What would you sacrifice for the island whole again?

Alf Veedersane

Martin O'Neill for his little bro', Michael

Supercell

Heart says yes, but the inevitable Unionist "Love Ulster" types bombing Dublin/Cork wherever aka Belfast of old totally turns me of the idea.
Let the UK keep the lot of 'em.

Samaris

I am pretty neutral on the topic. I have little truck with nationalistic howsyerfathers and romantic notions of Destiny and Land of My Fathers. I do see it being messy, and I suspect it would absolutely plunge our economy back into the 1980s, because I don't think we can actually afford to pay the amount that the UK pays to keep NI going each year. We'd probably go back about sixty years in socio-political terms and I absolutely bet that terrorist groups would spring up like mushrooms again. It is nice being able to go to Dublin without worrying about a terrorist attack (yes, yes, ISIS, but that's not happened yet either). Religious nonsense coming to the fore as Reasons To Hate These Other Guys is also not on my "yay, celebrations" list either.

I really don't know what's going to happen with NI come Brexit, and I have sympathy for those living there that would prefer to be Irish (and EU citizens if it comes to that). I would also have sympathy for those who prefer being British and would be suddenly denationalised as well (and probably bullied, squashed and tormented in return for the past). I suspect it's more important to those who do attach stronger significance to nationality than I do. Not saying you're wrong, mind, just my viewpoint is different.

Basically, it's a s*** sandwich and we'd all have to take a large bite and hope it turned into something better in another sixty years time.

blueser

irishgrover wrote: »

what I would be willing to give up for a united Ireland

1. All and any influence (direct or indirect) of the catholic church
2. All elements of all religions in education
3. Sinn Fein
4. The healy rays
5. videos of irish people abroad trying to make viral videos of themselves "having the craic" and being the greatest "tourists/fans/travelers in the world", in the hopes that it will be picked up by joe.ie and then commented on thousands of times about how the irish are " the greatest, so proud to be Irish" almost exclusively by other Irish people...
6. Jedward
7. Chris De Burg and anyone related to him
8. Anyone related to Gerry Ryan
9. RTE - all of it, with the exception of current affairs & News
10. The Irish Language Acts - and the ludicrous legal status is has as equal to the english language and the utter waste associated with same
11. All county Councils
12. Ads for Brennans Bread
13. Fans of Garth Brooks (and line dancing)
14. Mid atlantic accents
15. The concept that if your family has only been here for 400 years that you don't have an opinion
16. The Irish Independent new group
17. TV3 - every last fu(king bit of it
18. George hook
19. Guess I could give up not being in the Commonwealth, at a push
20. The Rep of Ireland soccer team (if replaced by an all Ireland soccer team)
21. The legal right of parents of 10 year old Irish dancers to make their kids up like Jonbenet Ramsey, and pretend it's done for cultural reasons
22. Oh yea, Michael Flatley
23. THe Tri-colour

This is all the I am currently willing to commit to. Thank you OP, this has been quite a cathartic and introspective exercise :-)

You forgot Tommy Tiernan. And wee Daniel. And Tubridy.

Berserker

Samaris wrote: »

I really don't know what's going to happen with NI come Brexit, and I have sympathy for those living there that would prefer to be Irish (and EU citizens if it comes to that). I would also have sympathy for those who prefer being British and would be suddenly denationalised as well (and probably bullied, squashed and tormented in return for the past).

NI will chug along as part of the Union but it is going to need some extra cash to keep it afloat. Farming is going to take a hit up there, for example. The passport issue will be tricky. If they bring in an ESTA type system for entry in the UK then it is going to be very interesting for Irish passport holders in NI.

Stigura

Jack the Stripper wrote: »

A lister diesel cement mixer, we could build a wall.

Of course, Mamma's gonna help

_Kaiser_

Nothing... no interest in a "United" Ireland with all the social unrest, security issues and expense it would inevitably lead to.

Nationalist romanticism aside there's no logical reason for it.. besides, given the mess that is Government, Gardai/policing, Health, housing and the cost of living down here why would THEY want to throw their lot in with us anyway?

Glenster

Sectarianism?
Bloated Public Sector?
Gridlocked Politics?
Watercannons?
Crappy football teams?
Lisburn?

endacl

Just out of interest, when was Ireland ever 'united', in the modern sense of the term?

Responses should exclude references to a mythical past.

JupiterKid

BraveDonut wrote: »

Why would I sacrifice anything to see Loyalist terrorism on the streets of Dublin?

