New junior cert, core subjects being cut

Pinkycharm

Our principal put the idea to us of making history, geography and religion options for first years coming in. Obviously those departments are in arms over it. Can anybody here just let me know if you are offering short courses, what they are and if any core subject is being made an option.

evolving_doors

See term 'Hobson's choice'.


I reckon there will be many staff rooms up and down the country where teacher will be pitted against teacher... subject against subject.
And all for what?

Do staff actually get to vote on a range of options?

implausible

History and Geography are neither core subjects or compulsory.

rainbowtrout

We have English, Irish, Maths, CSPE.
Then Science, foreign language (French or German).
Then any other four from the remaining subjects. History and Geography used to be compulsory in our school but following the reduction of subjects at JC Level they were put into the options. We would typically have three classes per year group and I think Geography came out with two classes and History with one in the options.

Religion is non exam. History and Geography are not core subjects, it's only that most schools offer them as compulsory subjects at JC Level. We are not offering short courses.

r93kaey5p2izun

Currently our students must take English, Irish, Maths, Science, History, Geography, Religion and CSPE. They choose 3 options in 1st Year and do 2 for JC.

They'll be doing the same for the new JC but with CSPE as part of Wellbeing. We aren't doing short courses. No subjects are being dropped or made non-compulsory but Science and options are losing time allocation.

maynooth_rules

implausible wrote: »

History and Geography are neither core subjects or compulsory.

Which is a depressing indictment on the Secondary System in Ireland.

rainbowtrout

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Which is a depressing indictment on the Secondary System in Ireland.

well you could put forward that argument for any subject really.

maynooth_rules

rainbowtrout wrote: »

well you could put forward that argument for any subject really.

Possibly, but the argument would surely be stronger for some subjects rather than others. I would personally be of the belief that Maths, English, Science, Geography and History are vital in a child's education and should be compulsory. A little part of me died when I used to teach in a school that didn't even have History as an option for first years
All just my opinion though

judeboy101

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Possibly, but the argument would surely be stronger for some subjects rather than others. I would personally be of the belief that Maths, English, Science, Geography and History are vital in a child's education and should be compulsory. A little part of me died when I used to teach in a school that didn't even have History as an option for first years
All just my opinion though

Religion is also vital in a Childs' education, you cant get to heaven with geography or history .

evolving_doors

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Possibly, but the argument would surely be stronger for some subjects rather than others. I would personally be of the belief that Maths, English, Science, Geography and History are vital in a child's education and should be compulsory. A little part of me died when I used to teach in a school that didn't even have History as an option for first years
All just my opinion though

Hey, what about the arts....

Ooooo a subject off... bring it onnnn.

Oh wait, deja vu

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057219343/3/#post90624970

TheDriver

What about SPHE? That's probably the most important subject but we tend to treat it as a last grasp on a timetable

happywithlife

I'm throwing my hat in with Home Economics so -- nutrition & healthy cooking methods in an age of childhood obesity; budgeting & consumer studies; appliances; services to the home; Just did mortgages etc with my leaving certs last month; how to put on a round of washing for heavens sake! (Homework assignment for 2 classes this weekend btw). We still have minimal physiology to understand the body though I am critical of its proposed loss in the draft specification. Basic sewing skills - I do a lifeskills class with all mine on how to see on a button, darn a hole and turn up.a hem. ....essential lifeskills much?

Millem

happywithlife wrote: »

I'm throwing my hat in with Home Economics so -- nutrition & healthy cooking methods in an age of childhood obesity; budgeting & consumer studies; appliances; services to the home; Just did mortgages etc with my leaving certs last month; how to put on a round of washing for heavens sake! (Homework assignment for 2 classes this weekend btw). We still have minimal physiology to understand the body though I am critical of its proposed loss in the draft specification. Basic sewing skills - I do a lifeskills class with all mine on how to see on a button, darn a hole and turn up.a hem. ....essential lifeskills much?

Oh listen I totally agree with you!!!!
Home ec very popular in our school probably the most popular option but if hour long classes come in it will kill the subject (for the teacher and the students) we will only be given 1 hour singles not 2 hour block.

Our principal wants short course in basic cookery and home ec to stay in option.
All well and good but no short course has been designed yet for basic cookery.

happywithlife

Millem wrote: »

Oh listen I totally agree with you!!!!
Home ec very popular in our school probably the most popular option but if hour long classes come in it will kill the subject (for the teacher and the students) we will only be given 1 hour singles not 2 hour block.

Our principal wants short course in basic cookery and home ec to stay in option.
All well and good but no short course has been designed yet for basic cookery.

