New junior cert, core subjects being cut

Teapot30

implausible wrote: »

Subjects are not being 'cut', but a maximum of ten subjects for the junior cert is being imposed, a good idea in my opinion.

So where does that leave art subjects? Science subjects, homec, geography, languages, history, maths, business will all get preferences over the arts so where does that leave teachers trained in art subjects? ... unemployed?

rainbowtrout

Teapot30 wrote: »

So where does that leave art subjects? Science subjects, homec, geography, languages, history, maths, business will all get preferences over the arts so where does that leave teachers trained in art subjects? ... unemployed?

Why do you say they will get cut or that other subjects will get preference? In my school English, Irish, maths, CSPE, Science, foreign language are their first six and they choose any other four from the remaining subjects. That's: Woodwork, Metalwork, Tech Graphics, Art, Music, Home Ec, Business, History, Geography.

I'd imagine that a lot of schools will operate on a similar basis. Also not sure why you've lumped maths into that list of subjects that will get preference. Maths is a core subject.

evolving_doors

I think a lot of schools used to have History and geography as a core subject... even though it's not 'compulsory'. So from what I've heard from a few schools they are fixing history and geography as 'compulsory'...
And I think science... and it's old nemesis... religion :pac: ...will stay compulsory. That's just my thoughts!

It was commented earlier that home Ec. and language Teachers are hard to get, so schools might try and reduce their class sizes in Junior cert. (Some schools offer 2 languages in JC so they might cut it down to 1)

Soooooo the poor relation of music and art might actually see an increase!! Could go either way. Wellbeing and all that.

I think we need to remind principals that the thinking on STEM has moved on to STEAM for the old creativity aspect.

rainbowtrout

I just had a look at the stats for JC Religion on examinations.ie. Out of the 60,000 odd students that did the JC last year, just over 27,000 did religion. To be honest i was surprised it was that high.

We brought in exam religion 3 years ago so our current third years will be the first to sit it and the second years coming behind them. We moved from 12 exam subjects for those year groups to 10 subject for the current first years, as it had to be done anyway. When the principal addressed the parents on the issue last year and had included religion in the compulsory list bringing compulsories to 7, with three from the 9 remaining subjects (that I listed in my previous post), there was uproar. Parents said no way, as they felt their children were losing out on a wide choice of subjects which would impact on their choices for LC. So religion was swiftly dropped. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen in other schools also.

Incidentally, 53 of our 68 first years are doing woodwork. That's 3 first year classes coming from a free choice.

r93kaey5p2izun

Lots of patrons will insist on Religion as compulsory even if not as an exam though. Voluntary schools with a religious patron will definitely keep it as compulsory - I know Ceist is insisting on 3 periods - and the religious patrons of most of the Designated Community Colleges under ETB management will also keep it compulsory.

I think ETB schools with no religious patron and a few Community and Comprehensive schools will be the only ones free to make Religion non compulsory, with perhaps a handful of exceptions. It will remain compulsory even if non exam in most schools.

rainbowtrout

Adley Spoiled Hunter wrote: »

Lots of patrons will insist on Religion as compulsory even if not as an exam though. Voluntary schools with a religious patron will definitely keep it as compulsory - I know Ceist is insisting on 3 periods - and the religious patrons of most of the Designated Community Colleges under ETB management will also keep it compulsory.

I think ETB schools with no religious patron and a few Community and Comprehensive schools will be the only ones free to make Religion non compulsory, with perhaps a handful of exceptions. It will remain compulsory even if non exam in most schools.

That's not the same thing.


Students are allowed take 10 subjects for JC Certification. That's not the same as studying religion in a non-exam capacity. I work in an ETB Designated Community College and our first years have 3 periods of religion on their timetable, it's just not an exam subject anymore, because parents didn't want it reducing their choice of subjects for examination. It has the same status as SPHE and PE as non exam subjects.

Schools can offer any amount of subjects to their first years, but they can only take 10 of them for examination.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's not the same thing.