We saw it in 1974 and it wasn't a pretty sight.:(

FrancieBrady

JupiterKid wrote: »

We saw it in 1974 and it wasn't a pretty sight.:(

Allegedly that was British and Loyalist 'terrorism'.
Loyalists were generally regarded as not having the ability to bring their 'campaign' to the south.
It would be well nigh impossible for them to sustain a campaign in the future with the British delighted to be against them.

Rather than donate anything to this nonsense ideological cause, I'd actually have a few conditions I'd demand:

Each govt to admit that the Irish/Ulster Scots languages wheeze was a cod and has to go

Barra Best not to be let near the TV cameras ever again

Boards.ie mods would have to sign contracts agreeing to hunt down and terminate shinnerbots with the ferocity of hungry tigers

bnt

What would I sacrifice? Nothing. Talking about sacrifice is going about it the wrong way.

Imagine you could somehow wave a magic wand, the border went away and all 32 counties were governed from Leinster House. You would still have 3/4 million non-Catholics in a country with a Catholic state religion. What would happen to the schools in Ulster - would they be forced to switch to Catholic teachings? How well do you imagine that going down?

Ireland really does not need 3/4 million new residents whose views won't be represented, and who already have armed paramilitary organisations representing them. Religion and its role in government is the elephant in the room, on both sides of the border. This isn't a war for a piece of territory, it's a war for hearts and minds. The only way forward I can see is the total secularisation of Ireland, to become more like Denmark. Ireland has to stop being a Catholic country, even in the most superficial senses.

Peregrine

Probably wouldn't get up out of bed for it.

I couldn't give two ****es about either side in Northern Ireland. Independence from the UK would probably do them good in the long run though.

Harry Palmr

Ireland is so great I'm glad there are two of them.

IrishProd

For the reunification of Ireland I would sacrifice the following to the gods:

• the OP
• this stupid thread,
• The Church
• some of the posters here
• Anglophilic hibernophobes
• Fascists
• Rascists
• Imperialist apologists and revisionists
• Sectarianism
• Denis O´Brien
• HSE
• Michael Martin
• Joan Burton
• Niall Collins
• Willie O´Dea
• Alan Farrell
• Ruth Coppinger
• Bertie Ahern

A Little Pony

I'd want a Unionist mandatory representation in government, scrap the President, the Monarchy as head of state, eligibility to vote in Westminster elections, an annual 12th July parade through Dublin, free prescriptions, new police force, new Army, new anthem, Protestants free to drop out of Irish language classes if  they so wish.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Peregrine wrote: »

Probably wouldn't get up out of bed for it.

I couldn't give two ****es about either side in Northern Ireland. Independence from the UK would probably do them good in the long run though.

I couldn't see how they'd survive as an independent state tbh. It's not a realistic option for them.

IMO, people in the North have always had the opportunity to become citizens of the Republic. They chose to stay in the North for various reasons. Perhaps its the love of the land, or the love of better benefits from the British Government. I honestly don't care. They chose to stay part of the United Kingdom.

Uniting Ireland is a nice idea, but it's just not practical. The Republic has enough problems already without importing all the issues that would come with unification. I'm sure,

Recently there was a thread about allowing expats or Irish abroad to vote for presidental elections, and the majority of posts suggested that Irish people outside of Ireland shouldn't be given voting rights. Now, with this Unifying Ireland, many posters seem to think people who have never contributed to the Republic should, first be allowed to join, and secondly, to be supported even though NI is essentially a black hole for money.

Now that Britain can no longer afford to support them, they're looking to have someone else do it. Nah. Bugger that.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

I'd want a Unionist mandatory representation in government scrap the President, the Monarchy as head of state, eligibility to vote in Westminster elections, an annual 12th July parade through Dublin, free prescriptions, new police force, new Army, new anthem, Protestants free to drop out of Irish language classes if  they so wish.

The term 'unionist' would be redundant and archaic after a successful vote, would it not?

With the exception of a Monarch as the head of state, and 'mandatory' representation for any section of the community, I would have little problem negotiating on the rest.
You would have to explain where the 'traditional' route of an Orange march in Dublin is. In other words are you sure you just don't want to be provocative by insisting on it?

con___manx1

Jawgap wrote: »

You're right it won't be €6000 per household - it'll be more like €7,500 per household per year in the immediate aftermath of re-unification.

I'd give up our crappy public services if we meant we got better ones.

What if it was a graduall hand over instead of an instant one where the British government would still fund the north for say 5 or 10 years. I don't think it could ever be an instant hand over. Our education system, health system,emergencies services, taxes currency, public transport, army would all have to be merged together.
I think a graduall handover would be much less costly and it's the least the brittish government could do after the trouble they caused here.

