiting

Mope

I have solar panels on my roof solely to heat the water up. Currently family of 4 + visitor with a long stay and there is enough water in the evening for everyone to wash up. Probably would not be enough if all people'd go shower, but... that rarely happens. These few weeks already is a joy to us as we do not need to use a single drop of gas to heat our water up.

I have no clue in power output of those panels, nor do I know the capacity of our water tank, but we are all happy campers here

cros13

I'm installing my third solar PV system right now for a family member.

Gumbo

cros13 wrote: »

I'm installing my third solar PV system right now for a family member.

You do this for a living or a hobby Cross?

cros13

kceire wrote: »

You do this for a living or a hobby Cross?

Hobby... the latest install I'm using microinverters for the first time. Just waiting on the panels.... it's going to be a 12.54kWp ground mount install with a Powerwall 2.



Was playing with the microinverters over the weekend:



It should cover ~82% of the bills including two EVs.... at least based on the energy meter data I've collected over the last few years.

Mope

There is loads of wood in your car :-) What car is this? Haven't seen interior like this

cros13

Mope wrote: »

There is loads of wood in your car :-) What car is this? Haven't seen interior like this

It's a BMW i3 with the "Suite" interior.

Me spreading the EV gospel to the heathens at the boards motors meet last weekend: :P

BoatMad

The ESB is totally against microgenetstion FIT , and so is the CER. so you can forget about solar PV and FIT

What's being discussed and is expected to be announced is FIT for solar farms. This is not aimed at microgenetstion and will be licensed etc.

The only option is powerwall type storage.

Other then a hobby interest , the economics of solar DHWH and solar PV are appalling at present.

unkel

Powerwall is extremely expensive. What's the ROI for your install, cros13? They must have huge electricity use with an array of panels that big!

If there's no FIT for microgeneration, I can't see much point in PV in Ireland for the average household (even if they have EV), unless somehow we can use our EVs as storage in a useful way.

n97 mini

cros13 wrote: »

It's a BMW i3 with the "Suite" interior.

Me spreading the EV gospel to the heathens at the boards motors meet last weekend: :P

Is that a chopping board on the dash? All's that's missing is the lettuce and tomatoes

BoatMad

Jeepers cros that wood looks like the car was made by ikea , sorry.

Mope

Oh lads Made me laugh in the morning reading these posts... chopping board/iKEA... and... weight of food doesn't help efficiency

steelboots

I considered SolarPV but my biggest issue\stumbling block was my EV is away from the house during the day Monday to Friday so during the day my power consumption is low when Solar is generating most power, and then at night when my consumption is highest the Solar is generating less. Unless you could sell to the grid during the day and consume at night I'm not going to go for it. 
Its a pitty because we could be so much greener as a country if there was some will by the government. I was watching a program recently about  atown in Germany (sorry can remember the name of program or town) but the houses were net generators of power and were making money from it.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB is totally against microgenetstion FIT , and so is the CER. so you can forget about solar PV and FIT

BoatMad wrote: »

Other then a hobby interest , the economics of solar DHWH and solar PV are appalling at present.

Eventually as battery storage gets cheaper they could see the largest consumers leaving the grid. In australia this is already happening... in Ireland there are issues for three to four months of the year getting enough sunlight or reliable wind without ludicrously overbuilding. But we're getting to the point that panels and batteries are cheap enough to pay back within a decade or so... provided you do the install yourself ('cause the "professional" installers are charging stupid money).

unkel wrote: »

Powerwall is extremely expensive. What's the ROI for your install, cros13? They must have huge electricity use with an array of panels that big!

Powerwall 2 AC 13.2kWh is €6300 ex VAT and excl. a few fittings and a meter.

Payback is ~12 years on the whole project. But individual phases of the project will pay off quicker. The microinverters are inflating the costs by ~€1700, but they mean I can take my time, don't have to overbuild anything more than the switchgear and main AC cable to the array and I also don't have high voltage DC which simplifies the cabling. I've used 16sqmm 5-core SWA out to the array so that if the microinverters don't work out I can look at putting 3-phase inverters at the array.