Students are allowed take 10 subjects for JC Certification. That's not the same as studying religion in a non-exam capacity. I work in an ETB Designated Community College and our first years have 3 periods of religion on their timetable, it's just not an exam subject anymore, because parents didn't want it reducing their choice of subjects for examination. It has the same status as SPHE and PE as non exam subjects.

Schools can offer any amount of subjects to their first years, but they can only take 10 of them for examination.

Yes I understand the difference and fair enough you were talking purely about exam subjects. My post was not a direct reply to yours, but a more general comment on the wider discussion of cuts in various forms. Schools are making cuts to the number of subjects studied - not just for exam purposes, and to the the time allocation of various subjects to accommodate Wellbeing. But by and large Religion is safe from those cuts as it is protected by the patrons of the majority of schools. It will not be on the chopping block entirely as other subjects are.

Millem

We do religion as an exam subject for JC it is moving into a 100 hour course (I think).

Our school hasn't decided how many subjects our students will take yet.

evolving_doors

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's not the same thing.


Students are allowed take 10 subjects for JC Certification. That's not the same as studying religion in a non-exam capacity. I work in an ETB Designated Community College and our first years have 3 periods of religion on their timetable, it's just not an exam subject anymore, because parents didn't want it reducing their choice of subjects for examination. It has the same status as SPHE and PE as non exam subjects.

Schools can offer any amount of subjects to their first years, but they can only take 10 of them for examination.

Are you saying students are forbidden from doing more than 10 for the JC?

rainbowtrout

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Are you saying students are forbidden from doing more than 10 for the JC?

Yes. That's what the new junior cert is about. Students can take a maximum of 10 subjects for certification, so why would schools offer them more than that?

From the Juniorcycle.ie website:


Eight subjects or Seven subjects + 2 short courses or 6 subjects + 4 short courses
Or
Nine subjects or Eight subjects + 2 short courses or 7 subjects + 4 short courses
Or
Ten subjects or Nine subjects + 2 short courses or 8 subjects + 4 short courses



As i said earlier in the thread, I don't think short courses will take off on a large scale, when the number of subjects students are sitting has been reduced.

The_Valeyard

First exam course to be dropped should be cspe.

rainbowtrout

The_Valeyard wrote: »

First exam course to be dropped should be cspe.

Currently CSPE is a core subject, so that's not an option. The last CSPE exam will be in 2019 I think.

Nanana

The_Valeyard wrote: »

First exam course to be dropped should be cspe.

Incoming first years will not be taking CSPE as an exam subject. It will not be counted as one of the ten subjects for those first years onwards.

doc_17

STEM was an appropriate acronym. Not a fan of STEAM. Pretty sure someone wants to add the the R to make it STREAM and say it should be there for divine inspiration.

evolving_doors

I was talking to maths lecturer wished Maths was taken out of stem associations and put in to the arts category. He said he was tired of students asking him what the use of each topic was. He just liked maths 'for its own beauty' the same as folk admired a work of art or piece of music.

The_Valeyard

doc_17 wrote: »

STEM was an appropriate acronym. Not a fan of STEAM. Pretty sure someone wants to add the the R to make it STREAM and say it should be there for divine inspiration.

Is STEM to STEAM going to end up like various LGBT groups adding in letters as it develops.

Bananaleaf

In my opinion, a smart principal won't phase out subjects that he or she has 5/6 permanent teachers contracted to teach in his/her school. Where does he send 3/4 of those teachers if their subjects are no longer timetabled or compulsory? Makes no sense. From what I can see, things look set to stay as close to how they currently are in our place with maybe the odd short course possibly added here and there. No major talk of short courses just yet though in our place.

The_Valeyard

Bananaleaf wrote: »

In my opinion, a smart principal won't phase out subjects that he or she has 5/6 permanent teachers contracted to teach in his/her school. Where does he send 3/4 of those teachers if their subjects are no longer timetabled or compulsory? Makes no sense. From what I can see, things look set to stay as close to how they currently are in our place with maybe the odd short course possibly added here and there. No major talk of short courses just yet though in our place.