Fighting Tao

con___manx1 wrote: »

What if it was a graduall hand over instead of an instant one where the British government would still fund the north for say 5 or 10 years. I don't think it could ever be an instant hand over. Our education system, health system,emergencies services, taxes currency, public transport, army would all have to be merged together.
I think a graduall handover would be much less costly and it's the least the brittish government could do after the trouble they caused here.

It would still cost a ridiculous amount. Why should we be burdened with the cost of cleaning the sheets after Sinn Feins wet dream?

Jawgap

con___manx1 wrote: »

What if it was a graduall hand over instead of an instant one where the British government would still fund the north for say 5 or 10 years. I don't think it could ever be an instant hand over. Our education system, health system,emergencies services, taxes currency, public transport, army would all have to be merged together.
I think a graduall handover would be much less costly and it's the least the brittish government could do after the trouble they caused here.

I think that'd be ideal but would that really be an option.....look at the squealing going on over the money they'll have to pay to the EU......I'm guessing if there was a vote to re-unite the island the Brits would want rid of the place as quickly and as totally as possible.....and we'd be the ones left standing under that particular "high ball."

We'd be committing economic, social and political suicide going anywhere near taking on that freak show!

FrancieBrady

If the British want out they will have no problem investing a number of years costs to them if it means they eventually get rid of that cost.
The nonsense talked about anybody being reticent about 'investing to save in the long term' is just that - nonsense talk.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If the British want out they will have no problem investing a number of years costs to them if it means they eventually get rid of that cost.
The nonsense talked about anybody being reticent about 'investing to save in the long term' is just that - nonsense talk.

i think you'll find the Brits, most assuredly, want out.....unfortunately (for them) they're stuck with the place.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

i think you'll find the Brits, most assuredly, want out.....unfortunately (for them) they're stuck with the place.

The British like SF are playing the long game. More and more involvement and consultation with the south, a steady decline in the subvention, etc etc.
Brexit was a surprise but you are now seeing senior ministers of the Tory government planting seeds.
I think you will see the announcement of a poll in the next few years.

The whole Gibraltar thing with the EU today is interesting too, haven't had time to give it much attention or to assess what it all means. It could stall them on NI for a bit though.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The British like SF are playing the long game. More and more involvement and consultation with the south, a steady decline in the subvention, etc etc.
Brexit was a surprise but you are now seeing senior ministers of the Tory government planting seeds.
I think you will see the announcement of a poll in the next few years.

The whole Gibraltar thing with the EU today is interesting too, haven't had time to give it much attention or to assess what it all means. It could stall them on NI for a bit though.

yeah, at the rate it's declining the cost of the zoo should be affordable in time for the bi-centenary of 1916

Zubeneschamali

Stanley Blade wrote: »

There is always a percentage of people who claim to be proud to be Irish

I think most people who are proud to be Irish are Americans.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

yeah, at the rate it's declining the cost of the zoo should be affordable in time for the bi-centenary of 1916

The direction is down and it's about to see a bigger fall. Even the most optimistic analyst would say that.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The direction is down and it's about to see a bigger fall. Even the most optimistic analyst would say that.

Yeah, it's about to see a bigger fall not because the place is getting wealthier - it's not, but because the Brits are facing into reduced public sector and fiscal spending.

Plus, there's a fair chance it might actually increase when the EU money dries up and all those 'community' programmes and projects have to rely on funding from Whitehall.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah, it's about to see a bigger fall not because the place is getting wealthier - it's not, but because the Brits are facing into reduced public sector and fiscal spending.

Plus, there's a fair chance it might actually increase when the EU money dries up and all those 'community' programmes and projects have to rely on funding from Whitehall.

So, re-finance seems to be becoming the new game in town.
Unify and restructure the whole package within the EU.
A root and branch reboot for the whole island instead of this nonsense about the south 'taking over' the north (that will ignite some Never Never rubbish and wrecking their own areas belligerents).
Everyone wins.

Zerbini Blewitt

1. Sacrifice for the tribal asylum aspect:-
Regarding the possibility / threat of a low/medium level ongoing violent loyalist response after a democratic decision for a UI in both jurisdictions:-

Agree to let the British (or successor state) Army be the ultimate guarantors for the local defence of the area of the current NI for up to 99 years purely in order to prevent the wounds of the recent or entire late medieval 408 year clusterf*ck from re-opening or from having any reason to re-open (in a similar principle to the 1922-1938 treaty ports or the Hong Kong lease).