Consumption for the site at the moment is ~11000kWh annually.

cros13

steelboots wrote: »

Unless you could sell to the grid during the day and consume at night I'm not going to go for it.

Might be worth a small installation to cover the 300-400W your house is probably drawing during the day. After all... on day rate that's twice the price of your nightsaver.

steelboots wrote: »

Its a pitty because we could be so much greener as a country if there was some will by the government..

Up until the Part L boom, Northern Ireland had literally 100 solar pv installations for every one down south... with a smaller population.

BoatMad wrote: »

Jeepers cros that wood looks like the car was made by ikea , sorry.

Yup... I often say that to people.

ei9go

cros13 wrote: »

Might be worth a small installation to cover the 300-400W your house is probably drawing during the day. After all... on day rate that's twice the price of your nightsaver.

I was considering that. I have a baseload of about 150 watts during the day and was wondering about a 500w Solar PV Panel to eliminate that.

What would you suggest?

Water John

Nice work Cros. Pity it will be confined to tecky guys doing it as a hobby.

Pulling my hair out at how we are delaying on solar. One guy in Germany has a €10M fund and he goes around leasing roof space esp, sheds etc.
They have the same sunshine as Munster.

The loop to be considered is PV, Powerwall and EV's at a distributed domestic/ small commercial level. That should be, the Plan.
I see David Connolly, Aalborg University at the IWEA Conference. His stuff on a carbon neutral country is worth reading.

BTW last weekend, in the UK, because of installed solar PV, the demand on the grid was lower by day than by night. That will seriously alter day rates with smart metering.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/mar/28/uk-solar-energy-march-electricity

Gumbo

cros13 wrote: »

Might be worth a small installation to cover the 300-400W your house is probably drawing during the day. After all... on day rate that's twice the price of your nightsaver.

Fancy expanding your hobby over to my house..,..

unkel

kceire wrote: »

Fancy expanding your hobby over to my house..,..

+1

goz83

kceire wrote: »

Fancy expanding your hobby over to my house..,..

+2

Scottie99

Mope wrote: »

I have solar panels on my roof solely to heat the water up. Currently family of 4 + visitor with a long stay and there is enough water in the evening for everyone to wash up. Probably would not be enough if all people'd go shower, but... that rarely happens. These few weeks already is a joy to us as we do not need to use a single drop of gas to heat our water up.

I have no clue in power output of those panels, nor do I know the capacity of our water tank, but we are all happy campers here

I thought solar panels for hot water only maintained the heat not heated it up?

Mope

Scottie99 wrote: »

I thought solar panels for hot water only maintained the heat not heated it up?

Oh it heats it up big time. Water is getting as hot as 50+ degrees and on very sunny days even more.

I have it limited to 70' C I think (just so it's not boiling water when I turn the Gas heating on).

It works like car cooling system, just the opposite. Panels heat up and pipes filled with special coolant liquid move this hot liquid down to my water tank, where there is a spiral type of layout on bottom of it. Water heats up by being in touch with these pipes. Coolant is moved around by tiny pump which you cant really hear even, it sounds like very fast ticking clock.

The system itself is set to "start" the process when water and panel temp difference is greater than 4 or 5' C.

My house is built few years ago

cros13

kceire wrote: »

Fancy expanding your hobby over to my house..,..

I should mention that the inverters I'm using are technically not approved for grid connection in Ireland... not because they're not safe.... just cause there's no market for the manufacturers to bother putting them through the Irish specific certifications.

They comply... but I don't have the bit of paper....

antoinolachtnai

What will happen if the mains goes out? Do the inverters shut down?

cros13

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What will happen if the mains goes out? Do the inverters shut down?

Yup, G59 relay that cuts off power from the inverters is part of EN50438. All inverters built for the european market comply with en50438 and with the exception of one setting the latest version of en50438 (en50438-2013) exceeds the requirements of the special "Irish addendum to en50438".

The Irish addendum is one of those additional things that screws the solar market in Ireland. At one point you could pay £20 for a microgeneration meter that was en50438 and MGS certified in the UK and have to pay €400 for the same $%£ing meter down to the batch number with the addition of a bit of paper that ESB required.