Very few schools going short courses. Seems to be lot of carry on as before, but this time without course content, examples, concrete objectives or an actual clue what the department is at.

spurious

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Very few schools going short courses. Seems to be lot of carry on as before,<snip>.

Which is much the same as what happened the last time there was a 'new' Junior Cert. and the 1992 version was in many ways an improvement on what went before. This version with its lack of external checks doesn't seem to me to be any great leap forward.

The_Valeyard

spurious wrote: »

Which is much the same as what happened the last time there was a 'new' Junior Cert. and the 1992 version was in many ways an improvement on what went before. This version with its lack of external checks doesn't seem to me to be any great leap forward.

We will see alright, but the cynic in me has trouble even seeing the baby steps.

doc_17

Most schools will have Coding and/or Digital Media Literacy within the next few years.

happywithlife

doc_17 wrote: »

Most schools will have Coding and/or Digital Media Literacy within the next few years.

Will they though? I think on one level you are right but then I think of a lot of the schools I've subbed in and their tech support has been deplorable. The school I'm currently in has a pc in every room and they are all giving trouble at the moment - mine might turn on it might not. The overhead might work or it may decide to power off in the middle of a presentation for no apparent reason - how does one reasonable expect to teach coding in such an environment? It's obviously very doable in the schools that have better IT infrastructure and Ipads etc but a lot of school lag behind in IT

rainbowtrout

I'd also think it would involve having a teacher that can code and be competent at it. The short courses are 100 hours, so an hour a week for 3 years. Even going at a slower pace, that's still a considerable amount of time to provide tuition. Without decent coding skills I'd wonder at a teacher that could stretch out a course for that long.

We are reintroducing TY to our school next year, after a break of 7 or 8 years. I will be teaching programming to them. It will give them a taster of what it is really like(I'll be teaching them C#) and they can consider it for college. When there isn't a course at LC level I can't see a massive uptake at JC level as a short course at the expense of one of the established subjects.

The_Valeyard

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd also think it would involve having a teacher that can code and be competent at it. The short courses are 100 hours, so an hour a week for 3 years. Even going at a slower pace, that's still a considerable amount of time to provide tuition. Without decent coding skills I'd wonder at a teacher that could stretch out a course for that long.

We are reintroducing TY to our school next year, after a break of 7 or 8 years. I will be teaching programming to them. It will give them a taster of what it is really like(I'll be teaching them C#) and they can consider it for college. When there isn't a course at LC level I can't see a massive uptake at JC level as a short course at the expense of one of the established subjects.

I'd start off with Python, a lot easier and fun tutorials with it.

joebloggs32

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I'd also think it would involve having a teacher that can code and be competent at it. The short courses are 100 hours, so an hour a week for 3 years. Even going at a slower pace, that's still a considerable amount of time to provide tuition. Without decent coding skills I'd wonder at a teacher that could stretch out a course for that long.

We are reintroducing TY to our school next year, after a break of 7 or 8 years. I will be teaching programming to them. It will give them a taster of what it is really like(I'll be teaching them C#) and they can consider it for college. When there isn't a course at LC level I can't see a massive uptake at JC level as a short course at the expense of one of the established subjects.

NCCA currently working up a syllabus for computer science in the leaving cert. They are anxious to get it rolled out quickly.

rainbowtrout

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I'd start off with Python, a lot easier and fun tutorials with it.

I learned C++, C,, C# in college. Too much on my plate at the moment to learn the syntax of a new language to the point where I can teach it competently.

I did some workshops after school for science week in c# and the students got on fine with them.

Also Microsoft visual studio is free to download.

rainbowtrout

joebloggs32 wrote: »

NCCA currently working up a syllabus for computer science in the leaving cert. They are anxious to get it rolled out quickly.

At that it could be a few years yet. Priority will be given to getting the new junior in in it's entirety. But I would welcome a CS syllabus. Long overdue