2. Sacrifice for cost:
€7,500 per household per anum is of course way too high. How about if it were €500 per household per anum for 20 years???

e.g. If the rUK agreed to medium term tapered funding…to eventually be rid of this accursed Crown pledge…

(in the case that they didn’t – well we could veto the deal and the UK would be stuck with NI:- and that’s only fair).

plus EU temporary medium term funding

I think that would be worth it.

Anyway, ‘they’ always say that the finances of a country are different to the finances of a grocery shop.

Long term financing: 30-50 years -- inflate away a lot of it, things like that???

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, re-finance seems to be becoming the new game in town.
Unify and restructure the whole package within the EU.
A root and branch reboot for the whole island instead of this nonsense about the south 'taking over' the north (that will ignite some Never Never rubbish and wrecking their own areas belligerents).
Everyone wins.

Yeah sure why not? And if the Shinners plant enough of their magic money trees we'll have enough roots and branches to cover the €10 to €12 billion we'll need to fund the place......

.......by the way, if someone is paying billions for something they are most definitely "taking it over" - when NI can wash its own face the politicians there can talk about re-unification in any way they want.

jjbrien

The north as far as I remeber is propped up by a lot of british public sector jobs. We would not have need for that as we dont have the population for them to service. Maybe if they worked for the EU it might help their case to be part of a united Ireland. I for one would miss the old Northern Ireland shopping.

ToddyDoody

I'd settle for being able to visit Belfast as a normal person and not as a 'Taig' who's very presence must be challenged.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah sure why not? And if the Shinners plant enough of their magic money trees we'll have enough roots and branches to cover the €10 to €12 billion we'll need to fund the place......

.......by the way, if someone is paying billions for something they are most definitely "taking it over" - when NI can wash its own face the politicians there can talk about re-unification in any way they want.

Well, there is a case to be made that the problem in both jurisdictions has been 'magic money trees'.
Just depends on how you want to look at it and which political spectacles you look at it through.

There is no point talking about this notional cost of the north (billuns and billuns) now. It is mostly partitionists waving around big scary figures hoping their worst nightmares will go away.

There will have to be a proper analysis done before we can even begin to get a sense of the costs and benefits. But the logic of 'one unified island, one government' makes complete sense and always did.

FrancieBrady

ToddyDoody wrote: »

I'd settle for being able to visit Belfast as a normal person and not as a 'Taig' who's very presence must be challenged.

Not been to Belfast much have you? :rolleyes:

StudentDad

These pie in the sky notions about NI seceding from the UK really are something. I can't see the Unionist population or for that matter the Nationalist crowd signing up for it any time soon. Brexit or no Brexit.

SD

ToddyDoody

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not been to Belfast much have you? :rolleyes:

No I have, but I wouldn't get too comfortable.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, there is a case to be made that the problem in both jurisdictions has been 'magic money trees'.
Just depends on how you want to look at it and which political spectacles you look at it through.

There is no point talking about this notional cost of the north (billuns and billuns) now. It is mostly partitionists waving around big scary figures hoping their worst nightmares will go away.

There will have to be a proper analysis done before we can even begin to get a sense of the costs and benefits. But the logic of 'one unified island, one government' makes complete sense and always did.

There's no 'notional cost' - its real money that HM Treasury has to find each year to pay for the place.....

Northern Ireland residents pay taxes directly to the UK Government. The UK Government then allocates the funding to its departments and the devolved administrations. The taxes generated within Northern Ireland are considerably less than the level of funding received from HM Treasury — the shortfall made up by a subvention.

Further figures are provided by the Net Fiscal Balance report, produced by the Department of Finance (UK). The latest estimate, for 2013-14, is a fiscal deficit of £9.2 billion.

Assuming HM Government stop sending the welfare cheques, who do you think will be picking up the tab?

AnGaelach

voz es wrote: »

I was thinking about this since it is quite relevant right now. I'm thinking about how we would manage to integrate the 6 counties back into our country, if it ever occurred.

I think myself that it wont only be the €6000 tax per a household that I being told by others about but genuine steps will need to be made in order to integrate the whole of Ulster.

I think myself that if it were to occur the whole of parliament would need to be moved to Belfast. Could we continue to call the Garda the Garda?

So what would you be willing to sacrifice for a 32 counties?

Oh and I realise in advance I'm leaving my self quite open for abuse, but then I think about Martin McGuinness reaching across the table with his arm out reached.