I just go for en50438-2013 gear and load a profile that meets the irish settings... otherwise you're stuck with a few bosch and sma inverters that are 2-4 generations old, a micro inverter enphase has discontinued and a few cheap chinese inverter people use for part L stuff that I wouldn't be surprised to see burst into flames spontaneously.

goz83

cros13 wrote: »

I should mention that the inverters I'm using are technically not approved for grid connection in Ireland... not because they're not safe.... just cause there's no market for the manufacturers to bother putting them through the Irish specific certifications.

They comply... but I don't have the bit of paper....

I don't think anyone would give a fcuk


Now, where is that bit of paper for my CP? :pac:

Shefwedfan

cros13 wrote: »

I'm installing my third solar PV system right now for a family member.

Hi cros13 as you are not the resident expert. The optimal position to install the PV would be on roof right in front of driveway. Miss Shefwedfan is not a fan of this. "First thing people see" etc etc

So I have a 32ft wooden shed at back of house, facing the correct position. How heavy are the actual PV panels? could you potentially put them onto the shed? The sheds are wooden with a roof of plywood and then felt on top of it.

I am about to reseed the garden and thinking of digging up and running a 6 inch pipe underground from sheds to house so if I put in PV I can always run a cable at a later date

Water John

If you wait a few years Schef, you'll be able to spray it on. Perovskite is cheap and much higher efficiency than silicon.
Stabilising it is the main problem.

http://www.standard.net/Business/2017/03/26/The-wonder-material-that-may-make-spray-on-solar-PV-reality

If its cheap enough, they need not bother aligning it with the sun, simply lay it flat on the ground.

This may some idea of where PV will go and the grid impact of it within 10 years.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

I should mention that the inverters I'm using are technically not approved for grid connection in Ireland... not because they're not safe.... just cause there's no market for the manufacturers to bother putting them through the Irish specific certifications.

They comply... but I don't have the bit of paper....

Would you pm me with a link

BoatMad

Mope wrote: »

Oh it heats it up big time. Water is getting as hot as 50+ degrees and on very sunny days even more.

I have it limited to 70' C I think (just so it's not boiling water when I turn the Gas heating on).

It works like car cooling system, just the opposite. Panels heat up and pipes filled with special coolant liquid move this hot liquid down to my water tank, where there is a spiral type of layout on bottom of it. Water heats up by being in touch with these pipes. Coolant is moved around by tiny pump which you cant really hear even, it sounds like very fast ticking clock.

The system itself is set to "start" the process when water and panel temp difference is greater than 4 or 5' C.

My house is built few years ago

Could never see how the economics of Sokar DHWS worked.

unkel

Wouldn't be economical for you BoatMad as you only use 1,000kWh electricity and 100m3 gas per year

If however you are a family of 5 all having daily baths and powerful long showers, it's starting to make a lot more sense.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Wouldn't be economical for you BoatMad as you only use 1,000kWh electricity and 100m3 gas per year

If however you are a family of 5 all having daily baths and powerful long showers, it's starting to make a lot more sense.

I ran the calculations repeatedly, looking at multiple scenarios ( I have two girls , now all grown up , but I know all about hot water consumption as I had two power showers that delivered 10 litres a minutes !)

in everything I looked at two things stuck out

(a) most heated water went to waste during the day time ( no one home )
(b) return on capital invested approached 12-15 years , without taking into account future cost of money or opportunity costs , thi sis an incredibly long payback. in my opinion 5 years would be the maximum payback IMHO

Everybody I asked, either fudged the numbers , or hadn't done a viable cost benefit analysis or where just doing it on a " hobby " reasoning

unkel

Opportunity costs are zero these days. They are for me anyway. Got a good deal on the system, we got (and need) a highly insulated SS 360l cylinder (which loses 1C per 24h, so no waste at all really) and have a 2 bar pump. And family of 5 (4 females). We use a lot of hot water!

ROI about 7 years for me (high quality subsidised install, did nothing myself)

Max ROI of 5 years is incredibly harsh. You will not get a ROI of 5 years on anything renewable unless you buy very cheap materials and DIY the install.