Id fight that tooth and nail because cookery is Home Ec's biggest selling point to students - it'd be the death toll for home ec in a school if cookery came in as short courses

Millem

happywithlife wrote: »

Id fight that tooth and nail because cookery is Home Ec's biggest selling point to students - it'd be the death toll for home ec in a school if cookery came in as short courses

TBH it would be no harm if our numbers went down a little. We can barely manage as it is......we don't have the man power. As it stands we cant offer it to 5th lca and 6th Lca as an exam subject. We are alternating now between elective and exam subject. We have had to cut back to one group in 5th and 1 group in 6th year. We can only offer it to 3 groups at Jc level whereas some years we had 4.
We had 3 teachers but now 2 and we now have a huge amount of CIDs.
Unless we could offer someone 22 hours home ec and another subject we won't be able to get anyone.

Anyway I can't see it really affecting our kids as the majority of the students in my class are choose it for the sewing/craft element not cooking.

r93kaey5p2izun

Home Ec will definitely be impacted by the issues getting subs anyway - let alone short courses. It is a very popular option in my school but, having been unable to get a sub for two full maternity leaves, management have dedcided to reduce HE provision and make the HE teachers teach their second subject for half their timetables. The intention is that one can do a full HE timetable to cover in the event of absence, and it will be easier get a sub for the second subjects.

The HE teachers are unhappy about this and students are unhappy about less class availability, but the current situation of classes left with no teacher for months is untenable. I think the option of short courses might be seen as a compromise in my school.

deiseindublin

You talking about the ML in HE department has me thinking that it's the one subject where I haven't come across a male teacher. Wonder are there many in the country?

happywithlife

deiseindublin wrote: »

You talking about the ML in HE department has me thinking that it's the one subject where I haven't come across a male teacher. Wonder are there many in the country?

There have been a few male graduates but only know of one teaching - think he's down south east somewhere.
That Mat leave situation annoys me as I've always heard people- even on here - oh there's loads of jobs in home ec - there's not. There's loads of subbing jobs in home ec but not a whole lot of "real" jobs anymore than any other subject.

Millem

We can never get a home ec sub. Have tried to get one for me for this year but no joy
Myself and other home ec teacher only teach home ec and not our electives....which suits us tbh. We really should have cookery classes for students with additional needs. I can't remember the exact term under new junior cycle.....basically they have them separately....it's more of just life skills. Again we can't fit them into our current timetable. All our classes are maxed out with 20 students. Even 5th and 6th years. I have no doubt there would of been a demand for 2 5th year groups.

happywithlife

Millem wrote: »

We can never get a home ec sub. Have tried to get one for me for this year but no joy
Myself and other home ec teacher only teach home ec and not our electives....which suits us tbh. We really should have cookery classes for students with additional needs. I can't remember the exact term under new junior cycle.....basically they have them separately....it's more of just life skills. Again we can't fit them into our current timetable. All our classes are maxed out with 20 students. Even 5th and 6th years. I have no doubt there would of been a demand for 2 5th year groups.

Is that level.two or something like that?
Agree. Is it me or do people find in general there are more and more students with exceptional SEN needs in our schools? I'm not talking run of the mill diagnosis but students that require SIGNIFICANT help and resources allocated to them and I do wonder what overall benefits they are receiving? I often think some specific students I have taught would be better served learning lifeskills for independent living than having minimal inclusion in mainstream- and that's through no fault of the teachers staff management or the child themselves- as I said I'm thinking of a few minor specific students I've encountered over the years

Millem

happywithlife wrote: »

Is that level.two or something like that?
Agree. Is it me or do people find in general there are more and more students with exceptional SEN needs in our schools? I'm not talking run of the mill diagnosis but students that require SIGNIFICANT help and resources allocated to them and I do wonder what overall benefits they are receiving? I often think some specific students I have taught would be better served learning lifeskills for independent living than having minimal inclusion in mainstream- and that's through no fault of the teachers staff management or the child themselves- as I said I'm thinking of a few minor specific students I've encountered over the years

Happywithlife I absolutely agree! Yes it's those level two classes. We would have a high enough number of the students you are talking about.

Millem

happywithlife wrote: »

There have been a few male graduates but only know of one teaching - think he's down south east somewhere.
That Mat leave situation annoys me as I've always heard people- even on here - oh there's loads of jobs in home ec - there's not. There's loads of subbing jobs in home ec but not a whole lot of "real" jobs anymore than any other subject.

Absolutely agree with you. There are girls who qualified before me who still don't have their own jobs. Loads of mat leaves and some career breaks. All the CIDS in my school are preventing real jobs though. There is no chance of us getting a real job of a new home ec teacher.