There's very little I wouldn't give for a united, independent Ireland, honestly. I'd have no real issue with moving the seat of the Oireachtas to Belfast, though I'd prefer if it stayed in Dublin. We could move the seat of the President to Belfast instead.

Hell, if it came down to it, I wouldn't really object to making Belfast the capital if that's what it took. There's a few countries who have cities larger than their capital city - Turkey, Canada, Australia, Brazil, Switzerland.

AnGaelach

Jawgap wrote: »

Assuming HM Government stop sending the welfare cheques, who do you think will be picking up the tab?

I think it's a bit of an incorrect argument to make, if we're being honest. When the two Germanys unified, the German Central Bank actually had to increase interest rates because West Germany was booming having bought up hundreds of East German companies. Even alongside the massive wealth transfers going into investment in the former East Germany, the West was experiencing increased growth.

While the effect in the Republic might not necessarily be to the same degree, there quite likely would be a similar effect, as more productive Republic-based companies buy out inefficient Northern ones and streamline their companies.

There's also the fact that Northern Ireland's GDP would equate to around €43 billion (by their most recent estimates). That's a 14% increase in Ireland's GDP (forget about tax inversions and the 8% growth), without accounting for any of the increase in economic activity.

While there's an obvious argument regarding the security nature and the shortfall in finances, I don't think it's as severe an issue as it is being made out to be by West Brits.

AnGaelach

The argument that somehow Northern Ireland needs to be economically self-sufficient before we'll accept it is a thoroughly ridiculous one. The only region outside of Dublin that is self-sufficient is Cork. Dublin effectively subsidises and props up the rest of the country. Should we just kick out every other county and consider ourselves better off for it? To think so is utterly ridiculous.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no 'notional cost' - its real money that HM Treasury has to find each year to pay for the place.....





Assuming HM Government stop sending the welfare cheques, who do you think will be picking up the tab?

Only three regions in the UK pay their way (London, the South East and the East of England) and the UK itself is in deficit.

Within these 'billuns and billuns' touted by those who like to scaremonger are all sorts of waste, potential savings and money that doesn't need to be spent at all.

That is what I mean by a proper analysis of this 'notional cost'. It's jumping the gun to start ranting about that figure.

Re: picking up the tab: there may be initial costs but if it eventually leads to a benefit (which I can't see how it wouldn't if you apply the logic of 'one island, one government') why would it be an inhibitor?

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only three regions in the UK pay their way (London, the South East and the East of England) and the UK itself is in deficit.

Within these 'billuns and billuns' touted by those who like to scaremonger are all sorts of waste, potential savings and money that doesn't need to be spent at all.

That is what I mean by a proper analysis of this 'notional cost'. It's jumping the gun to start ranting about that figure.

Re: picking up the tab: there may be initial costs but if it eventually leads to a benefit (which I can't see how it wouldn't if you apply the logic of 'one island, one government') why would it be an inhibitor?

Ah look, do your usual and twist and twist and twist......according to FactCheckNI, per the quotes above, the fact remains.....

The taxes generated within Northern Ireland are considerably less than the level of funding received from HM Treasury — the shortfall made up by a subvention.

Now, feel free to continue your whataboutery......

ToddyDoody

AnGaelach wrote: »

Dublin effectively subsidises and props up the rest of the country.

I kinda grow weary of this line. It seems it does when things are going well but tanks by far the greatest when the bubble bursts.

AnGaelach

ToddyDoody wrote: »

I kinda grow weary of this line. It seems it does when things are going well but tanks by far the greatest when the bubble bursts.

Then you should surely favour reunification, Belfast is the only other region that could be a contending counterweight to Dublin.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah look, do your usual and twist and twist and twist......according to FactCheckNI, per the quotes above, the fact remains.....



Now, feel free to continue your whataboutery......

There are no savings to made, no money that doesn't need to be spent at all?

What is twisting about saying that? You have NO idea what the final cost will be.

wonderfullife

If you asked this question of most Irish people for hundreds of years, they would have answered in terms of the amount of blood they would shed. Nowadays, it's a financial question.

That's progress.

1915: "Ireland unfree shall never be at peace".
2017: "Meh. If it costs me money feck no!!!".

Journey from Sinn Fein to Mé Féin.

Still, quite sad in some respects.

ToddyDoody

AnGaelach wrote: »

Then you should surely favour reunification, Belfast is the only other region that could be a contending counterweight to Dublin.

I suppose I'm a bit like 'what will it do for me, personally?' Answer: not much but for the sake of the Irish living in the north it would be a good thing.

Yeah something like Journey from Sinn Fein to Mé Féin, only I wasn't alive for the real republican bit.