BoatMad

Max ROI of 5 years is incredibly harsh. You will not get a ROI of 5 years on anything renewable unless you buy very cheap materials and DIY the install.

I know, but business planning is done on 3-4 payback

opportunity costs are never zero , as simply investing the capital will return a positive number ( even if its low ) and that return should be added back into the calculations

I accept if may work for edge cases , as a general comment it doers work

( note that its irrelevant if the cylinder never looses any heat at all ) , the fact remains that a heating capacity exists for which there is no demand , thats not a good design feature

cros13

I agree, my math came out that it would be very difficult to justify solar thermal.

There's also a much lower lifespan for most of the equipment vs PV, higher risks from plumbing in the general area of your roof space, high initial costs and you only get hot water out of it...

PV is a lot more flexible, cheaper, easier to DIY and there are lots of ways to use the power you get.

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

The ESB is totally against microgenetstion FIT , and so is the CER. so you can forget about solar PV and FIT

What's being discussed and is expected to be announced is FIT for solar farms. This is not aimed at microgenetstion and will be licensed etc.

The only option is powerwall type storage.

Other then a hobby interest , the economics of solar DHWH and solar PV are appalling at present.

You should visit next weeks energy show

cros13

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hi cros13 as you are not the resident expert. The optimal position to install the PV would be on roof right in front of driveway. Miss Shefwedfan is not a fan of this. "First thing people see" etc etc

So I have a 32ft (9.75 m) wooden shed at back of house, facing the correct position. How heavy are the actual PV panels? could you potentially put them onto the shed? The sheds are wooden with a roof of plywood and then felt on top of it.

Sure... you'd be able to do 4-7 kWp of panels depending on the style and pitch of roof.

The roof pitch is probably going to be an issue. Ideally the pitch of the panels should be ~45 degrees which strikes a good balance between summer and winter sun.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I am about to reseed the garden and thinking of digging up and running a 6 inch (15.24 cm) pipe underground from sheds to house so if I put in PV I can always run a cable at a later date

Worth having. Be worth putting some lengths of string in the pipe too to make pulling cables a bit easier later on. CAT5E or CAT6 network cable would be handy too as most inverter/microinverters these days have cloud-based monitoring etc.

goz83

ted1 wrote: »

You should visit next weeks energy show

Where is it on?

ted1

goz83 wrote: »

Where is it on?

RDS. http://www.seai.ie/EnergyShow/
That's when announcements are usually made.

goz83

ted1 wrote: »

RDS.

Bah! Was hoping the NSC would have it

caster

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Hi cros13 as you are not the resident expert. The optimal position to install the PV would be on roof right in front of driveway. Miss Shefwedfan is not a fan of this. "First thing people see" etc etc

Would she mind if looked like this ?

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-roof

Shefwedfan

caster wrote: »

Would she mind if looked like this ?

http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-roof

She would have no problem but it will be a while before that is available here

Budget might get hit

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

You should visit next weeks energy show

I am

Gumbo

BoatMad wrote: »

I am

+1

I'm driving the Tesla Model S.

JohnnyB23

cros13 wrote:

Hobby... the latest install I'm using microinverters for the first time. Just waiting on the panels.... it's going to be a 12.54kWp ground mount install with a Powerwall 2.

Hi Cross, what kind of money would you be talking from that size of an array?

cros13

JohnnyB23 wrote: »

Hi Cross, what kind of money would you be talking from that size of an array?

DIY generally works out at €1k per installed kWp including inverter these days. I'm throwing in a little more with the microinverters, battery and prepping as much as possible of the cabling etc. for other solutions like three-phase inverters at the array. I'm also doing in four phases (approx. proportion of the property's annual energy consumption in brackets):

Phase 1 is 4.18kWp PV (33% of annual consumption)
Phase 2 is 13.2kWh battery (38% of annual consumption)
Phase 3 is 4.18kWp PV (54% of annual consumption)
Phase 4 is 4.18kWp PV (80% of annual consumption)

This is for a high consumption premises (three times the national average) with multiple EVs charging, some electric heating, power tools and water pumps.