The staff qualifications will dictate what subjects are put on for core in my school. Their timetables have to be filled regardless.

Our principal has said will still give us 3 groups for JC home ec. As we will lose 40 minutes contact time every week as new home ec course is only 200 hours. Tbh I don't think will we will have a problem filling them.

Our principal has made a list of what subjects we are qualified to teach.

Pinkycharm

Just an update. I think every subject should be treated equally, these new short courses are mad. I'm in a boys school and home ec is something we would love but it's just not offered. History and Geography are safe for time being after an emergency staff meeting and religion is remaining on the line for the minute which isn't fair either.

implausible

Pinkycharm wrote:

Just an update. I think every subject should be treated equally, these new short courses are mad. I'm in a boys school and home ec is something we would love but it's just not offered.

Is that not the idea of short courses - to allow schools to offer different/new/more subjects without the commitment of three years study, a set syllabus and a terminal exam? So, for example, a school could offer Home Ec as a short course of Life Skills or Cookery​. Is it not very similar to offering modules in TY?

evolving_doors

implausible wrote: »

Is that not the idea of short courses - to allow schools to offer different/new/more subjects without the commitment of three years study, a set syllabus and a terminal exam? So, for example, a school could offer Home Ec as a short course of Life Skills or Cookery​.Is it not very similar to offering modules in TY?

But the Dept are expecting teachers to come up with their own courses. That's the NCCA's job. All well and good but if you're trying to say this ties in with 'wellness' and lifeskills then you're changing the nature of teaching.

I'm not a therapist or life coach.... nor do I ever want to be.

TY is a very different animal.

implausible

Gebgbegb wrote:

But the Dept are expecting teachers to come up with their own courses. That's the NCCA's job. All well and good but if you're trying to say this ties in with 'wellness' and lifeskills then you're changing the nature of teaching.

I'm not a therapist or life coach.... nor do I ever want to be.

TY is a very different animal.

I used Life Skills as an example of a short course title, not as an element of Wellness. I'll use a different example then - Food Studies could be a way of providing an element of Home Ec in a school that doesn't offer it.

I don't think TY is that different - you come up with modules to suit your particular school.

sryanbruen

happywithlife wrote: »

I'm throwing my hat in with Home Economics so -- nutrition & healthy cooking methods in an age of childhood obesity; budgeting & consumer studies; appliances; services to the home; Just did mortgages etc with my leaving certs last month; how to put on a round of washing for heavens sake! (Homework assignment for 2 classes this weekend btw). We still have minimal physiology to understand the body though I am critical of its proposed loss in the draft specification. Basic sewing skills - I do a lifeskills class with all mine on how to see on a button, darn a hole and turn up.a hem. ....essential lifeskills much?

I would not like to do Home Economics BUT I can agree with you on saying the importance of it. I do think that it is an essential subject. And just since we were on the topic of subjects (though it's off topic to what the thread title suggests ) that should be in schools, me and my friend (whom are nerds :rolleyes:, so nerd alert ) talked about subjects that we thought should be actual school subjects. These are the subjects we had in mind:

• Survival Studies
• Inventing
• Film Making
• Fiction Writing (a separate subject from English)
• Philosophy / History of Philosophy

Now with the exception of maybe Survival Studies (which is a very old school subject if you know what I mean :cool: and no, it is not similar to Home Economics), yes none of these are exactly essential but hey, they're options for the student and the more options we have, the better I say.

But hey, I'm only a student after all and only learning how Education works so I can become a teacher.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

I used Life Skills as an example of a short course title, not as an element of Wellness. I'll use a different example then - Food Studies could be a way of providing an element of Home Ec in a school that doesn't offer it.

I don't think TY is that different - you come up with modules to suit your particular school.

I'd agree that Home Ec is really important, but I think the reality of short courses is that 2 short courses = 1 regular subject, and I think parents are not going to let their children take two short courses instead of French /woodwork /history / business etc, particularly if it impacts their choices in 5th year, either by reducing the number of subjects they have to choose from or if schools have policies where you can only do the subject for LC if you did it for JC, or those that did it for JC get first preference and if the class is full tough luck.

The_Valeyard

implausible wrote: »

History and Geography are neither core subjects or compulsory.

They should be

Teapot30

What about music and art and design? are they still available subjects or are they being cut from schools?

implausible

Teapot30 wrote:

What about music and art and design? are they still available subjects or are they being cut from schools?

Subjects are not being 'cut', but a maximum of ten subjects for the junior cert is being imposed, a good idea in my opinion.